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So... let's talk about Gaza.
[kinda long and rambly, sorry...]
I don't think anyone (who is rational and sane) questions that Israel certainly has a right to defend itself. And Gaza launches hundreds of rockets at them every year, and something like 500 since Israel started firing back a few days ago.
But here's the thing-
The status quo is completely unsustainable- this is obvious from the fact that Israel is gearing up to invade Gaza... again. This round will do nothing more than further entrench the hostility.
The Israeli Interior Minister supposedly says: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only
then will Israel be calm for forty years." (via Haaretz- http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505 )
Gaza has no semblance of self-determination. An incredibly dense population lives walled-in on one side, blockaded on the other, and with their only means of "trade" (of supplies and weapons) via tunnels in and out of Egypt.
And since this war/conflict/thing started, Gaza, who is launching hundreds of rockets indiscriminately into Israel, has managed to kill 3 civilians. I believe somewhere around a dozen IDF soldiers have now been injured. Meanwhile, Israel, supposedly using advanced technology to surgically strike at strategic military targets in Gaza, has killed around two dozen civilians.
Not to mention the number of Gazans who have likely now been killed by Hamas weapons misfires. They have probably been responsible for more Palestinian deaths than Israeli ones.
Now, I'm not saying that their ineffectiveness should mean that it's okay for Hamas to fire rockets helter skelter into Israel. But where along the line does Israel remotely think that firing back, further demolishing what little infrastructure Gaza has, and group assault are going to solve anything in the long term? Unless they do actually succeed in sending "Gaza back to the Middle Ages," the whole thing will start all over again. And if they do succeed, I shudder to think what that success will look like. Israel will certainly lose any moral high ground and further regional hostilities towards them.
Morsi and Erdogan in Egypt and Turkey are supposedly working to bring respective leadership to the table to talk cease-fire, but again... status quo. It won't solve anything, will it?
Re: So... let's talk about Gaza.
There are two issues here: First, Hamas militants often choose to hide out among civilians, even children. It's tactical. That makes it doubly hard for the IDF to use "targeted" strikes, particularly in such a densely populated area.
But the larger issue is that the Palestinians are pawns for Hamas leaders in other countries like Iran and now (post-Mubarak) Egypt. It's hard to see how this situation can end peacefully without cooperation from other Arab countries. That's why Israel has asked for a "red line" regarding Iran -- the point at which the US would not oppose (or better yet, support) Israeli military action. Of course, the possibility of war with Iran makes the entire international community very uneasy, to put it mildly.
It's an impossible situation for Israel.
I wish it were possible for the rest of the world to say "F'uck all of you" and take over Gaza and refuse to let either the Israelis or the Palestinians live there. Like when my kids fight over the same toy. Neither gets it until they can share.
Isn't that what Abbas basically wants to do with Jerusalem? Have it internationally and independently administered so it doesn't really "belong" to either side?
But Gaza isn't about who gets to live where (anymore), unlike the West Bank. It isn't even about anything so substantial as that. It's just... a conflict that can't and won't die. Nor does it seem, at this point, that anyone can really "win" it.
Nechie- where the heck did Iran come in to this? Whether or not the Iranian administration is supporting Hamas, I really don't think there's any strategic victory against Iran to be made here, nor does a US "red line" have anything to do with Israel invading Gaza or Hamas missiles fired into Israel.
Who do you think is supplying these sophisticated missiles to Hamas? Did you know that this is the first time since 1970 that air raid sirens have sounded in Jerusalem? The Palestinian militants did not have long range missiles before this conflict -- that's part of what makes things so scary to the Israelis.
The other point I wanted to make earlier is that dealing with terrorists is different from dealing with a sovereign nation. The government's ability to take diplomatic measures is severely limited. The only way to deal with terrorists is the through the nations who harbor them and the groups that fund them. Hamas is a recognized terrorist group, and its support comes directly from other Arab nations.
I know nothing about Gaza, but this was posted on ProBoards and it's pretty interesting.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/13enix/i_am_nadim_baba_al_jazeera_correspondent_in_gaza/?sort=confidence
They may have gotten them from Iran (do we actually know this, or is this just something people say when looking for reasons to invade Iran?), but Hamas's weapons aren't sophisticated anything, nor are they "missiles." Modern missiles have a far more accurate guidance system. Rockets are basically aimed on the ground and 'let's hope for the best.' Their "sophisticated missiles" haven't even managed to hit Jerusalem and keep overshooting an entire city and landing in the West Bank... when they aren't failing spectacularly and falling back down into Gaza. I'm not really sure this is some great proxy conflict waged at the behest of Iran to take down Israel if they can't even pass along some decent technology. Gaza and Israel's conflict goes back further than the current tensions between Israel and Iran.
The only way to deal with terrorists is not, apparently, through the nations harboring and supplying them- you can also isolate and embargo them along with all of the people around them. It's called collective punishment and it's classified a war crime, regardless of whether the people being punished voted the offending group in power or not. Which also brings up the point that Hamas is still the recognized government of Gaza, and so can't be ignored as such the way independent terrorist groups are. What else can they do? Kill all of the Hamas leadership and tell the people of Gaza to vote again and again until they get it right?
I never said Iran was the main problem; I was responding above to the question of why I thought they fit in. And, no, we don't know for sure if the Gazans got the Fajr-5 missiles/rockets from Iran, although they are Iranian-made weapons. And, please, Israel's problems with its Arab neighbors date back as far as Israel's war for independence in 1948. They are inter-related. The Arab countries are happy to smuggle weapons to Gaza through Eygpt but would they open their own borders to accept refugees?
You're forgetting that Israel didn't enter into this current conflict unprovoked. If Puerto Rico or Cuba were firing rockets into Miami or Tampa, you can be sure that the US would be urging Washington to respond quickly and forcefully.
Somewhat ironically perhaps, Iran and Israel actually had very good relations until the Islamic Revolution in '79... just one reason Iran was generally disliked by the Arab countries around them.
Anyway, I was referring to the current tensions between Israel and Iran, specifically regarding Iran's uranium enrichment program. Tensions between Israel and Gaza certainly predate that.
And finally, I'm certainly not forgetting that Israel is provoked in this matter. How many times have we discussed the hundreds of rockets Hamas likes to send at them? My greater point was about the uselessness for Israel to repeat the exact same response as in '05 and '08-'09, and the uselessness of attacking to maintain the status quo for Gaza. Without giving the people of Gaza some semblance of a life, Hamas will have zero trouble culling further and further resentment.
Israel can never bomb Gaza enough to make that cycle stop- and that was the point of my OP.
p.s. going back to Geraldo's point about attacker vs responder- while I challenge someone to realistically twist this specific conflict going on right now to justify Hamas's actions... do you have any idea how many countries that refuse to recognize or have diplomatic relations with Israel come with the caveat that they would as soon as Palestinian statehood is granted? These aren't a bunch of irrational and suicidal leaders in the region who are still hellbent on seeing Israel completely obliterated- they all know damn well that Israel could dominate them in armed conflict and that the US wouldn't be far behind anyway. If a two-state solution were ever established with an actual, legitimate self-determination for all of the Palestinians living under Israeli control right now, it would do so much more for the long term security of Israel than expending their energies towards attacking Gaza and getting Obama to talk about "red lines" for Iran.
Just came across this article that I think articulates a lot of my above opinion on this far better than I was able -
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2012/11/benjamin_netanyahu_s_decision_to_bomb_hamas_militants_in_gaza_will_leave.html
Pertinent excerpts-
Israel?s response to these ongoing rocket attacks is justified. But being justified isn?t the same thing as being smart. The truth is Israel has been engaged in a low-grade war with the Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip for five years now, with no plan besides a misguided military strategy for how to end it.
To try to contain the threat, Israel has relied largely on periodic air strikes on weapons storage facilities and targeted assassinations of militants, which sometimes result in civilian casualties that radicalize the Palestinian population. It bombs the smuggling tunnels that run underground between Egypt and the Gaza Strip and are used to smuggle in civilian goods and weapons. The tunnels exist because of the strict blockade Israel enforces around the territory, choking off anything like normal commerce.
In four years, Israel?s playbook hasn?t changed. Nor did the Palestinian rockets ever truly end. But in the intervening years the world has changed. Most significantly, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, who could ignore anti-Israel sentiment in his country, is gone. His successor, Islamist President Mohammed Morsi, may have more sway with Hamas, but he also has less power to resist Egyptian calls to sever ties with Israel.
Israel?s problems aren?t limited to its southern flank. The civil war in Syria is threatening to engulf Israel. Thousands of Jordanians are in the streets demanding King Abdullah?s ouster. Relations with Turkey remain frayed.
Israel is growing ever more isolated just as its regional position becomes more insecure.
...
Palestinian militant groups are clearly trying to drag Israel into an all-out war. An Israeli ground response ?would be the best thing that could happen to Hamas,? the former head of Israel?s Shin Bet security service, Ami Ayalon, told Israel?s Channel 10 news Thursday night. ?Hamas?s strategy is to draw the Israeli army into civilian areas, kill lots of Israeli soldiers, and declare victory.?
So that?s Hamas?s strategy. But what is Israel?s?
?We will put an end to this,? Moshe Yaalon, Israel?s deputy prime minister and minister of strategic affairs, declared Thursday. ?We will not maintain restraint. If the terror organizations do not cease their fire, we will be prepared to toughen our response as much as necessary, until they say, ?Enough!? ?
If that is indeed what Netanyahu and his government have planned?and all indications suggest mounting military strikes on Gaza are imminent?then Israel?s response couldn?t be any less strategic. To be sure, Israel will once again achieve many of its short-term tactical goals, assassinating a handful of Hamas leaders, leveling militant safe houses, and eliminating scores of Hamas military installations or weapon depots. And, in the end, Israel will be no safer, although it will surely be more alone in the world and living in a neighborhood that is less tolerant of its aggressive countermeasures.
It?s time to declare Israel?s policy toward Gaza and Hamas a failure. This is not an anti-Israel statement. Rather, it is an honest acknowledgment of the facts, which are simply too numerous to avoid.
I would just like to say as someone living in Israel at the moment, that it is not easy living under constant rocket fire, 4 years ago my sister was living down south and i know that there were weeks where she was constantly running for a bomb shelter. i don't know what kind of coverage you are getting over in the states but here are some facts, in the southern communities they have 15 seconds so get somewhere safe, in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv 1:00. Israel dropped fliers warning the citizens or Gaza that they were going to be attacking and families should move somewhere safe. Israel has mostly targeted government/military sites trying to avoid citizens while Hamas is specifically targeting populated areas. despite the rocket fire and danger Israel continues to send in trucks of supplies sent to Gaza from other countries, and Israel has not shut off they power. I even read recently that one of the electric lines was damaged due to a rocket and the repair man needed a bullet proof shield to block gun fire. Hamas's motto is" We love death as much as Israelis love life." most of my sources come from this web site:
www.israelnationalnews.com
I'll admit it is extremely pro Israel but is brutally honest. Hope I made any sense Its bit late here and I should be asleep.
Thanks for popping on to this thread, I was wondering if we had any Israelis hanging around.
I don't doubt the anxiety of the situation and I'm sorry it is so rough. I wonder if you'd share anything about your firsthand knowledge of the average population's view towards the potential for another ground invasion. Do people see it as any sort of solution, long term or short term? I guess that's just what I have the hardest time understanding.
I was really happy to see this thread and was even more happy to see how calm its has remained, this subject can get out of hand so fast. Anyhoo from what I understand 26% of the population do not want this to continue into a ground invasion, but majority are so tired of the rockets they just want to be done once and for all. I think that a lot of people believe that even if there is a cease fire it won't last very long, like most of the other cease fires. I also believe that a lot of people are hoping it doesn't come to a ground invasion partially because the men going in to fight are husbands/sons/brothers....and Israel has had so much death in the last few years. The small percentage that doesn't believe a ground invasion is the solution, is hoping that maybe this time Hamas got the message and enough is enough. Not to mention that part of that 26% may be Palestinian (not sure).
I honestly believe that there really may not be any other choice but to go all the way and hit them so hard that it will take a long time to get back up. Its harsh and part of me agrees with what a pp wrote that maybe no one should be in control. The only problem is I think they'll just find another place to attack Israel from.
I hope you don't mind if I further pick your brain, Judo. :-)
What's the general feeling towards the necessity (or lack thereof) of maintaining decent relations with Egypt? A lot of things I've come across contemplating further escalation/ground assault by Israel speculated that it could come at the cost of the diplomatic ties with Egypt, due to Mubarak's ouster and Morsi's more precarious position in power and reliance on popular support to stay there.
Is maintaining that connection viewed as a vital thing, especially given growing unrest in Jordan and the somewhat strained ties with Turkey since the flotilla fiasco? Or is there sort of a 'what's one more country against us?' attitude?
Also curious- where did your 26% statistic come from? I saw almost the exact opposite stat, that while an overwhelming number of Israelis support the ongoing air strikes, only around 30% are in favor of continuing it on the ground. Anything I see from Israeli media tends to be from Haaretz (it's just what pops up most) but I don't know if they tend to have particular leanings.
I don't mind at all pick away
i think that a lot of people feel that it is important to keep political ties with Egypt. I ask a few people what they though and most of them said that they felt it was important for a few reasons: Egypt a: has a decent army in comparison to other countries surrounding us and b: they have a powerful impact on the rest of the Muslim world. I agree with this, I don't think Israel needs another country on its border to be ready to attack them given any excuse.
I honestly can't remember where I got the percentage its possible that I miss read something, if I did sorry for the miss quot. I'll see if I can find the article again. Haaretz is pretty reliable and are generally somewhere in the middle.
now that a "cease" fire has been declared, and 20 rockets have been fired into Israel despite it. I can't help but feel a little disappointment in the gov. I think a lot of people will also feel this way. unless its just going to take a short time for Hamas to get its people under control and stop the rocket fire for good.
anyways sorry for the miss quote i can't seem to find the article anywhere so i must have miss interpreted something.