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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Another Prop 8 response - the other side
This was sent to me as a response to the letter I forwarded from WishIWereAHousewife's post yesterday. While I am still a No on 8 girl, and I disagree with a lot of what she wrote, I think she wrote very eloquently. Thought I'd share
***
The beauty of this country is to hear the voices of the people.
My thing is, though, no matter what your stance is one this subject..
If we keep pointing out differences in people to our children and making such a big deal in it, won't we cause the children to see people differently anyway? Rather than just letting us live together?
I never pointed out that someone of color is different to my child. I noticed [my daughter] never asked me, until one day at a store a lady said she was looking at her like something was wrong with her. The lady said, Oh she must not have seen a black person before.. I said actually, she's like that with
every stranger. She was three. Really?!
I can't stand when people draw race lines, and I think it's the same for every race and sexual orientation. We are too fast to point out the differences. And that is just as racial as anything. My dad grew up in Watts. Got his butt kicked everyday because he is white. No race or sexual gender are free of racism. We are all children of immigrants. We all know someone gay. Accept it and move on is my thinking.. I have friends that are gay, or bi.. I don't treat them any differently. Don't draw attention to the differences. It makes it a difference. My daughter started asking me about Prop 8 this year. I didn't know what to tell her. Kids don't need this stuff crammed down their throats yet. Just like she didn't need some lady pointing out she was different when my daughter was only three. She never thought of it before that. We are all different. We need to coexist.
But, when we start bringing in things like this to school:
This is stepping on my rights as a parent. Telling me when and what I have to teach my child. Rather I believe it to be okay or not.. Some parents don't. The need to teach them this yet, isn't necessary. Maybe they figure to introduce it at an early age, it wouldn't be such a shock later, but really? Taking children to a gay wedding, does that help anything? They barely know what's happening at a heterosexual wedding..
Just as I always hated when we were taught evolution in school.. and nothing about any other way the world could have come about. The big bang theory is just that. A theory. LIke [our pastor] said Sunday... sometimes you just know in your heart what you believe.. or the other Sunday, you can't hate others with different views than your own, which was told to us in the Bible.
I don't completely know my stance on the issue. I am a Republican, I tend to sway that way.. But, no matter what way we slice it.. hatred is bred. My daughter eventually asked me why a lady had dark skin. I simply told her, because God thought she would be beautiful that way. It should be that
simple, not sign this card, kid. Or go to this wedding. That is NOT separating church from state.
Think about this.. if you disagree with Prop X, and Prop X passes, whatever it may be, then lawyers decide, forget this.. democracy schemocracy.. let's revert it.. is that constitutional? Wasn't I given a voice? What if it was something you really believed in. Why allow that to happen? Now that's a can of worms!
Is parading through a town and yelling at a church the way to teach this so called "tolerance" the best approach to getting someone to see your point of view? I think not.. it's drawing lines. You are against us or with us.. All I saw was hate on TV tonight. And it wasn't getting them anywhere!
Personally.. if I read this letter, and it was a little less aggravated.. I might sway.. if this author could revise this, to be less intrusive, it would be well received. Because it brings up points that are all worth looking into. But finger waving and walking through traffic when Daddy is trying to get to see his daughter's recital but is stuck in traffic, or a woman trying to get to UCLA for her Chemo treatment, or my husband is trying to get a patient from one end of town to the next.. dying.. is that okay? Did that make them go.. Oh! Okay.. I changed my mind.. No. They said get out of the road!
The scariest thing is that no matter what we vote.. it doesn't matter.. it will get changed... that's what the youth of America is learning through this. Then, no one votes, and our people aren't heard.. then the congressmen with fingers in their pockets will have all the say.
Try again in another election, this time.. be appealing.
And in the mean time, I will teach my children about love and life as I see fit.. through kind eyes. I don't feel comfortable with the life of a homosexual, but I co-exist. And next time they should try compromise. There were a lot of lies wrapped in the No on 8 campaign, and that is why so many passed it.
I loved the passion behind the letter.. however, my grandma always says.. you catch more flies with sugar..
This is just from the standpoint of so many that I have spoken to who passed this prop.
Sorry this was so long.. but it's all just food for thought.
We need to teach
Re: Another Prop 8 response - the other side
I stopped reading this half way through and I have a valid reason. The article written that wilshirewife posted had a very good defense with back up to prove it. I stopped reading it when I started to read about the schools being taken to a gay mariage. Fact is, all of the parents had the right to opt out of the field trip just like any field trip. The children were not taken off of campus without their parents knowing exactly where they were going, it is a liability issue amongst all of the other things. Two parents out of all of the students did not allow their children to attend (san fran). I really think this has been taken out of context so much. Mass murders and religion is something I seen under my mothers permission when my teacher took me to the holocaust museum and I learned about History. The fact that we are learning to except people wether they are black, tan, white, gay, rep, dem is a changing time in our history and I personally would have let my child go see it. I would have then explained to her our religion and how we see marriage as a man and women, but how some people were made differently.Children learn from adults as well as children and as a parent, you are the ones in the end, that will help clarify things for them. Just like she said I told my daughter the lady was black, because God wanted her that way.
You know what I find interesting - I honestly think one of the main reasons that Prop 8 passed was because of the brilliant campaign the proponents ran. In my opinion parents are scared of two things, having their child born with a birth defect and the possibility of their child being gay. The proponents hit on the second fear SO well. I think parents began thinking, "well crap, if they teach it in school it could SPREAD! Learning it in school is going to make my child gay!"
So, the irony - parents want to keep this information from their kids in school right? It shouldnt be taught in schools - but why not? I don't understand the dilemma. If they don't learn about it there they are going to see it someplace else (ie. family, on the street, on the tv when breaking news comes in to show a prop 8 rally), kids aren't stupid, they are curious little sponges - why not talk about it in school, safe forum right?
Being a teacher I do not feel comfortable teaching things that go against something they are taught at home. It is not my place to impose my ideal and beliefs on the young minds.
I read this entire thing, even though it was extremely difficult to get through all the grammatical errors and poor writing. ?But hey - no judging, right?
Let's get started.
?"If we keep pointing out differences in people to our children and making such a big deal in it, won't we cause the children to see people differently anyway? Rather than just letting us live together?"
News flash. ?We are different. ?We hail from different countries, celebrate different religions, speak with different accents, eat different food, listen to different music, etc. ?We have many things that unite us, to be certain, but to gloss over what makes us unique in some bizzare attempt at homogenization is a mistake. ? Research has shown (and I'm going to bring my leftist ivory tower academic degree to the table) that kids are aware of differences. ?That they are able to discriminate at a young age. ?It's unfortunate, but it exists. ?To think or pretend otherwise is to let the condition fester. ?We must talk about these things.
"We all know someone gay.?Accept it and move on is my thinking.. I have friends that are gay, or bi.. I don't treat them any differently.?Don't draw attention to the differences. It makes it a difference."
I see similar attitudes in my own family. ?While everyone knows that my step-sister is gay, no one really talks about it. ?No one asks about her girlfriend, no one extends an invitiation to her partner at family holiday gatherings, no one tries to set her up with anyone... ?And you know what? ?This makes her feel marginalized in her own family. ? We need to embrace people for who they are and yes, sometimes that means drawing attention to differences.
As far as the gay wedding field trip - much has been made of that. ?Parents were free to have their children opt out. ?And honestly, I'm at a loss of why it's such a difficult subject matter to talk about in the first place. ?"When people grow up, they sometimes find someone they love a lot and get married. ?And when they do, a boy and a girl can get married, two girls can get married, or two boys can get married. ?What's important is that they love each other and are nice to each other. Now who wants to play blocks?" ?It's not that hard. ?Honest. ??
"Just as I always hated when we were taught evolution in school.. and nothing about any other way the world could have come about.">
Sorry. ?In school you need to learn science. ?If you want to teach your child religious teachings, stick them in Sunday school.
"Think about this.. if you disagree with Prop X, and Prop X passes, whatever it may be, then lawyers decide, forget this.. democracy schemocracy.. let's revert it.. is that constitutional? Wasn't I given a voice? What if it was something you really believed in. Why allow that to happen? Now that's a can of worms!"
Okay, I don't understand what she's talking about here. ?But let me say that a majority should never decide on the rights of a minority and that the Constitution was designed to uphold the rights of the few. ?And that the fact that a margin of 400,000 was enough to strip a group of their rights is staggering. ?
As far as the protests yesterday...
Yes, it tied up traffic. ?And yes (in my eyes) it was too late. ?But people are pissed. ?Imagine if someone told you that you and your husband's marriage was invalid. ?That might make you a little testy, no? ?What if, in the case of Arkansas, someone told you that you couldn't adopt the little girl that had been living with you for two years? ?Again, you might feel a little perturbed. ?
"The scariest thing is that no matter what we?vote.. it doesn't matter.. it will get changed... that's what the youth of America is learning through this. Then, no one votes, and our people aren't heard.. then the congressmen with fingers in their pockets will have all the say."
Unjust laws will get changed. ?See Brown vs. Board of Education. ?See Loving vs. Virginia. ?See Mendez vs. Westminster. ?See Hernandez vs. Texas. ?I pray that the youth learn this basic fact, for they are the harbingers of change. ?And indeed, if you look at the younger voters, they overwhelmingly were in favor of defeating Prop 8.
"I don't feel comfortable with the life of a homosexual, but I co-exist. And next time they should try compromise."
Compromise? ?I seriously laughed at loud at this part. ?What exactly does the letter writer have in mind? ?Being gay, but never dating anyone? ?Never falling in love? ?Asking for some watered down version that doesn't give access to all the federal benefits of marriage that you or I have? ?Please. ?The only compromise that is acceptable is having a civil marriage as opposed to a religious marriage - but even that's questionable as many Churches would gladly marry same-sex couples. ?
Complete inanity. ?But thanks for sharing. ??
What if you had been a teacher in the South during school desegregation? ?Many families were very much against that. Would you have been uncomfortable standing up for the civil rights of the minority children newly integrated into your class? Or would you have taught your class about civil rights despite what your students learned at home? ?
Re: "The Other Side" -?I fail to understand why we must listen to "the other side" as if they have a point of view that might be valid.
There is no reason anyone would sit down and listen to a racist's argument to determine if perhaps, they might have a point. ?Why do must we give bigots that audience.
Bigotry is bigotry. ?Trying to hide behind any number of excuses or explanations does not cover up the bigotry. ??
Re: teaching evolution in schools - the earth revolves around the sun, the world is round and all creatures on earth evolved into their current forms.?
There is no excuse and as Shelly said, you really dont understand the school system unless you are in it.
Parents have the right to teach their own family values and I have to respect that. So, I really dont see why you have to attack me because I say that I feel uncomfortable placing my personal values on a child that is not my own. When you are a teacher, then we can talk more. But until then, you have no right to judge.
Actually, in my imaginary "let's play with blocks" it was a parent doing the instructing, not a teacher. ?I honestly don't know why families are covered as a lesson in school anyway. ?Shouldn't kids be grappling with something a bit more meaty anyway? ?
But aside from that, I think it's good for kids to know that family configurations are different - some kids are raised by single parents, some are raised by grandparents. ?Some have two moms, some have two dads. ?I'm sure there's some sort of book about this. ?And if there isn't, I should start writing one... lol?
Actually Mel, there is a book about it. Several in fact. I am sure if you do a google search you can find some. Or go to your local library.
And yes, families are taught in kinder and first. It is considered part of social studies. Remember at that age, it is more "global" than specifice learning. Especially in social studies. It is all about friends, family, rules, some maps, being a good sport, etc.
I forgot to include Language Arts. The units in the Language arts programs are themed after social studies or science concepts. Depending on the program the school is using will determine which books are bring read and how they relate to the theme. So for example, shelly said she was on a "friends and family" unit in LA. Therefore all the books read to the student would center around that topic. Right now my class is on a "In Our Neighborhood", so we are reading stories about city life and community helpers. The LA programs are set up this way to include science and social studies because those are the subject that are the most neglected in terms of time taught in class. But that is another topic for another day.
Also, it is not so far off to have science and social studies integrated into math. It is to give students a more practical use for math.