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Tofumonkey
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Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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pot-stirring newbie - Chinese worker's note found
http://www.pandce.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=110309
Linking to GBCN post because I can't find the original link.
This has been playing on my mind lately and I'm curious to see what the opinions over here on this might be.
I'm always fascinated by the ZOMGCHINAISUPEREVIL knee-jerk response that people tend to have.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
Re: pot-stirring newbie - Chinese worker's note found
Since you lived in China maybe you would know the answer to this.
My only experience with China was that a few colleagues of mine were on a trip there for work (Stainless steel industry) and during dinner one of them became ill and died. China withheld releasing the body for an extended period of time.
Is that normal, not just evil China?
I don't have the answer to it, but I do have a few thoughts on it.
Ever notice that although there is a very large foreigner/expat population in China that has grown exponentially within the last 15 years - but you still very, very rarely hear about foreigner deaths or violent crime against foreigners in China?
This is because China is very aware of its' image in the west, and the damage that would be caused to this image if foreigners there were getting killed, hurt, etc.
There are some strange laws and rules there - that are different for foreigners and locals. In some areas if you hit a local with a car you are fined. Possibly imprisoned. If you hit a foreigner - you go to prison. As a foreigner there I could (and did) walk in a beeline across a busy freeway and cars will do ANYTHING to avoid you. If you are trying to cross a busy street and are surrounded by locals, you learn to separate yourself from the locals, become clearly visible and just go for it.
Again, it depends on where you are. In areas like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou/Shenzhen areas you will have a bit more "equality", but in the rural areas, forget it. No local party office wants to EVER deal with a foreigner death or injury - it's a nightmare for them.
I've been turned away from hospitals there because I was a foreigner - because they were more afraid of either injuring me or me dying there and them having to deal with that.
Another issue is that they have two levels of police there - the Jing Cha (regular, uniformed police) and the PSB (public security bureau) - as a foreigner in China, the Jing Cha have no right to speak to you, stop you, detain you, arrest you or even stop you for a driving offence (foreigners are given white license plates - the same as diplomats and officials, for this reason). So a common joke among expats there is that if the Jing Cha want to talk to you they'll knock on your door. If the PSB wants to talk to you you'll come home one day and they'll be drinking tea at your kitchen table.
So, in my understanding - your colleagues were Westerners in a rural area at a factory with international links and one actually died - complete and utter nightmare situation for the local ,municipal, provincial and FEDERAL party departments, so this would have been handled very carefully.
Another thing of note in communist China is that people in government tend to keep their heads down and pass things on. When in doubt, delay, delay. Oh, and you'll need a seal and a stamp for that.
So it wouldn't have been a matter of guy at a restaurant dies, ambulance comes, goes to hospital, officially pronounced dead, embassy contacted, autopsy done, body released to family and flown "home".
It would have been more of a PSB officials brought in from nearest major city, restaurant sealed, hospital carefully selected, other patients moved from area of hospital to set up a dedicated area, hospital doesn't admit body until proper paperwork from PSB is delivered signed, stamped and sealed by the relevant department head in the province's capital... and I would bet that any autopsy would have been incredibly extensive to find and evidence a pre-existing condition that would absolve the restaurant, the town, the environment, the travel to and the general country of China.
Then, once that is all done and signed and sealed off - the body is released home.
It sounds awful to hold a body for so long from a grieving family overseas - but China has specific visas to come and collect foreign bodies... and they're not short visas. I don't think it's a situation of China's communist party going "mwah ha ha ha ha ha. How can we drag this out as long as possible? " so much as them going "oh holy ***! Crap crap crap! Delay until we can come out of this squeaky clean!"
Just my experience there, though.
Also, this is why I had to quarantine my dog and cat IN CHINA in order to take them OUT of China. For 3 months!
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
Have you ever met a Chinese person (born in China) that had poor handwriting? Probably not. Chinese people are taught English characters the way that they are taught Chinese characters - careful, precise strokes to make each character in a particular order - so it wouldn't surprise me at all that a handwritten note from a Chinese person could have horrid English grammar but beautiful penmanship.
The broken English - at first I thought that it would be strange for a factory worker to have enough of a grasp of English to write something like that, but then when I read the phrase "and rude remark" it sounds as though they wrote the note in Chinese and translated it directly from a dictionary.
Then I realised as well that this isn't a factory, it's a labour camp (prison) and my view on the entire thing changed entirely - and I doubt many on here would agree with me.
I don't necessarily think it's a hoax, but I do think that you're in prison (and for a reason) and you're in a Chinese prison, WTF did you expect the conditions to be like? - another unpopular opinion of mine that prisons in western countries are far too cushy. If prison were a hellhole labour camp you probably wouldn't risk it to steal an iPhone.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
And you don't think that people are being done to the same for their beliefs or actions in America or elsewhere?
Canada may have some laws that I don't agree with, doesn't mean I don't have to follow them or can legitimately cry foul when I'm held to those laws.
When it comes to Fa Lun Gong in China there is a lot of interesting material available - I particularly like Jan Wong's views on the subject - a Canadian born of Chinese heritage reporter that has covered a number of sensitive issues in China from research within the country itself.
There is a lot of history behind the fa lun gong movement - much of which originates with zealots and extortion of poor farming communities looking to cure debilitating health problems, which led to the initial outlaw of the practice (from my understanding). The practice has grown dramatically from those origins, but it can be easily compared to a cult in a lot of ways, with members (even young children) committing acts of public suicide, etc.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm hardly an expert and there is I'm sure plenty that can contradict my views on this - but from living all over China doing the type of job I did I quickly learned that there are always two sides to every story - and that the things I learned about China back home were grossly tailored. Tiananmen Square incident, for example, not at all what I was taught, and there is a whole other side to that story.
I went there fully expecting to see tanks trolling down the street. I'll admit I was a tad disappointed. Well, until I moved up North and got to drive one.
As for political opinions - China is opening up on this rather steadily. There's a really exciting project at work over the next two years to open this up in a major way, and I've been surprised at how receptive key components have been.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
Wait, you're saying that the US has political prisoners?
I hope I am misunderstanding your second point, but it sounds like you are saying that it's OK to imprison people for their political beliefs because, well, that's the law and people should follow it.
Even if the US does have political prisoners, I'm pretty sure they aren't in forced labor camps.
I don't feel that it's a black and white issue - that there is an awful lot of grey when it comes to the legality, lawfulness, etc. of believing or feeling something vs expessing and acting upon something that is knowingly unlawful where you are but then crying foul when you are held to the laws of the country you are in.
Like freedom of speech. Canada has freedom of speech but with limitations, unlike the States from which I understand there are no limitations (?) - so Canadians are aware of the limitations and follow them, and are subjected to known consequences when they break those laws, right? Just because they are different laws from the States, it doesn't mean that they are universally wrong or unfair, they are just different.
I don't feel that people should be imprisoned simply for their beliefs, but do feel that their actions are very different from their beliefs - not sure if I'm getting my point across very well.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
LOL, perhaps the exception to prove the rule?
In the UK I run a number of Chinese companies, including a school. Of the thousands of overseas born Chinese I've dealt with at all levels of English language careful and precise English character writing seems to be the norm, because of how English language and Chinese pinyin (chinese written in English characters - used for typing) are taught.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
This is my hunch too. It's relatively easy to open up a box, slip something in there and reseal it. We used to reseal stuff when I worked retail all the time.
I see what you're saying, but sometimes laws *are* wrong and unfair. If we were talking about Saudi Arabia, would you say that women in prison for driving cars shouldn't complain about prison conditions because, well, they knew they weren't supposed to be driving cars?
I don't believe that people should be imprisoned for advocating for human rights, period. If that's against the law, then it's an unjust law regardless of the country.
It sounds like you are saying that it's OK to believe in banned civil rights (for example) but you shouldn't act upon those beliefs because it's against the law and you should know that. Or if you are imprisoned for trying to get civil rights, you really shouldn't complain about it.
This letter was from a labour camp ie: prison. It is not from a government owned factory in China that is forcing people to work ungodly hours against their will and violating all sorts of human rights codes. (and yes, those do exist. That's why it's never over 42 degrees in some provinces, according to government weather channels - because anything over 42 and you need to shut down a factory ; ) ) It's from a prison, from a prisoner complaining about the conditions in prison. We don't know why this person is in prison - are they there because they were trying to campaign for civil rights? Maybe. Or they are there because they raped and murdered a family of 7.
My thoughts are that all a Chinese prisoner has to throw out there is Fa Lun Gong people are here and everyone in the West is all ZOMG! They must all be unjust prisoners! When really, this guy is complaining about the work conditions in prison without telling anyone why he is there. If he was one of the mad men that stabbed children in a village school and wrote that letter complaining about his prison conditions in the work camp, being paid very little and not having weekends off - would you care?
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
Well I would care because that's sort of what we grow up with here- that idealized, protect even the rights of the criminal from cruel & unusual punishment thing. Well, maybe not the death-penalty-lovers in Texas, but I like to think most Americans are reassured that you can't just disappear, never to be heard from again, to a far away labor camp in northern Alaska or something. We don't distinguish between cruel and non-cruel treatment based on whether the prisoner is just or unjust.* And if we're doing it right, the concept of an 'unjust' prisoner shouldn't even make sense (which isn't to say I'm a huge fan of how our penal system operates).
The fact that you have to speculate at all is what a lot of us would find disturbing. 'Well maybe that person in a labor camp was only an civil rights activist... but maybe he stabbed little kids! So why get so fussed about it!' In our views of what a legal system should be, there shouldn't be a question of whether the person is there for reasons like political dissent, or following the 'wrong' religion, and whatever the reason for imprisonment, we just don't do that. There is (hopefully) a transparency and humanity (even for those sentenced to death) to it.
And having said all that, I still don't really buy this as real.
*with the notable and shameful exception of things like Abu Ghraib