WOW! The Pope is resigning due to health reasons...

MommyLiberty5013

1st time in 600 years a Pope has stepped down.

Apparently, since no mourning period has to occur, the Church will select a new Pope by March 14th before the start of Holy Week.

cincychick35

I just called my Dad and told him about this.  He was in total shock.

I still remember when Pope John Paul II passed and they held the conclave to pick Pope Benedict.

 

lasposa425

Something tells me it isn't health related at all.  My parents are probably the most Catholic people you will meet and they are just so surprised.  Yes, his age is advanced but his health had been good.  John Paul II's health was declining for years and he still stayed put---I think there is more to the story here...

missymo

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know if I should believe the tin-foil theories, or just assume it's the truth that he is too ill.  

Also, I've never understood how the Pope isn't a "false idol."  The whole kiss the ring thing seems overly subservient for someone who isn't God. 

EllaHella

I said this elsewhere and I truly believe it. I highly doubt it is scandal.  The Church does a handy job of managing those and burying them.   

I would wager he has a terminal and devastating ailment.

I am not sad to see him go.

MommyLiberty5013

EllaHella:

I said this elsewhere and I truly believe it. I highly doubt it is scandal.  The Church does a handy job of managing those and burying them.   

I would wager he has a terminal and devastating ailment.

I am not sad to see him go.

I am not Catholic and don't have an opinion either way except recognizing it's a bid deal...but what's your thought there on the bolded?

cincychick35

missymo:

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know if I should believe the tin-foil theories, or just assume it's the truth that he is too ill.  

Also, I've never understood how the Pope isn't a "false idol."  The whole kiss the ring thing seems overly subservient for someone who isn't God. 

Meh, it is just a symbolic gesture of respect toward an person of authority.  I don't look at is as any different than when we rise when the President enter a room, or when the British rise when the Queen of England enters a room, or when those present rise when a Judge enters the Court Room, or when the Head of any State enters a room. 

missymo

cincychick35:

missymo:

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know if I should believe the tin-foil theories, or just assume it's the truth that he is too ill.  

Also, I've never understood how the Pope isn't a "false idol."  The whole kiss the ring thing seems overly subservient for someone who isn't God. 

Meh, it is just a symbolic gesture of respect toward an person of authority.  I don't look at is as any different than when we rise when the President enter a room, or when the British rise when the Queen of England enters a room, or when those present rise when a Judge enters the Court Room, or when the Head of any State enters a room. 

Oh, I think that is very different.  Showing respect by standing is not the same as being compelled to kiss someone's ring.  Regardless, our President does not have papal supremacy or infallibility.  That's where the false idol question comes in for me.  

cincychick35

missymo:

cincychick35:

missymo:

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know if I should believe the tin-foil theories, or just assume it's the truth that he is too ill.  

Also, I've never understood how the Pope isn't a "false idol."  The whole kiss the ring thing seems overly subservient for someone who isn't God. 

Meh, it is just a symbolic gesture of respect toward an person of authority.  I don't look at is as any different than when we rise when the President enter a room, or when the British rise when the Queen of England enters a room, or when those present rise when a Judge enters the Court Room, or when the Head of any State enters a room. 

Oh, I think that is very different.  Showing respect by standing is not the same as being compelled to kiss someone's ring.  Regardless, our President does not have papal supremacy or infallibility.  That's where the false idol question comes in for me.  

You are not Catholic (by your own admission) yet you seemed convinced of this?  With all due respect, I grew up Catholic and your views do not reflect those of (most) Catholics.  And, trust me I have a gazillion problems with the Catholic church but to have faith the pope is infallible regarding matters of the church is not one of them.

And, I think there may be a few people who will disagree with you about our President and Presidential Supremacy.  Just sayin'. 

missymo

cincychick35:

missymo:

cincychick35:

missymo:

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know if I should believe the tin-foil theories, or just assume it's the truth that he is too ill.  

Also, I've never understood how the Pope isn't a "false idol."  The whole kiss the ring thing seems overly subservient for someone who isn't God. 

Meh, it is just a symbolic gesture of respect toward an person of authority.  I don't look at is as any different than when we rise when the President enter a room, or when the British rise when the Queen of England enters a room, or when those present rise when a Judge enters the Court Room, or when the Head of any State enters a room. 

Oh, I think that is very different.  Showing respect by standing is not the same as being compelled to kiss someone's ring.  Regardless, our President does not have papal supremacy or infallibility.  That's where the false idol question comes in for me.  

You are not Catholic (by your own admission) yet you seemed convinced of this?  With all due respect, I grew up Catholic and your views do not reflect those of (most) Catholics.  And, trust me I have a gazillion problems with the Catholic church but to have faith the pope is infallible regarding matters of the church is not one of them.

And, I think there may be a few people who will disagree with you about our President and Presidential Supremacy.  Just sayin'. 

They will disagree that I question the dogma of papal supremacy and infallibility and wonder how it relates to the idea of idolatry? Yeah, I assume there are many, many people who disagree with my thoughts on the subject.  It's quite an unpopular opinion. 

My not being Catholic does not preclude me from having an opinion on the subject.  I have an opinion on most things.  

Food for thought:

 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (RSV Exodus 20:3-6).   

lasposa425

EllaHella:

I said this elsewhere and I truly believe it. I highly doubt it is scandal.  The Church does a handy job of managing those and burying them.   

I would wager he has a terminal and devastating ailment.

I am not sad to see him go.

I don't think it is a scandal either (I mean, a new scandal because there are  other major scandals that the church still hasn't properly dealt with) but that maybe he was getting pressure to do something to address those scandals or to modernize the church or something. A lot of Catholics found him too traditionalist, not embracing of the youth of the church (like JPII was), etc.  And this is a sidenote but I think another Vatican council is going to take place with the new pope.  The last council (Vatican II) was held in the 1960s and the times they are a changing...

EllaHella

MommyLiberty5013:

EllaHella:

I said this elsewhere and I truly believe it. I highly doubt it is scandal.  The Church does a handy job of managing those and burying them.   

I would wager he has a terminal and devastating ailment.

I am not sad to see him go.

I am not Catholic and don't have an opinion either way except recognizing it's a bid deal...but what's your thought there on the bolded?

I don't respect a multitude of things he passionately stands for and makes the focus of his papal legacy.  He is an extremist and made it his mission to turn back to pre-Vatican II traditions.  Basically the same reasons I don't respect the stances of various politicians and Protestant religious leaders who focus on social "evils" as opposed to humanitarian issues and helping the flock grow closer to God. 

I am realistic and realize the Church won't do a 180 on their doctrine.  But a Pope who is a little more humanitarian wouldn't hurt.

cincychick35

Missy, I am well aware of the bible verse you have quoted. 

The act of bowing or bending the knee before the pope and kissing his ring is not an act of worship, but rather a sign of respect for his office as the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the universal Church on earth. Catholics worship God alone. 

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13 

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the "nothingness of the creature" who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world. 

2134 The first commandment summons man to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him above all else. 

2135 "You shall worship the Lord your God" (Mt 4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment. 

?The word "worship?? comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God. 

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn?t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.? 

Full text is here. 

To further illustrate this point, turn to 1 Chronicles 29:20-21: 

?Then David said to the whole assembly, ?Praise the Lord your God.? So they all praised the Lord, the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord and the king.?

Any non-Catholic reading this verse would be able to make the distinction between the act of worship to God and the act of giving honor to the king. 

On the meaning of honor, St. Thomas Aquinas states:

?Honor denotes a witnessing to a person's excellence?Now witness is borne either before God or before man. Before God, Who is the searcher of hearts, the witness of one's conscience suffices. Wherefore honor, so far as God is concerned, may consist of the mere internal movement of the heart, for instance when a man acknowledges either God's excellence or another man's excellence before God. But, as regards men, one cannot bear witness, save by means of signs, either by words, as when one proclaims another's excellence by word of mouth, or by deeds, for instance by bowing, saluting, and so forth, or by external things, as by offering gifts, erecting statues, and the like. Accordingly honor consists of signs, external and corporal.

Reverence is not the same as honor: but on the one hand it is the primary motive for showing honor, in so far as one man honors another out of the reverence he has for him; and on the other hand, it is the end of honor, in so far as a person is honored in order that he may be held in reverence by others.?

Full text is here. 

St. Thomas goes on to say that ??.honor is nothing but an acknowledgment of a person's excelling goodness. Now a person's excellence may be considered, not only in relation to those who honor him, in the point of his being more excellent than they, but also in itself, or in relation to other persons, and in this way honor is always due to a person, on account of some excellence or superiority."

Jan8

I have a honest question about worshiping God alone as a Catholic...How can you say "Hail Mary" and why do you confess to someone when only God can forgive your sins?  Why is there a middle person?  To me, you do not hail anyone but God.  I don't understand those things. 

I went to Catholic school 5 - 12 grade and know a lot about the religion but I never could understand this and my religion teachers could not explain it.  I am not Catholic.  DH grew up Catholic but also could not get past the above things and converted.  

Chloeagh

As far as I understand it, it works the same way as intercession of the saints. In all sects of Christianity, we pray for others and ask others to pray for us. In the Catholic church, it's kind of the same thing. Catholics ask Mary to pray for them. They don't pray to Mary or ask her to forgive their sins.

TXKristan

Jan8:

I have a honest question about worshiping God alone as a Catholic...How can you say "Hail Mary" and why do you confess to someone when only God can forgive your sins?  Why is there a middle person?  To me, you do not hail anyone but God.  I don't understand those things. 

I went to Catholic school 5 - 12 grade and know a lot about the religion but I never could understand this and my religion teachers could not explain it.  I am not Catholic.  DH grew up Catholic but also could not get past the above things and converted.  

Regarding the "Hail Mary" - the prayer is completely scriptural.  Look in Luke 1:28.  Many translations say "greetings", which is essentially what "hail" means in this context.  The prayer is basically saying "Hey, Mary - I really respect who you are as a woman of faith.  It's amazing that you gave birth to Jesus!  Do you mind praying for me, Mary?"  

 

Regarding confessing sins to a priest, here is a good explanation - http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/confession_of_sin_to_a_priest.htm

TarponMonoxide

Ya actually believe that one?

Nope. Something else is in the wind.

There's LOTS of competition for the RCC --- in this area there's nothing but store front "Church of What's Happenin' Nows" opening; a Christian church/congregation this and a megachurch that -- and the Pentecostals seem to have a good grip on newcomers who want to worship.

ohioloveyou

I'll probably decide what to think about the reason of Benedict's resignation when I see who they choose as a new pope.  More liberal pope...maybe there's something to the rumors.  Same hard-line conservative...he probably really is sick. 

Unfortunately, the Catholic church is becoming more conservative and the Pope's position is one of conservancy...he's supposed to keep the Church strong and on the right path.  Now matter how much I would like to see some change (and I'm a pretty devoted Catholic) I doubt it will happen right now.