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Question for the born-again Christians (re: Sandy Hook)
It's been on my mind a lot since Friday and I'm hoping someone can share their views. I'm not here to start a debate, just to get some perspective.
First, this is purely hypothetical as I don't know if any of the adult victims are believers or their religious background.
In the Baptist church I attended it was drilled into our heads over and over that the ONLY way to Heaven was through salvation. That you may be the most kind and wonderful person but your good deeds won't do you any favors eternally if you haven't accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. Ergo, everyone who has not been saved goes to Hell.
Using this example...is there anyone who honestly believes that a non-believing teacher who used her body to shield her students and took bullets to save the lives of as many children as she could is burning in the same Hell as the man who killed 20 children and 7 adults in one morning?
I want to ask this to the people I know in real life who believe that salvation is the only way to Heaven but I'm too emotional to get into it with someone face-to-face right now. I figured I would start here and maybe others can shed some light for me.
Re: Question for the born-again Christians (re: Sandy Hook)
I am a Bible believing born again Christian and the answer to your question is yes. To receive salvation, you do not have to do good deeds or try hard to be a "good person" to get into heaven. All that is required is your faith in Christ.
Having said that, I would speculate that a person that performs an act of heroism as such would most likely have some form of relationship with God in order to do something so selfless.
You don't believe someone who doesn't have a relationship with God would take a bullet for her students?
I know you don't mean to be, but this is offensive.
It's actually so offensive, I think she MUST mean it to be. Atheists are not capable of loving and selfless behavior, candygirl29? Really? Wow.
Um, no.
Your speculation is offensive and false.
Also, you only have to make that speculation in order to feel okay with the fact that you believe that a selfless hero would go to hell. Not only that, a relationship with God wouldn't help, according to your own beliefs. And if they were a super religious Muslim, Jew, or Hindu, your beliefs would put them in hell too.
The kind of God that some people believe in is a terrible, unjust God.
I did not post this to be offensive or get into a "mean girl" debate. I am simply answering the OPs question. My point is that the crux of Christianity is centered around acts of selflessness- Christ's death on the cross being the ultimate example.
I wasn't judging an atheist or any faith. I am speaking on behalf of Christianity.
This is why that brand of Christianity is bullshitt.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not beleive in Hell, so no, I do not think that teacher is there. She is asleep in death (as are the children and the gunman). They will all be resurrected during Armaggedon and judged by God. If he sees that their heart is good, they will be allowed to live forever in a paradise earth. If he sees that their heart is wicked, they will die again. They won't go to Hell- they will just be "asleep."
And from what a PP said- the Bible doesn't say that you only need to have faith in Jesus and make him your savior to be blessed by God. Does the scripture "Faith without works is dead" mean nothing to you??? (James 2:26)
Where did CandyGirl say that? I think y'all are reading too much into her comment. I don' believe she meant that a non-christian can't be a hero, or compassionate or anything like that.
Anyway, to answer the OP's question whether people who have not been "saved" go to heaven, I think it depends on what they personally believe. Perhaps they don't believe in heaven? Are we then forcing our religious beliefs upon them? Forcing heaven upon them when maybe that is not where they would want to go?
As a born again Christian who grew up Catholic, I can tell you that I don't believe you have to speak the words "God, I accept you as my Lord and Savior" to be saved. God knows one's heart and it is He who is the final judge (in the Christian context). We, as fallible humans, cannot judge another human.
However, I know some Christians may find peace and comfort believing those who lost their lives senselessly have have found their way to heaven.
You're a bigot. Congratulations!
I think it was when she said, "a person that performs an act of heroism as such would most likely have some form of relationship with God."
At best, that statement forces atheists to choose between the possibility of being a hero and their identity as an atheist. At worst, it implies that atheists and people of other faiths cannot be heroes.
It's this line:
"Having said that, I would speculate that a person that performs an act of heroism as such would most likely have some form of relationship with God in order to do something so selfless."
I'm not sure though if it means you must be Christian admittedly, or if it's a sort of pat-on-the-head 'Oh, well you might not have realized it, but you really had that connection with God all along. How else could you be such a selfless hero?'
If it's the former, it's just ignorant. If it's the latter, it's just condescendingly offensive. And ignorant.
OK, well she might identify with God...hence the reason she chose that word. So, replace God with another word Allah, Yahweh. Mother Nature, Higher Power or inner Moral Compass.
There is evil in this world and I believe she was trying to say that a person who exhibits heroism embodies what is good with humankind.
So, you think she meant: "a person that performs an act of heroism as such would most likely have some form of relationship with something."
So, you believe someone can be a hero, have the presence of mind to act in a selfless manner but yet have no inner moral compass (regardless of religion)?
Now who's adding meaning where there is none?
My point was that you're completely changing the meaning of her statement. What she said imposes her belief on actual heroes. If you change what she said, then yes it's more acceptable - but it's also no longer what she said.
And context has nothing to do with her statement? She says she is a bible believing born again christian...so it makes sense she approaches the subject from a christian standpoint.
I certainly don't believe she meant you must be a christian to be a hero. She was simply making a statement based on what she knows - Christianity.
Wiccans (and I believe Pagans also) do not believe in Hell, or the devil. There is a Heaven but it's called Summerland. So what's your take on that one?
Btw, this is some thread. Really some thread.
I always say let Maker be the judge and jury of it all.
Except that's not what she said. If that's what she meant, she's capable of coming back and clarifying. Until then, I don't think it's your place to put words in her mouth. Even if it were, you're making quite a stretch with the plain language of her statement. I don't see how you could possibly interpret "People who don't acknowledge Christ as their savior go to hell" and "People who commit selfless acts of heroism obviously have a relationship with God" to be referring to the general goodness of humanity.
The Bible does teach that the Devil is real, so yes, we believe in him. He is the ruler of the world (1 John 5:19), which is why horrible things happen. We believe in Heaven- but our belief (based on research of the Bible) is that only a select few (144,000 people) go there to rule over all of the people on Earth. They rule alongside Jesus. And they will be spirits, like Jesus is now, in heaven.
This thread is hilarious. Candygirl said exactly what she meant to say, Cincy.
Why don't you just disagree with her instead of trying to twist her words? She said the teacher must have had some relationship with God to give of herself so selflessly. The implication of that statement is that an atheist would not be capable of that selfless act because they don't have a relationship with God.
I am not trying to twist words, I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think she is coming from a state of mind where she personally has a relationship with God and her statement could still ring true if you replace the word God (for those who don't believe in God) with whatever higher power you choose to associate with. Atheists don't believe that God exists, doesn't mean they don't have a moral code they live by.
Atheist=/=immoral - I just don't believe that is what she was trying to say.
Except that you're the one bringing morality into this. She outright said that it doesn't matter- only your faith in Christ matters. Which has nothing to do with morality. Thus, shooter gets to go to heaven if he accepted Christ. Teacher does not get to go to heaven (despite acts of heroism) if she doesn't.
Edit: (because 30 posts was a long time ago)
To receive salvation, you do not have to do good deeds or try hard to be a "good person" to get into heaven. All that is required is your faith in Christ.