International Nesties
Publius
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I think maybe H isn't ready for kids
We had the following conversation last week:
H--I can't stand it when kids are running around business class. I pay good money for those seats and shoul be entitled to some sleep.
Publius--You don't pay anything for those seats. Your company does.
H--It's the principle of the thing. When we have kids they're flying economy.
Publius--I have no problem with that. When we're flying for home leave or at any other time your company is paying for tickets I'll take the business class seat they buy me and you can go sit with the kid in economy.
H--I didn't mean that. The kid can sit back in economy by itself.
Publius--You can't leave an infant unattended on a plane. Or anywhere for that matter.
H--Well, from the age of four then.
Publius--I don't think you understand the way this whole parenting thing works.
In his defense this conversation occurred in a pretty upscale bar there was a five year old running wind sprints around our table while his parents chatted at the complete opposite end of the bar and paid no attention to him whatsoever.
Re: I think maybe H isn't ready for kids
Sorry, after working in the airport for two years, I am on Team Husband for this one.
I have become firmly entrenched in the "children should be seen and not heard" camp.
Are you serious? Sorry, I roll my eyes big time on this. Big.Time. Do you think people with kids shouldn't fly until their kids are teenagers?
Yeah, I think this is also sparked by a bad experience he's had in the past year of parents on a plane just not giving a damn. On the Air Asia flight we took to Christchurch there was a kid who looked to be about seven who was climbing barefoot over a bunch of seats. He jumped over the back of the seat in front of us and landed on H's drink, spilling it everywhere including on his iPad. The kid's parents were in another row reading and ignoring him. H gave him a death glare and said something along the lines of, "chairs are not jungle gyms". The kid seemed shocked that someone told him no.
I think parents should not allow their children to run screaming around an airport, I do not think parents should allow their children to spread food from one end of a restaurant to another and not clean it up. I do not think parents should allow their children to puke all over my tables and chairs, not say anything to staff and then just walk away when the plane is ready to board.
Oh, and that was just on Friday.
On Thursday, there was a kid screaming so badly they wouldn't let them even board the plane.
And I refuse to believe this is the norm, and we travel often. We pick up food off the floor of the restaurant when we go out. We don't let our kids run around, we don't let them scream, and I can not believe that someone would let their kids puke on tables and chairs and not say a word.
Sorry, I just find it hard to believe when people say stories like this (not you specifically, this is a general statement) as a reason kids should not fly. We travel, my dad flies several times a week, often overseas, and has for years and years and even he says he never sees kids act like this, that maybe once or twice in his 30 years of weekly flying has he seen kids acting badly on planes.
Every single parent I know goes out of their way to ensure their child doesn't cause a mess or ruckus on a plane. I can guarantee you that it is entirely more stressful and horrible to fly as the parent than as a random passenger. I promise you.
You are welcome to come to work with me for a week. This is my day every.single.day. I've seen kids screaming and running around so badly, the AFP (Australian Federal Police) have started questioning the parents.
My boss, who is apparently a bigger witch than I am, actually handed a mother a broom as she was getting ready to walk away and made her clean up the mess.
As a parent I can give the kid a punishment. As a random passenger I can only give you death stares.
ETA: I keep telling my boss that we should make a policy that a chocolate muffin can't be sold to any party that has members younger than 25 in it. I have to pull out the vacuum cleaner every single time a toddler eats a muffin, and they grind those crumbs right into the upholstery.
So people shouldn't be allowed to eat anything that could make a mess in a restaurant?
This whole thing just rubs me the wrong way. Unless Australian children are all heathens this is just not the way most kids and families are, so to make a statement that kids should be seen and not heard is ridiculous.
Why? A ticket in business class guarantees you more space, better food, it doesn't guarantee you a child free flight or even a quiet flight. If someone with kids is willing to pay for the seats (or more likely upgrade) then why shouldn't they be allowed? I can tell you from personal experience that cocky businessmen can have a meltdown as well, and they are just as unpleasant as a child.
Sorry, I get really worked up over this issue because of how much fly and how discriminated kids are on planes.
Because if I am in a TGI Fridays and James has a meltdown I am going to get embarrassed, but I can deal with it, whereas if I am in a 5 star restaurant and James has a meltdown I will probably have a nervous breakdown. If I go to a TGI Fridays then I expect kids to be there, its a family restaurant, but if I go to a 5 star restaurant then I don't want kids there, I am there to enjoy the fanciness that goes with it and a quiet night with my husband. Same goes for the plane... although I have never flown business class, so I am just assuming that it is a lot nicer than economy.
It is not a lot nicer than economy. It is not a 5 star restaurant vs Fridays, it is bigger seats, more attention, free drinks and food more often, and better food.
I guess the assumption that ALL kids will have a meltdown at some point is what bothers me. If you (collectively) know your child may have one then that makes sense why you wouldn't personally choose to fly business. But to say no kids should fly in business class is a blanket statement I cant get behind - and haven't, since we have flown business class overseas with the kids.
The "I paid good money, kids belong in economy" mentality sounds a bit elitist and self-righteous to me. Plus it's all relative. My economy ticket costs me good money. The fact that it's called "economy" doesn't mean it's cheap and it's not like the whole economy class deserves to be disturbed because there happen to be others who can afford to spend more than us. Money can get you (general you) more room on the plane but it's not going to guarantee you a disturbance free experience or wipe out all humanity for your own little comfort. If you want a millionaire-like flight in complete quietude then flying with a private jet is the way to go. Of course, I think that 1) children should be well behaved (I appreciate when they are) and 2) sometimes they're just having "a moment", like all human beings.
eta - this came across a bit b*tchy, sorry, wasn't my intention!
I'd prefer no kids ont he plane period but until that airline appears you just have to suck it up and realise that everyone is entitled to their seat on the plane whether it be in first class or the baggage hold.
I would love an airline to bring in a special kids class- kind of like the first/business class bit (is it a bar?) that is on the second level of the plane- which is sound proof but totally kid friendly. That way those who have also paid for a seat can have some peace and quiet.
But I agree bad parents are everywhere as are badly behaved kids. Parents should be more responsible for their children. I certainly don't appreciate my meal being disrupted by a naughty child.
I had a family kicked out of a Harry Potter screening because their 4 year old was climbing the rows of seats in front of me and talking. The mum started pitching a fit and swearing at me for getting the usher (so yeah don't really balme the kid when you have parents like that) and the whole audience errupted in applause when they were asked to leave with shouts of about time and thanks! I think most people feel that way about badly behaved kids and thier parents but few people will do anything about it because of the fear of being called mean, a witch etc.
I love every parenting comment I read from you, Fricb.
I understand being frustrated when kids are in places they aren't supposed to be, but airplanes, airports, and many other places aren't adults only. The thing that drives me most insane are the many adults who get upset just SEEING a kid/toddler/baby on an airplane. Most parents do what they can to keep their kids entertained without bothering other people and when I get someone who rolls their eye as soon as they see me with a baby, I feel like I've lost before I ever started.
Actually, Rynair is now offering child-free flights on their most frequently flown stretches.
This would be awesome. I would totally book a seat there because then I wouldn't have additional anxiety (besides my regular petrified-of-flying anxiety) that DD was going to act up on the flight and resist all attempts to calm her.
I think parents should do their best to keep their kids well-behaved, but kids are kids, and as I think any parent will agree, there are times when you simply can't control them no matter how good of a parent you are. That doesn't mean you should ignore them and let them run wild, but I think if my baby is screaming and I'm obviously doing my best to comfort her (rocking her, offering her a bottle, walking with her if we're not restricted to our seats, etc), then I shouldn't get dirty looks.
As for the restaurant comparison, in my eyes it simply doesn't hold. If we go to a restaurant, we can hire a babysitter or, if the child is misbehaving, get the food packed up, pay the bill, and leave. Not so for trans-oceanic flights. Row boats over the Atlantic are simply not practical. We have to fly. Really, I will do my level best to keep my kid from annoying the other passengers, but on a 9-hour flight, I can pretty much guarantee she'll scream or whine for at LEAST 30 min of it despite my best efforts.
Meh, I can see both sides.
Even the other evening we were walking around looking for somewhere to eat in a rather posh area and neither of us were comfortable taking the twins into any of the restaurants that seemed intimate, expensive or a bit higher class because we felt as though we would possibly be disturbing the other patrons. For those of you that have met the twins, they're not bad kids by any means (at least, I'm assuming). They don't scream in restaurants, they make a bit of a mess on the floor but we clean it up as best as we can, they don't yell or throw things around. However, if we're out without our kids and want to have a nice, quiet meal together we wouldn't want to be surrounded by young kids either. It's just a different dynamic.
I'm hardly saying that families with young kids should limit themselves to fast food chains and restaurants with colouring books, but be aware of your surroundings and that not everyone is thrilled to see young kids at their nice meal out and that's okay. I personally feel much more comfortable taking my kids to somewhere where people expect to see young kids and I feel far less stressed during the meal.
It's the same to me as flying - would I prefer to fly in business class? Of course, yes, who wouldn't. Would I do it with my kids? Probably, yes. But, if I were flying in business class without my kids and I saw young kids there I'd probably roll my eyes too in anticipation of a long, disruptive flight. Would my assumption be accurate? It depends on the family, but enough people have experienced nightmare children and families on flights to form those assumptions, so I can see both sides.
Goddamn, this is a novel. Sorry.
AMrsin09 - I get that you see a lot of nightmare families travelling where you work - you can see it everywhere. And although I think that the whole children should be seen and not heard thing is a bit harsh and blanketing, I see absolutely no justification for a child in a restaurant to be running around away from their table, unless there is a play area and a hired clown. My kids make an ungodly mess around the table - not from flinging food about like wild monkeys but because they're little and not so great yet at getting the food in their mouths every time - but we always offer to clean it up, or at the very least apologise for the mess and thank the staff.
We went out with another twin family for lunch ONCE (never, ever again) and their 2 year old twins were awful. Actually, the whole experience was so completely and utterly awful that we'll never even go back to that restaurant! Oh my god, it was just brutal. First we had to get our double buggy into the restaurant and bumped into every chair on the way in, then we had to store it somewhere which was in the way of the wait staff. Then their 3 year old had a fit about the colour of crayons that she was given. Then someone knocked over some pop. Then their twins launched knives across the aisle and banged on the table with forks like drumsticks. Then Lochie threw up all over the table. And me. Kaitie had a meltdown. Their twins threw their plates on the floor and broke them. Their 3 year old had another meltdown and threw her bowl across the table at their mother. Juice was spilt, tears flowed freely (mine) and I couldn't get out of there quickly enough. However, this was "just another meal out" for the other mother and I was absolutely horrified.
Anyway, we often get very nice and much appreciated compliments on the behaviour of the girls when we are out and it's because we have learned to deal with them and that we take them to appropriate places, I think. Or, inappropriate places at appropriate times, I guess. But I still just tell people that they've been drugged - just to see the look on their faces. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
I think you shouldnt compare a restaurant with an airplane. A lot of people need to take airplanes for work or to visit family. You dont have to go out to eat. I dont think there is anything work about bringing kids on airplanes and I feel sorry for parents who feel that they judged when they bring their kids. I totally agree, that it is horrible when parents dont try to control their kids but I think the majority of parents do try to control them. The airplane ride is a mode of transporation, not part of your vacation.
I actually dont care if parents bring their kids to fancy restaurants as long as they remove the child if they start to act up. Perhaps, it would be better if they went early to avoid crowds but I dont think we should ban kids from most places. Children learn how to behave by being put in these types of situations.
I think you can in a way, because chances are that the people who let their children run buck wild in restaurants (or any public setting) are probably the same ones that let their children run buck wild on an airplane while the parents take sleeping pills.
In the end it comes down to parenting and your kids. The same parents that teach their kids to behave well in a restaurant, bring things to occupy their children (if that's how you roll), plan a restaurant outing at a time that works for their kids (not having dinner at say, 9pm) and deal with their kids appropriately at said restaurant are probably the same ones that plan their flights for overnights (if possible), bring things to occupy their kids (and not the noisiest toy they can think of), bring snacks for their munchkins, etc. and basically prepare as best as possible for their kid to be in a small space for hours on end.
I'm thinking as well that the chances are good that the typical parents in business class on a plane are the ones that are conscious of their children's behaviour, given the typical demographic of business class travellers and their reasons for travelling. But I could be completely wrong.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
I don't know, I was surprised with the behavior of some of the kids and parents I saw in the Iberia Lounge in Madrid. It wasn't the Spanish kids, either. I felt like I was seeing what complete entitlement can create.
Living here in Spain, kids go everywhere. I think that's great, it's just up to the parents to teach their kids. The other thing is (and I was reading a ML thread about something similar this morning and I was surprised to see a culturally different point of view) that it seems to be ok for strangers to intervene in: 1. entertaining the kid or 2. if the kid is out of line and away from the parents, mom and dad don't tend to get that angry if you say something to the kid.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
No, you made a good point. It's just that when things are bad with said demographic it can be really bad.
I will be honest, j_jaye, I don't know anything about you, where you live, if you have kids, etc (although based on this I am going to assume no). What I do know is that I have seen you post on the travel board, and you have talked about traveling with your parents, obviously as a child, so this is really surprising to me that you think this way. If kids weren't allowed on planes then you would not have had any of the travel experiences that you had growing up, nor would I. I have been traveling internationally since I was 2, and have been to 60+ countries. I would like to extend that same opportunity to my children, and we have been doing so. It is not done because we want to ruin someone elses flight, or stress them out when we simply walk on the plane.
I think you misunderstand how flying with children works. You do know you pay for children's seats as well right? They don't fly for free? Even lap children don't fly for free internationally, you pay a (large) percentage of the taxes for the luxury of having to hold them on your lap for 9 or 10 hours or however long.
I think if we have a special kids class we should also have an overweight class, a loud talker class, a snorer class, a drunk passenger class, etc. While I think this idea is good in theory (and most parents likely would appreciate it) let's not kid ourselves that kids are the only ones who cause a disturbance on planes by any stretch.
IMO, business class isn't sacrosanct. I'd much prefer to be sitting in a row behind a parent and child where the parent is actually engaged and trying than a drunken loudmouth businessman. IME, the former is generally the case and the latter has happened more times than I can count.
Also, I would rather sit next to a child than Jedward. My H flew back from Cape Town in a combined first/business with them and said they were a nightmare to be around--super loud and obnoxious.
ETA: What I don't understand is H wanting to give up three business class seats for a 37 hour door to door trip. I also don't understand the, "people pay good money for seats" argument because the kid would have its own seat, and I don't see why money should entitle one person to a seat but not a smaller person in another seat.
Publius, you certainly opened a can of worms :-)
Your H's idea of leaving the child in economy I'd funny. I'm guessing he's never really been around kids... That'll change when you have your own kids!
Everything changes when you have your own kids. Suddenly things that other kids did will not bother you so much when your kids do them. He will love those kids so much he will not want to be away from them, he will want to protect them and sit with them.
OR he could be one one of those deadbeat guys who will be an awful parent. I hope you know which one he is before you have kids.
Are you for real? What a crappy thing to say to someone who made an off hand comment about not wanting kids to be in business class.
Actually you aren't entitled to a pleasant flight. You are entitled to get from point a to point b, with some drinks and food thrown in there. Nowhere on any ticket does it say you are guaranteed a pleasant flight. Of course I don't think a child has more rights - but neither does an adult.
And I don't think my answers are influenced by the fact I have kids. As I said earlier I have been traveling for my whole life, and it has never once occurred to me that kids shouldn't fly. Ever. Before I had kids, now, anytime. As long as the seat is paid for I don't care who is in it. This is what happens when you want to travel, when you have family overseas, etc. You put up with having to share a small space with hundreds of strangers for many hours so you can get somewhere. At the end of the day it is just that, hours. You aren't required to continue your vacation with these people, you aren't asked to share a hotel room or go out to a meal, you are all stuck in a crappy plane (even when in business or first) trying to get somewhere for some specific reason. Whoever is on the plane with me is inconsequential.