Which is more dangerous

3.27.04_Helper

me who thinks the world is collapsing and we are about to fall into a theocracy where I'll be forced to bear unwanted children or Nerdicorn's thought that we are no where close to such a state?

notquiteblushing

Well I always err on the side of panic, but I have an anxiety disorder.

But for real, I've always liked the quote "if you're not outraged, you're not paying attention" and think it applies.

laptopprancer

I'll have to see what my husband says.

 

hindsight's_a_biotch

I vote for your arm flailing since this level of hyperbole makes people dismissive of the reality of the effect and scope of recent proposed/passed legislation.

jenniloveselvis

You're both perfect examples of the extremes. However the head-sand ideology tends to scare me just a little bit more.

BQBride

I'm sorry, I can't hear you through  my burqa.  Can I get some earholes cut in this thing? 

jenniloveselvis

BQBride:

I'm sorry, I can't hear you through  my burqa.  Can I get some earholes cut in this thing? 

 

nope - you're uncovered ears will send men into rampaging madness. Cause you know, they're ears.

Nerdicornss

Well, for me personally, this says a lot of it:

 

I'm glad that fear-mongering and voicing severely polarizing hyperbole makes you feel better than say, donating to Planned Parenthood or political movements/pushes, though. It's definitely a lot cheaper and everyone can see just how mad you are. It's also about as helpful as Republicans who start shrieking about 1984 and animal farm when the Dems push for public option healthcare, so there's that to keep in mind too.

DruidPrincess

Nerdicornss:

I'm glad that fear-mongering and voicing severely polarizing hyperbole makes you feel better than say, donating to Planned Parenthood or political movements/pushes, though. It's definitely a lot cheaper and everyone can see just how mad you are. 

Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive?   

3.27.04_Helper

Nerdicornss:

Well, for me personally, this says it all:

 

I'm glad that fear-mongering and voicing severely polarizing hyperbole makes you feel better than say, donating to Planned Parenthood or political movements/pushes, though. It's definitely a lot cheaper and everyone can see just how mad you are.

I donate too much to PP. It causes DH to get frustrated with me.

Nerdicornss

jenniloveselvis:

You're both perfect examples of the extremes. However the head-sand ideology tends to scare me just a little bit more.

I'm pro-choice as they come, I just also find it stupid as shii!t to start screaming that the current push for state's rights re: abortion means we're living in the same world where you're raped for procreation against your will and another couple gets that baby and tough shii!t or we kill you (oh and when you're not fertile we kill you too). 

This is a really good example of the other day when I said PCE makes me feel like I'm a conservative despite the fact that I'm pretty liberal commie pinko. I don't think hyperbole is ever helpful, and is actually pretty damaging. I'm all about sanity and reason and not trying to equate every swing in politics to some novel about a dystopian future.

laptopprancer

 I'm all about sanity and reason

lol you may want to try iVilliage

 

hindsight's_a_biotch

I wouldn't worry about the Handmaiden's Tale. The way we're going, we won't have the money to keep women out of the workforce, much less finance the fertile ones living in isolation.

Nerdicornss

laptopprancer:

 I'm all about sanity and reason

lol you may want to try iVilliage

 

 

hindsight's_a_biotch

Did you just pull a Godwin's law?

laurenpetro

Nerdicornss:

jenniloveselvis:

You're both perfect examples of the extremes. However the head-sand ideology tends to scare me just a little bit more.

I'm pro-choice as they come, I just also find it stupid as shii!t to start screaming that the current push for state's rights re: abortion means we're living in the same world where you're raped for procreation against your will and another couple gets that baby and tough shii!t or we kill you (oh and when you're not fertile we kill you too). 

This is a really good example of the other day when I said PCE makes me feel like I'm a conservative despite the fact that I'm pretty liberal commie pinko. I don't think hyperbole is ever helpful, and is actually pretty damaging. I'm all about sanity and reason and not trying to equate every swing in politics to some novel about a dystopian future.

thanks for ruining the book.

jenniloveselvis

swimbikepuke:

Nerdicornss:

jenniloveselvis:

You're both perfect examples of the extremes. However the head-sand ideology tends to scare me just a little bit more.

I'm pro-choice as they come, I just also find it stupid as shii!t to start screaming that the current push for state's rights re: abortion means we're living in the same world where you're raped for procreation against your will and another couple gets that baby and tough shii!t or we kill you (oh and when you're not fertile we kill you too). 

This is a really good example of the other day when I said PCE makes me feel like I'm a conservative despite the fact that I'm pretty liberal commie pinko. I don't think hyperbole is ever helpful, and is actually pretty damaging. I'm all about sanity and reason and not trying to equate every swing in politics to some novel about a dystopian future.

I think political movement involve context.  I think we gain that context from everything from history to cleaning products.  Which includes dystopian novels.  The Handmaid's Tale is an important novel in the same way 1984 is an important novel.  And in the same way that Bleak House is an important novel.  They help us examine the significance of the way things are through the lens of what could be and what has been.  It is good to be a student of literature.  It is good to be a student of history.  It is good to know when looking at some of the legislation in Arizona, that the Nazis also liked to ask for people's "papers."  It is good to know, when looking at some of the legislation in Indiana and Oklahoma, that one hypothetical version of State control of women's reproduction involves women essentially not being people.  It is good to know, when looking at Obama's citizen surveillance programs what Orson Welle's version of a life without the 4th Amendment looked like.  

I think helper knows she's being a bit hyperbolic (?).  But you're being intentionally obtuse, so that's not exactly worth celebrating.  And frankly, laws that make prenatal testing illegal, or that require women to file a police report of rape prior to being permitted to get an abortion have a whole lot more in common with The Handmaid's Tale, than they do with ridiculous counterproductive hyperbole. 

You are so amazingly eloquent. I'm glad I "know" you. 

hindsight's_a_biotch

It seems to me it's okay to invoke hyperbole and other shitty debate methods IF it supports the right conclusion. So carry on, with your bad, oh so eloquent self. Lord knows a dissenting opinion isn't worth shiit around here if you haven't taken Con Law.

laptopprancer

Nerdicornss:

laptopprancer:

 I'm all about sanity and reason

lol you may want to try iVilliage

 

 

lmao!! you are a nerd, I like it.

 

hindsight's_a_biotch

swimbikepuke:

Well, have you at least read the book? 

Twice, yes. Once recently. I bought it for TIP book club.

laptopprancer

swimbikepuke:

Nerdicornss:

jenniloveselvis:

You're both perfect examples of the extremes. However the head-sand ideology tends to scare me just a little bit more.

I'm pro-choice as they come, I just also find it stupid as shii!t to start screaming that the current push for state's rights re: abortion means we're living in the same world where you're raped for procreation against your will and another couple gets that baby and tough shii!t or we kill you (oh and when you're not fertile we kill you too). 

This is a really good example of the other day when I said PCE makes me feel like I'm a conservative despite the fact that I'm pretty liberal commie pinko. I don't think hyperbole is ever helpful, and is actually pretty damaging. I'm all about sanity and reason and not trying to equate every swing in politics to some novel about a dystopian future.

I think political movement involve context.  I think we gain that context from everything from history to cleaning products.  Which includes dystopian novels.  The Handmaid's Tale is an important novel in the same way 1984 is an important novel.  And in the same way that Bleak House is an important novel.  They help us examine the significance of the way things are through the lens of what could be and what has been.  It is good to be a student of literature.  It is good to be a student of history.  It is good to know when looking at some of the legislation in Arizona, that the Nazis also liked to ask for people's "papers."  It is good to know, when looking at some of the legislation in Indiana and Oklahoma, that one hypothetical version of State control of women's reproduction involves women essentially not being people.  It is good to know, when looking at Obama's citizen surveillance programs what Orson Welle's version of a life without the 4th Amendment looked like.  

I think helper knows she's being a bit hyperbolic (?).  But you're being intentionally obtuse, so that's not exactly worth celebrating.  And frankly, laws that make prenatal testing illegal, or that require women to file a police report of rape prior to being permitted to get an abortion have a whole lot more in common with The Handmaid's Tale, than they do with ridiculous counterproductive hyperbole.  

 

well said, sbp

 

hindsight's_a_biotch

There is a vast wasteland between a cautionary tale that relates to modern times and OMG, WE"RE GOING TO WAKE UP TOMORROW AND FIND OURSELVES WITH NO VALUE BEYOND THAT OF OUR UTERUS FUUK THE REPUBLICANS!

And I am pointing and laughing at the notion that helper was trying to start a meaningful conversation on anything. I don't apologize for that.

However, I will not get into a discussion with you that starts at the point that anyone who is any measure of pro-life wants to cut women off from their sexual identity or dimish their status as a woman. It's demeaning and insulting and no less patronizing and paternalistic than any other war on women topic.

nitaw

swimbikepuke:

 You think laws that would prohibit abortions after 6 weeks are not a step to and a symptom of cutting women off from their sexual selves or trying to pull them away from personhood?  I mean, I disagree with that if it's your position, but at least it's a position.  All you've done up to this point is point and laugh.  

 

Can we talk about this? Because this infuriates me. Most women don't even KNOW they are pregnant at six weeks. I wouldn't have known if I wasn't actively TTC. I had enough implantation spotting to mistake it for a light menstrual cycle. By limiting access, you are basically denying the right have an abortion. 

IAmMalcolmX

DownToEarthGirl

nitaw:

swimbikepuke:

 You think laws that would prohibit abortions after 6 weeks are not a step to and a symptom of cutting women off from their sexual selves or trying to pull them away from personhood?  I mean, I disagree with that if it's your position, but at least it's a position.  All you've done up to this point is point and laugh.  

 

Can we talk about this? Because this infuriates me. Most women don't even KNOW they are pregnant at six weeks. I wouldn't have known if I wasn't actively TTC. I had enough implantation spotting to mistake it for a light menstrual cycle. By limiting access, you are basically denying the right have an abortion. 

Even when I was trying to get pregnant, I didn't know at 6 weeks. 

As for the extremes, I know rationally, that it doesn't really help anyone issue to be so polarized, but damned if I can't help but feel very extreme on some issues. 

 

BQBride

hindsight's_a_biotch:

However, I will not get into a discussion with you that starts at the point that anyone who is any measure of pro-life wants to cut women off from their sexual identity or dimish their status as a woman. It's demeaning and insulting and no less patronizing and paternalistic than any other war on women topic.

To be fair, I don't think that's what she said at all, and I don't think that anyone here believes that.  Pro-choice =/= anti-woman.  Laws designed to gives an embryo more rights than the woman carrying it; to shame women for choosing not to carry a fetus to term; that require unnecessary, uncomfortable and expensive medical procedures to exercise a right that has already been granted by the Supreme Court; to conceal information from women about their own health status--those are all arguably anti-woman and they do seek to diminish our status as women. 

mominatrix

nitaw:

swimbikepuke:

 You think laws that would prohibit abortions after 6 weeks are not a step to and a symptom of cutting women off from their sexual selves or trying to pull them away from personhood?  I mean, I disagree with that if it's your position, but at least it's a position.  All you've done up to this point is point and laugh.  

 

Can we talk about this? Because this infuriates me. Most women don't even KNOW they are pregnant at six weeks. I wouldn't have known if I wasn't actively TTC. I had enough implantation spotting to mistake it for a light menstrual cycle. By limiting access, you are basically denying the right have an abortion. 

andplusalso, doctors generally won't DO surgical abortions before 6 weeks, because the embryo is too small to detect when they do the procedure, so there's a risk they won't get it. 

(I've had two friends who figured out they were pregnant early, tested, contacted PP only to be told they had to wait until after 6 weeks. This was in the days before Plan B and RU-486, so surgical was pretty much the only way to go, so that might make a difference. But, yeah.)

hindsight's_a_biotch

nitaw:

Can we talk about this? Because this infuriates me. Most women don't even KNOW they are pregnant at six weeks. I wouldn't have known if I wasn't actively TTC. I had enough implantation spotting to mistake it for a light menstrual cycle. By limiting access, you are basically denying the right have an abortion. 

For the record, this I wholesale agree with.

It is asinine to pass or propose legislation that completely blocks access to a legal procedure.

taratru

Brilliantly stated, SBP. 

Personally, it's not a " you Republicans" sentiment.  It's a " you people who try to limit my ability to do what I want with my own body" sentiment.  It truly doesn't matter to me where on the political spectrum a person is when they try to infringe on my privacy and my health.  

hindsight's_a_biotch

Because it's a backdoor way of banning something you know you can't get the votes to ban outright.

You can assume what you want. My assumption would be that people who feel abortion is murder are looking for a shady way of banning it without actually banning it.

nitaw

swimbikepuke:

Can I also assume that a discussion that is rife with references to taking responsibility for your actions and not having sex if you don't want a baby and "turning off the abortion faucet" involves some amount of slut-shaming that is anti woman?  That part of the issue isn't just that the woman had sex, but that she had sex without the purpose of procreating and women shouldn't do that?

Are we allowed to talk about virgin/whore archetypes or is literature totally off topic when examining current events?  Can I only look at the abortion issue in a vacuum, or am I allowed to let other things inform me?  Like books 'n stuff.

 

Wha'chu' done said! Speak truth right there. *Amen*

Yet, men get all the Viagra and Cilais commercials they want. Who are they having sex with if women aren't allowed to do so?

I don't care what anyone says, the laws that slowly chip away at your right to privacy equate to the destruction of your personal liberties. I have the personal liberty to choose how many children I should have. Telling me that I can't have an abortion, I can't get bcp, and that I'm a slut because I even want bcp are all in conjunction to create policies that limit my access thereby denying my rights to do what is best for me. We want to argue slippery slopes and such, yet we aren't tackling the one some politicians are trying to force us on.