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Nativity display lawsuit: Atheists vs. Christians in Santa Monica
A group of churches in Santa Monica is going into federal court Monday to try to force the city to reverse its decision to scrap a 60-year-old annual holiday event that has deteriorated into a battle between religious groups and atheists over the display of life-sized nativity scenes.
For almost six decades, the 21 stalls used for the native scenes have been distributed amicably, with just enough requests for spaces from churches to fill the stalls.
But last year, after atheist groups flooded the city with requests, the city set up a lottery for the first time.
The secular groups got 18 stalls, while two went to traditional Christmas displays and one to a Hanukkah display, the Santa Monica Daily Press reported.
The atheist groups used their stalls to put up signs referring to religion as a myth or comparing Santa Claus to the devil. Most of the signs were vandalized in the ensuing uproar.
Beset by intense wrangling and even threats to city employees, officials in this California beach community of 90,000 people that borders Los Angeles decided to get out of the holiday display business altogether.
But the church groups are fighting back, seeking a federal injunction to force the city to restore the event. They have accused the City Council of caving in to a "heckler's veto," the Daily Press reported.
"It's a sad, sad commentary on the attitudes of the day that a nearly 60-year-old Christmas tradition is now having to hunt for a home, something like our savior had to hunt for a place to be born because the world was not interested," said Hunter Jameson, head of the non-profit Santa Monica Nativity Scene Committee that is suing, the Associated Press reported.
The city has responded to the legal maneuvering with a motion noting that Santa Monica is "a coastal, visitor-serving community with very crowded public spaces, including its parks."
The motion argues that the council "appropriately exercised its legislative discretion to balance use of public spaces and ensure shared usage."
The atheist groups, for their part, are sitting out the court fight, letting the churches and the city battle it out among themselves.
"In recent years, the tactic of many in the atheist community has been, if you can't beat them, join them," said Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center and director of the Newseum's Religious Freedom Education Project in Washington, the AP reported. "If these church groups insist that these public spaces are going to be dominated by a Christian message, we'll just get in the game ? and that changes everything."
The change in tactic away from head-on court challenges underscores the conviction held by many non-believers that their views are gaining a foothold, especially among young adults, the AP reported.
The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life released a study last month that found 20% of Americans say they have no religious affiliation, an increase from 15% in the last five years. Atheists took heart from the report, although Pew researchers stressed that the category also encompassed majorities of people who said they believed in God but had no ties with organized religion and people who consider themselves "spiritual" but not "religious."
Damon Vix, the 44-year-old set builder who mounted last year's successful lottery bid ploy, told the AP that it was "such a unique and blatant example of the violation of the First Amendment that I felt I had to act."
"If I had another goal," he adds, "it would would be to remove the 'under God' phrase from the Pledge of Allegiance ? but that's a little too big for me to take on for right now.
Re: Nativity display lawsuit: Atheists vs. Christians in Santa Monica
I think that's pretty douchey of the atheist group. Sounds like they created a conflict where there was none. Sucks when another religion gets all up in your business for absolutely no reason.
Even as an atheist I agree that it is pretty douchey. I *** love christmas.
However, I do agree that we should remove "under god" from the pledge.
Maybe upon further reflection I will feel differently, but as of now, I can see where the atheist groups are coming from. I'm not an atheist. I am agnostic, and while I personally abhor all religion, I do understand why many people need/want it in their lives.
That being said, I do not see how the city of Santa Monica can do anything but hold a lottery for those stalls. The religious groups should not have special privilege to display their propaganda just because it is the holiday season, right? They are using public land to tout the belief of their organization. I can see that being allowed ONLY if any other public organization is given the same right to have a stall at that time of year.
This is government property, not the church's front lawn. While I may think the stalls are harmless and traditional and even attractive, there are others who will simply see it as church propaganda. I don't think the city has the right to discriminate which propaganda should be allowed (be it Atheist or Christian or Jewish or whatever).
Sucks that the first lottery yielded so few holiday displays, but perhaps the next lottery would have had very few atheists ones.
My first reaction is to be appalled at the lawsuit.
ETA: I also agree that "under God" should be removed from the pledge.
I agree about others seeing it as church propaganda. I just feel like they should use their money and time to fight harmful religious group actions like limiting women's rights, gay rights, etc...
I feel like this country is getting much more secular anyway, so the rest will sort itself out if we can help to make those extremist religious groups lose their power.
But the Atheists aren't involved in the lawsuit. The headline is misleading. It's the churches versus the city. The Atheists are really just sitting back and watching it unfold. Seems like a pretty cheap and proactive way to try and undo the hold that religion has on our government.
I know what you're saying and I don't disagree - the atheist groups have just as much of a right to rent out the stalls, and the lottery is the fairest way to do it.
The thing that I don't like is that they didn't actually want the stalls, they wanted to pick a fight. I'm not saying it was illegal or or anything like that But the churches renting out the stalls for nativity scenes were being productive and not harming anyone, so why pick a fight just for the sake of picking a fight? It breeds bad blood and harms people who weren't harming anyone else.
I think it would have been classier and more productive to focus on instances when religion actually imposes its will on others. This just seems petty.
I should probably follow one of the cardinal rules of the internet... read before thy commenteth
The normalization of religion through religious displays being out on public property *is* something we need to fight. It is an important goal. "Picking a fight" in this instant was warranted. I wish they had gone with a more humanistic "Good without God" display, featuring quotes from Humanists about the season (there are tons about peace, goodwill, joining together, etc) but those might not have stood out as easily as the more negative campaign, which is a good point.
These groups were trying to break the stranglehold that Christianity has on the Holiday season. That's a worthy cause.
I agree with this. I suppose it's hard for me to divorce my nostalgic feelings towards my christian childhood version of christmas from the reality of what christmas is like for those who don't look at it the same way I do.
I can definitely understand where you are coming from CoffeBeen, but I just see it differently.
I'm not an Atheist, so I personally find the signs talking about Santa being evil, or religion being b.s., to be just as annoying as the church propaganda. I am down for letting people believe what they want to believe. So, while I personally might find the Christmas stalls pretty and seasonal, there are people who are freaking offended by that sh!t. They really are.
I wish this country actually had a separation of church and state. If that were the case, the city wouldn't even think twice about having these holiday stalls only open to churches in the first place. If they want to offer the opportunity to have the nativity scenes, which some may see as shameless marketing, they really do need to allow all sorts of organizations to have the chance to display their beliefs. Just my opinion.
Also, the description of these displays is misleading. The actual displays look like this:
Not exactly "OMGSANTAISTHEDEBIL" and "CHRISTIANITY KILLS!!!1!" like the article implied (to me).
Word.
I agree that a humanist display would have been really cool. And the actual images aren't as pearl clutching as I thought, but they're still focused at other religions rather than at peace/joy/goodwill.
And they didn't have to rent out nearly all of them. That's just showboating.
I don't know, maybe I'm being a hypocrite on this one. I'm definitely willing to listen to more arguments on both sides. I just feel like it was an aggressive response for a relatively benign problem.
It was a lottery. They drew for who got the stalls. That's not unfair. The Churches have had all the stalls for 59 years. The Atheists get 18 stalls for one year, and not only were their signs defaced, then the city decided to not offer the stalls to anyone. Seems like the churches are just throwing a fit to me.
In times like these, I must turn to the immortal words of Jon Stewart:
?You?ve confused a ?war on your religion? with ?not always getting everything you want.??America isn?t Nazi Germany. And the secret police aren?t coming for ya. Hell, the IRS isn?t even coming for ya. This government ?hates? religious organizations so much, it lets them keep $100 billion a year in offerings tax-free. Persecute my ass like that!?
Allowing any single religious group to perpetuate their beliefs in public spaces without allowing an answer to that perpetuation continues the trend of overly entitled Christians who believe that it is their right to push their beliefs on the rest of us.
We should scrap all religious/humanist Christmas displays and only allow Santa themed displays.
Up with Pagans? Or Catholics. Whoever owns him right now.
Yup. And Germans with their Christmas trees.
::Gasp::
THIS IS TOTALLY NAZI GERMANY!!!11!
I don't think the lottery was unfair, I think that submitting enough requests to get that many stalls for the single purpose of saying "your religion is dumb" is counterproductive and kind of a waste.
FWIW, I think that the people who vandalized the displays and the city that decided not to offer them are dumb, too. I just don't know why the atheists thought this would go any other way? Yes, they acted lawfully, but not very strategically. Their actions were meant to escalate rather than progress.
I disagree. The lack of nativity scenes is a progression for them.
Queen Victoria had a christmas tree.
She was also a werewolf.
So maybe we should be come pro-Santa and pro-werewolves-but-not-Twilight-werewolves.
Ah, I see.
I'd take a Twilight-werewolf over a Twilight-vampire any day.
Dude. Amen.
Is that out of place in this thread? Lol
Taylor Lautner is not hot. Not even a little bit.
I think I'm team Missymo here.
I would much prefer that the message of the atheist/agnostic groups had been to highlight the positives of those schools of thoughts rather than attack religion. We can coexist peacefully and celebrate Christmas in many ways, all of which can be positive. I don't mind the passion of the atheist organizations but I'm all about real solutions and I think a more positive message is going to be met with a better reception.