Politics & Current Events
MommyLiberty5013
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Okay...I'll Do It...Fiscal Cliff
I'm pretty concerned.
It appears that many Republicans are willing to have higher tax rates for the wealthy, which is a HUGE concession from weeks and months ago. This is progress. They would be willing to do this in exchange for closure of some loopholes and some entitlements.
There has been no input or a plan offered by the White House.
Plus, there is now a plan to have an ADDITIONAL $200B in spending stimulus from Obama (presented by Geithner).
Are we going crazy? Then, we have the council woman from Detroit wanting "tit for tat" from Obama, stating that her city voted him back into office and now wants bailout money as "compensation" for helping him out.
I don't think our leaders are serious about this economic problem.
Re: Okay...I'll Do It...Fiscal Cliff
And YES I think the "leaders" are trying to play poker with each other and see who is bluffing.I think this close to the holidays...to get something done with these leaders would be a "miracle".
The bolded is factually incorrect. Obama offered a plan. The House Republicans laughed at it and rejected it.
I'm expecting there's gonna be some *really* fuzzy math to justify only making small cuts. I also would not be shocked to see the Bush Tax Cuts for the middle and lower classes made permanent while the wealthy end up with a rate somewhere between the Clinton and GW Bush years. The big question is what will happen with capital gains.
There's a lot of potential configurations and moving parts which makes it all rather complicated. There will be some sort of 11th hour deal, and it's almost guaranteed not to make anyone happy.
Here's an interesting article about what could happen if the deal is not made by Jan 1. happy new years everyone:)
http://news.yahoo.com/far-over-fiscal-cliff-could-080919253--finance.html
Unemployment above 9%. So, I'm confused. Clarify for me, someone, please.
1. Is it true that Obama, many Democrats, and now many Republicans are okay with increasing taxes on the wealthy? So, there is compromise on this, right? And this had been the main source of contention during the campaign season?
2. But now, Obama wants increased stimulus spending, a permanently raised debt ceiling, AND refuses to close tax loopholes AND refuses to lower entitlements?
3. Okay, if this is incorrect, tell me. If it is a correct assessment, then doesn't it seem like it's the Dems and Obama are the ones who aren't compromising? (not trying to play blame game, just calling it as it is?)
ETA: I just cut and pasted your questions mommyliberty.
Unemployment above 9%. So, I'm confused. Clarify for me, someone, please.
1. Is it true that Obama, many Democrats, and now many Republicans are okay with increasing taxes on the wealthy? So, there is compromise on this, right? And this had been the main source of contention during the campaign season? The Dems want to raise the marginal tax rates on households with incomes over 250k. The Repubs want to increase tax revenue by ending/limiting deductions and closing loopholes. It's unclear which deductions would be affected and if they were capped whether charitable donations would be included in the cap.
2. But now, Obama wants increased stimulus spending, a permanently raised debt ceiling, AND refuses to close tax loopholes AND refuses to lower entitlements? The stimulus is for extending the payroll tax cut, unemployment benefits, infrastructure, and mortgage relief. A lot of economists argue that drastically cutting government spending when the economic recovery is so tenuous would halt the recovery. I think the debt ceiling thing would just make it so that Congress would need a 2/3 majority to override the President if he/she wanted to raise it. The WH proposal had 350B in entitlement cuts, the R's had 800B in their proposal.
3. Okay, if this is incorrect, tell me. If it is a correct assessment, then doesn't it seem like it's the Dems and Obama are the ones who aren't compromising? (not trying to play blame game, just calling it as it is?) I think the Dems just feel they're in a position to hold firm to the changes that they want to see happen.
I voted for the President. The majority of Americans voted for the President. The majority of Americans would like to see tax rates raised on the top 2%. Notice I did not say loopholes closed. They can do tax reform when they have more than 2 weeks to come up with a solution. The majority of Americans would like soc sec and Medicare left alone. The majority of Americans say if we dont reach a deal, they will blame the Republican Party. My only question is are the Republicans trying to kill their party?
A lot of the above post sound like Republican talking points. Everyone except the Republicans knew Romney was not going to win. I still laugh about the newspaper ensorsement poat here as if that was relevant. I still laugh at how 538 was so wrong. The Republicans still kept saying the polls are wrong, etc. When are the republicans in general and those on the nest specifically going to stop listening to the talking points and talking heads and join the rest of us in America? Feel free to carry on as usual. I can already see Hilary's inauguration in my head.
Oh snap. Good comeback. Posting from my phone at the beauty shop. Sorry about that. I'm still spending like a wild person. Lol.
Yes, you are correct...Obama won.
However, the Republicans won the House. So, if the White House has a "mandate" to raise tax rates. Isn't it fair to say the Republicans in the house have a "mandate" to not raise taxes?
I don't understand why a compromise of raising revenue by cutting loopholes and deductions wasn't considered by the white house? $800 billion is $800 billion not matter how you slice it...right? What is the purposes of raising tax "rates" on the wealthy if one can achieve the same result by raising revenue?
What bothers me most is I feel like the wealthy are being demonized for being rich...and most (not all) of those who are in the 1-2% worked hard to get there.
I am tired of hearing the rich need to pay their "fair share", when according to the CBO the wealthy earn about 50 percent of all income but pay nearly 70 percent of the federal tax burden. What should be considered their "fair share", seems like they pay plenty.
No worries. Also, TN has been whacked up lately with odd alignments, no paragraphs and teeny tiny font sizes so that may have contributed. Ahhh why am I surprised about this, though...TN is decidedly unreliable, yet I'm still here. Who knows???
President Obama won the popular vote and the electoral college. So, that is pretty cut and dried. The makeup of the House is more complicated. No, it does not provide a mandate - House Dems actually won a plurality of the nationwide vote, and House Republicans benefited from redistricting.
It's not nearly as powerful of a statement as President Obama's decisive win. Not at all.
Bolded. We're talking doctors, lawyers, some pilots (not DH), engineers, architects, some farmers, small business owners, etc. Of course, the trust fund babies and CEOs fall here too, but most of the 1-2% is made up of highly-educated, smart folks with specific skill sets and highly-honed talents that the majority of the population cannot accomplish. Some people just have better hand-eye coordination, more brains, better problem-solving skills, and higher functioning IQs and they tend to gravitate toward higher paying occupations. This seems natural and a normal occurence.
Yet, they are being pushed down for their hard work and skills?
I don't think that people shoudl be able to wiggle out of paying taxes - so yes, close some loopholes. But, to demonize a large portion or this nation's intellectual and highly-skilled base, makes NO sense.
I don't think the many of the wealthy have a problem helping out, but they want to know that the other end of the spectrum is doing without a little bit too in the form of entitlements. Like that chick in Detroit demanding stimulus money from Obama because her city reelected him as POTUS!
This is so mind-numbing. I think the fiscal conservatives within Washington are well within a good position and that they have a point here.
This. The republicans won the house through redistributing. If the same districts were drawn as in 08, the dems would have the house. I live in the fifth largest city in Ohio. Our representative is now in Cleveland. Do you think they are representing my city or Cleveland? It's a mess.
I don't know what they did up north...but it didn't change much for us here in the SW part of OH. My representative's office is actually a mile down the road.
Ohio lost 2 seats. They where in the Cleveland, Akron and Toledo area. Can you guess why? These areas are democratic strong holds. No they didn't touch our red areas in Ohio.
"Closing loopholes" and "cutting deductions" effect the middle class. Raising the tax rate on the top 2% of earners doesn't.
It's really not that difficult to understand.
Well, to be fair that video that was just posted in another thread accused the wealthy Americans of using tax loopholes...not poor or middle class Americans. I've always associated the use of loopholes with the wealthy trying to "get out" of something...like paying taxes.
So, in my mind it made sense, compromise wise for the Reps to say they'd close loopholes as part of compromise with the increased taxes. Loopholes being closed took something away from the wealthy to prevent then from avoiding taxes.
Deductions are things that middle, lower middle, and working class people use to stay afloat. Child tax credit, earned income credit, deductions for mortgages, student loan payments, charitable donations... Loopholes do usually effect the wealthier Americans (because typically they involve storing money offshore) but it's not *just* loopholes, and Middle Class America can take advantage of those too.
Austerity doesn't help economies bounce back, which is being proven right now in Europe. Now isn't the time to cut income from the middle and working classes.
Agreed. "Now is the time for all good men to come to aid of their country." We need to stop spending. Stimulus. Entitlements. Stop class warfare. Don't gouge any one group. Just cut more spending!
It's a little "rich" hearing a Republican bitching about a Democrat's "My way or the highway." Truth be told, I think Obama is doing this as payback to Boehner for failing to strike a grand bargain in the summer of 2011.
Not that it makes it right.
I think Obama does want (or at least fully expects) to cut entitlement spending, but neither side can say "sure let's cut Medicare, here are specifics" without that being the advertising clip of the 2014 and 2016 campaigns. It's chicken, pure and simple.
When you say stop class warfare and don't gouge any one group. Just cut more spending! Where would you like to cut spending from? Clearly, cutting entitlements is class warfare and going after one group. The poor. I think we can all agree Romney is rich. Do you think cutting entitlements will hurt him? Would gouge him?
Why do people think the poor dont work hard enough? Being poor does not mean you are lazy. Honestly, we all need people to work low paying jobs because someone has to. Since Im not going to do it, I dont mind helping them through entitlements have a decent standard of living.
My pastor preached on this last Sunday. We are doing a month long series on what would Jesus do. It was so good. I just can't imagine Jesus saying lets cut Medicaid, food stamps and Medicare. That would never happen. I could imagine him saying why are you spending so much on the military.
ITA!
I fully believe that the R's strategy of ending/limiting deductions and closing loopholes would increase taxes on the middle class. I think it's crazy that capital gains are taxed at such a low rate, and I don't believe that raising it to 20% would have a negative effect on investing. I just don't.
There was a fantastic series in the NYT this week about corporate subsidies. It was called "The United States of Subsidies". Very eye-opening.
The problem with this line of thinking is that you are considering this as 2 career (or even 1) driven PEOPLE. Small businesses pay the INDIVIDUAL rate. So let's say my husband earned $250K in his business, his business would pay $62,500 of that in taxes at at 25% tax rate. THEN he would get taxed as an individual on what he brought home of that $250K at a similar tax rate. So on that $250K he would pay over $100K of it in taxes. That probably doesn't sound so bad except a lot of things that people think are deductible are absolutely NOT deductible. When the economy was great business had lots of employees and large workspaces, equipment, etc. As you lose those workers your lease on your large workspace doesn't just go away. If you haven't owned your own business you may not understand that commercial and residential services are much different. A small leases on an office space in my area is typically 5 years not the 6-12 months a residential lease is. You don't go month to month on your phone service. For 2 commercial lines here it is over $300 a month and you have to commit to a 3 year contract etc. Add lines and it goes up around $100 per line per month. So once you lose those workers you still have these exhorbitant expenses and many business borrow to get through it. The payments you make on those loans is NOT, I repeat, NOT deductible from income.
So let's say you make $250K after rent, utilities, payroll, etc. and make $75K in debt payments to cover those loans, you are still taxed as if you brought home $250 and NOT as if you brought home $175K. So you really bring home $175K less the $62500 in taxes so you brought home $112500. THEN since the IRS thinks you brought home $250K less the 62500, you are then taxed again personally as if you brought home $187500 instead of $112500. At a 25% tax rate again on the take home you pay another $46875 making your real net $65,625. Also mind you as the owner of your own business your health insurance is not always tax deductible under the complicated self employment rubric. Our health insurance year before last was $19,200 but since the IRS thinks he brought home $187500 we wouldn't be able to deduct it. We also could not deduct our home mortgage interest and out of $10K in daycare costs we were only able to deduct something like $600. So out of $65625 he also paid $19200 in health insurance which now brings the net down to $46425.00.
These aren't real numbers but they aren't that far off (our tax rate was 27% last yer and we came NOWHERE close to $250K even in gross profit). Someone earning 50K as a nurse in a hospital has a 7.7% tax rate and likely has some if not most of their health insurance covered for them along with other employee benefits. I
Please tax us harder. We're greedy rich people and deserve to pay.