XP from ML IVF babies born to an American woman not eligible for US Citizenship

MeredithE

NO words just

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/47073090/ns/today-today_news/

 

Ellie Lavi, an American citizen living in Israel, wanted her children to be American as well, despite the fact that they were born in Israel. But her twin daughters, Maya and Shira, now 2 ? years old, are unable to gain status as U.S. citizens. Lavi, a single mother in her 40s, used a donor sperm and egg from a clinic in Israel to conceive her children through in-vitro fertilization. Now, the U.S. State Department is refusing to grant citizenship to her children because she is unable to prove that any of the donors are American citizens.

pixy_stix

Without reading the article, I thought only one parent had to be american.

Y4M

pixy_stix:

Without reading the article, I thought only one parent had to be american.

I guess both the eggs and sperm are donated.  So they can't prove any biological parents are US citizens, even though the mother carrying them is.  Interesting. 

ringstrue

Children adopted by U.S. citizens or born to foreign citizens in the U.S. are granted status as Americans. However, as Lavi was informed, children born to Americans overseas through in-vitro fertilization are denied American citizenship unless a donor can be proved to be a U.S. citizen. The laws were created to prevent people from fraudulently attaining status as Americans.

guh?? Can someone explain to me exactly how this prevents fraud? 

 

mxolisi

ringstrue:

Children adopted by U.S. citizens or born to foreign citizens in the U.S. are granted status as Americans. However, as Lavi was informed, children born to Americans overseas through in-vitro fertilization are denied American citizenship unless a donor can be proved to be a U.S. citizen. The laws were created to prevent people from fraudulently attaining status as Americans.

guh?? Can someone explain to me exactly how this prevents fraud? 

 

Maybe wealthy foreigners would pay American surrogates to carry their babies? I mean, women from China spend tens of thousands to give birth in the US so I imagine a market exists.  

Y4M

mxolisi:

ringstrue:

Children adopted by U.S. citizens or born to foreign citizens in the U.S. are granted status as Americans. However, as Lavi was informed, children born to Americans overseas through in-vitro fertilization are denied American citizenship unless a donor can be proved to be a U.S. citizen. The laws were created to prevent people from fraudulently attaining status as Americans.

guh?? Can someone explain to me exactly how this prevents fraud? 

 

Maybe wealthy foreigners would pay American surrogates to carry their babies? I mean, women from China spend tens of thousands to give birth in the US so I imagine a market exists.  

That's a really interesting point. 

pixy_stix

Y4M:

pixy_stix:

Without reading the article, I thought only one parent had to be american.

I guess both the eggs and sperm are donated.  So they can't prove any biological parents are US citizens, even though the mother carrying them is.  Interesting. 

I wonder if this is just a case of the laws not being caught up to the times.

marie427

mxolisi:

ringstrue:

Children adopted by U.S. citizens or born to foreign citizens in the U.S. are granted status as Americans. However, as Lavi was informed, children born to Americans overseas through in-vitro fertilization are denied American citizenship unless a donor can be proved to be a U.S. citizen. The laws were created to prevent people from fraudulently attaining status as Americans.

guh?? Can someone explain to me exactly how this prevents fraud? 

 

Maybe wealthy foreigners would pay American surrogates to carry their babies? I mean, women from China spend tens of thousands to give birth in the US so I imagine a market exists.  

Holy shiit, I never thought of this. Guess anything can and does happen.

The article seems to imply that the children are not Israeli citizens either. That really sucks for them.

Alisha_A

Well then, if the egg and sperm donors are of unknown nationality, what if Israel doesn't want to grant citizenship?

 

marie427

I've been thinking about this some more and...if this woman moved to Israel, I would assume she'd have some knowledge about how to acquire Israeli citizenship and any potential roadblocks. Or perhaps, the clinic would have told her that any children born from the donor egg and sperm are not automatically granted Israeli citizenship. Or I guess this woman was just so sure her daughters would become U.S. citizens that she didn't care that they wouldn't automatically be Israeli citizens. It just seems fishy, but it still sucks for these girls to be stateless through no fault of their own.

hindsight's_a_biotch

I can see why the law would say this given that there are surrogate farms in India and other similar methods of procreation as it were.

It is an option for her to legally adopt her own children?

However, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that a child of her body, popped out of her uterus isn't considered her kid because it's that what they're saying? How did the question of conception even come up? Is there a place on the form you check to say yes, I had IVF?

ringstrue

mxolisi:

ringstrue:

Children adopted by U.S. citizens or born to foreign citizens in the U.S. are granted status as Americans. However, as Lavi was informed, children born to Americans overseas through in-vitro fertilization are denied American citizenship unless a donor can be proved to be a U.S. citizen. The laws were created to prevent people from fraudulently attaining status as Americans.

guh?? Can someone explain to me exactly how this prevents fraud? 

 

Maybe wealthy foreigners would pay American surrogates to carry their babies? I mean, women from China spend tens of thousands to give birth in the US so I imagine a market exists.  

But the babies wouldn't legally be the surrogate's anyway, so that situation could have different laws than someone who claims the baby as their own.  And if the bio parents left their offspring there, well the kid still needs citizenship somewhere, right?

what a mess. 

 

 

hopecounts

My question is, in the US the biological mother (the woman who gives birth) is automatically the legal mother.

How is the state department getting around the fact that these are her legal children and as such entitled to citizenship?

If the lack of genetic relationship is the problem could it not be treated similar to a foreign adoption and have her just go through the steps to get them citizenship that way?

marie427

ringstrue:

And if the bio parents left their offspring there, well the kid still needs citizenship somewhere, right?

There are many, many stateless people around the world. These kids were born in a country that (presumably) does not have birthright citizenship like the U.S. does, and in this likely rare situation, the kids being born to an American mother there doesn't help them acquire U.S. citizenship given how they were conceived.

Definitely a mess. 

caden

I'm torn about this. I see why the rule exists, but when the babies are born to a mom who is clearly parenting them (not a surrogate), they should be treated like any other bio baby. Who cares what ethnicity their genes are? Then again the fraud possibilities would probably be easy if all you had to prove for citizenship was who gave birth to a certain baby. I don't love the idea of dual citizenship anyway, so I'm inclined to think she should move here for the half year it takes and go through the hoops, if it's that important to her. I also have her same stroller. Just felt like that was important to mention

hopecounts

majorwife:

hopecounts:

My question is, in the US the biological mother (the woman who gives birth) is automatically the legal mother.

How is the state department getting around the fact that these are her legal children and as such entitled to citizenship?

If the lack of genetic relationship is the problem could it not be treated similar to a foreign adoption and have her just go through the steps to get them citizenship that way?

I don't think this is true is every state. I am considering doing a surrogacy and I know IL and maybe one other state, the baby will NOT legally be mine even though I birth it. IL is very surrogacy friendly in that regard, since other states would make the genetic mother and father adopt. There are horror stories of the adoption being rejected at the last minute and the surrogate being stuck with a baby they don't want and can't give it to their genetic family.

It's not that the bio mom isn't the legal mom in Illinois it's that surrogacy agreements are recognized so the IM is able to be listed as the mom with a certified legal surrogacy agreement.

http://www.gitlin.com/pages/IllinoisBecomesSurrogacyFriendly.html

Sibil

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

Sibil

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

caden

Sibil:

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

But if they're born in the states they're automatically US citizens, even if both parents for sure aren't.

frlcb

hindsight's_a_biotch:

However, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that a child of her body, popped out of her uterus isn't considered her kid because it's that what they're saying? How did the question of conception even come up? Is there a place on the form you check to say yes, I had IVF?

4 years ago when we were getting a consular notification of birth abroad for our son in the UK they did not ask on the form if I had IVF.  

ChiChimi

Sibil:

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

Donor eggs and sperm in the US are from US citizens though, right? If genetics dont matter, what stops any person from claiming they were born to a US citizen with nothing to prove that it didnt happen? All they would need is a woman to agree that she birthed them. This situation sucks for this woman but I could see any pathway to citizenship being exploited just as pp mentioned.

marie427

Sibil:

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

The article says that children born outside of the U.S. through IVF to American citizens are the exception to the "genetics don't matter" rule and must prove that at least one biological parent is American.

Knitty

pixy_stix:

Without reading the article, I thought only one parent had to be american.

They're not her eggs, either, and the law in many countries is that it's the donor, not the gestator who carries the citizenship. Think of the reverse, if she were a European gestational surrogate and the intended parents were not European, then baby does not gain European citizenship.

It's usually not a big deal, because you only use one donor, and/or you don't tell the imigration people how the child was conceived. IIRC the question asks if they're your natural born child (we got citizenship for my kids through their father because he had his birth certificate handy at the time).

Knitty

mxolisi:

ringstrue:

Children adopted by U.S. citizens or born to foreign citizens in the U.S. are granted status as Americans. However, as Lavi was informed, children born to Americans overseas through in-vitro fertilization are denied American citizenship unless a donor can be proved to be a U.S. citizen. The laws were created to prevent people from fraudulently attaining status as Americans.

guh?? Can someone explain to me exactly how this prevents fraud? 

 

Maybe wealthy foreigners would pay American surrogates to carry their babies? I mean, women from China spend tens of thousands to give birth in the US so I imagine a market exists.  

No, asking an American citizen man to say they're the father. if they aren't genetically the father then they're not allowed to claim it.

hindsight's_a_biotch

If anything, this is a cautionary tale on not educating yourself on the legalities of your choices.

Sibil

caden:

Sibil:

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

But if they're born in the states they're automatically US citizens, even if both parents for sure aren't.

I get that, but the non bio parents are still easily listed on the birth certificate. If delivered in a us hospital, unless it's clearly surrogacy, the mom who pushed a kid out her vag is the mom, no question of where the egg came from.

Knitty

frlcb:

hindsight's_a_biotch:

However, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that a child of her body, popped out of her uterus isn't considered her kid because it's that what they're saying? How did the question of conception even come up? Is there a place on the form you check to say yes, I had IVF?

4 years ago when we were getting a consular notification of birth abroad for our son in the UK they did not ask on the form if I had IVF.  

it does now (their caps)

"I am a US CItizen parent applying for a Certificate of Citizenship on behalf of my minor (under 18 years of age) BIOLOGICAL child

 I am a US CItizen parent applying for a Certificate of Citizenship on behalf of my minor (under 18 years of age) ADOPTED child"

 

 

Sibil

caden:

Sibil:

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

But if they're born in the states they're automatically US citizens, even if both parents for sure aren't.

I get that, but the non bio parents are still easily listed on the birth certificate. If delivered in a us hospital, unless it's clearly surrogacy, the mom who pushed a kid out her vag is the mom, no question of where the egg came from.

Knitty

Sibil:

caden:

Sibil:

Genetics don't matter. See: adoption. I doubt women who use donor eggs or sperm in the states have trouble establishing parentage.

But if they're born in the states they're automatically US citizens, even if both parents for sure aren't.

I get that, but the non bio parents are still easily listed on the birth certificate. If delivered in a us hospital, unless it's clearly surrogacy, the mom who pushed a kid out her vag is the mom, no question of where the egg came from.

And that's the problem. How would you go about adopting your own kids? The case that brought this up 7 years ago was of an American who was somewhere overseas having IVF with double donors. Something happened and she couldn't return home until the baby was born, but then she was stuck because the baby couldn't come to the US, and she couldn't live anywhere else.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5177.html

Two*True

hopecounts:

majorwife:

hopecounts:

My question is, in the US the biological mother (the woman who gives birth) is automatically the legal mother.

How is the state department getting around the fact that these are her legal children and as such entitled to citizenship?

If the lack of genetic relationship is the problem could it not be treated similar to a foreign adoption and have her just go through the steps to get them citizenship that way?

I don't think this is true is every state. I am considering doing a surrogacy and I know IL and maybe one other state, the baby will NOT legally be mine even though I birth it. IL is very surrogacy friendly in that regard, since other states would make the genetic mother and father adopt. There are horror stories of the adoption being rejected at the last minute and the surrogate being stuck with a baby they don't want and can't give it to their genetic family.

It's not that the bio mom isn't the legal mom in Illinois it's that surrogacy agreements are recognized so the IM is able to be listed as the mom with a certified legal surrogacy agreement.

http://www.gitlin.com/pages/IllinoisBecomesSurrogacyFriendly.html

MW's original point is correct though.  Not every bio-mom is automatically the legalized recognized mom.  It depends on the state.  Some states genetics win and in others states it is whoever carries the baby that wins.

frlcb

Knitty:

frlcb:

hindsight's_a_biotch:

However, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that a child of her body, popped out of her uterus isn't considered her kid because it's that what they're saying? How did the question of conception even come up? Is there a place on the form you check to say yes, I had IVF?

4 years ago when we were getting a consular notification of birth abroad for our son in the UK they did not ask on the form if I had IVF.  

it does now (their caps)

"I am a US CItizen parent applying for a Certificate of Citizenship on behalf of my minor (under 18 years of age) BIOLOGICAL child

 I am a US CItizen parent applying for a Certificate of Citizenship on behalf of my minor (under 18 years of age) ADOPTED child"

 

 

This doesn't ask about IVF, rather biological vs adopted. Surely had the mom just check biological all of this would have been avoided.