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Vanilla, Sex, and Cowardice
Hi Ladies,
I've been lurking over on TB, as I'm hoping to TTC this fall, but I'm having some...issues with my DH, and I need some outside advice.
When we got married, I was sexually experienced, and DH was a virgin raised in a rather religious household. He was horrified at the idea that I wanted (wanted!) to give him oral sex, because he seems to have this hangup that "penises are weird and gross"
I've had an interest in BDSM, and asked him to explore that with me. He flat out refused. Won't even tie my hands to the headboard with a tie or scarf. If I want to feel immobilized, I have to hang on myself. When I asked him why he was so uncomfortable with the idea, he demurred, giving me a half-assed answer like "what if the house catches on fire while you're chained to the headboard?" (Really?!)
So sex has been extraordinarily vanilla. We explored the kama sutra a bit, but he really tends to prefer missionary or cowgirl, with the occasional spice of doggy style when I give him puppy-dog eyes and ask for it that way.
We had a rough patch where he all but gave up on sex and we didn't have sex for three months. When I jumped him out of sheer frustration, he didn't respond to me, and when I asked him what was wrong he was all "Oh, this is your show. I always have to do the work." I was seriously hurt and just left and slept in the spare bedroom. The next day, I wrote him a letter (because it's the only way I can communicate stuff like that....more on that later) telling him that I was hurt and that I really wanted our sex life to work, and that evening we talked and everything seemed to be good....if back to our old vanilla routine.
A month ago I asked him if he was at all interested in 69'ing, to which he replied "ew, no!". Later he was like "So, um, if there's anything you wanna try, let me know." I was in such utter shock and disbelief that I just shrugged and went to sleep. I couldn't even figure how to verbalize that I HAD been suggesting things, and every single deviant thing I wanted had been shot down.
The thing is, I'm great at writing, but terrible at talking. If there's something serious I need to tell him, it's more likely that he'll find a letter on his desk after I leave for work.
Flash forward to last night, and we're getting frisky. I start fondling him and he jerks away, saying something like "he's excited enough. You can touch everywhere else though"
My immediate thought is "Oh ***, am I just really bad at this? Am I so bad at hand jobs that even my own husband doesn't want me touching him there?" I can't say anything, because I'm a coward.
Don't mistake me - my husband is, in every other way, an amazing husband. We've been married for 7 years now, and we're practically best friends. We hardly ever fight and agree on most everything. Everything but sex, apparently. The only thing I'm uncomfortable talking to him about anymore is sex, and that's probably because I've been shut down so many damn times over the years.
So...I'm at a loss. I'm just so frustrated and hurt and despairing of my sex life ever getting better. I don't even know if this is a rant or a question. Has anyone been through anything like this before? Any advice would be more than welcome.
Re: Vanilla, Sex, and Cowardice
A sex therapist might be a good idea. I also think you need to learn to communicate outside of letters. There is a time a place for that but this isn't it. He is communicating with you and you don't seem to be listening. Not everyone is into the things you listed and that is ok (it doesn't mean he's gay).
He does have issues from his up bringing and that needs to be sorted out quickly, which is why I suggested someone that specialized in sex therapy. You both are bad at communicating, he needs to tell you want he wants and you need to do the same. Pouting and withholding sex or leaving the room is extremely passive aggressive.
Baby Boy loved for 15 weeks, 5/31/11
Baby Girl loved for 16.5 weeks. 3/1/12
I woud start there. Why not make the sex you are having amazing? Whats missing? Are you having an orgasm? You're unhappy with your sex life and it is okay to vocalize that, it's the only way to make it better.
What does he do if you just try something on the spot? He may be insecure and nervous as well. Sometimes in the heat of the moment just going for something works well. Maybe a blindfold, nothing bondage style but just for him to relax and enjoy things or the other way around. Might be more willing if he doesn't feel watched. Heck use a pillow, just resist the urge to smoother him
Baby Boy loved for 15 weeks, 5/31/11
Baby Girl loved for 16.5 weeks. 3/1/12
A guy...who doesn't think oral sex is king.
A guy...who doesn't think mutual oral sex is cool...
A guy...with a hangup about penises.
I second "gay."
As Iago said in Othello -- and I'll change the quote around a bit to fit the situation:
Look to your husband. Observe him well.
Something is weird here. And Yes, I think he is gay.
Something is not right in this situation. You've been married for 7 years and he still has hang-ups about you touching his naughty bits?
No well-adjusted straight man would be telling his wife "no" to even touching Mr. Happy while getting frisky. And after 7 years of marriage, if you both were on the same page sexually (i.e. both attracted to, and wanted to have sexual relations with a member of the opposite sex), you should be able to communicate better than just leaving a Post-It Note on the nightstand that says "Hey, 69 me!" ... and if you couldn't for some reason, the response should be more than "ewwwww!"
Another vote for an incredibly closeted gay man. A gay man that probably can't come to terms with his true feelings because of his over-bearing religious raising that most likely told him being gay will send him directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
I'm more than willing to start validating people's ideas when they start having ideas worth validating
And if not closeted gay, he is immensely puerile and mentally not all there with a horrific hangup. And emotionally a youngster.
See a sex therapist on your own and tell him what you told us.
You should be able to communicate better than just leaving a Post-It Note on the nightstand that says "Hey, 69 me!" ... and if you couldn't for some reason, the response should be more than "ewwwww!"
If the OP had "Hey, 69 me!" flashing and blinking on every single electronic sign on Times Square, that wouldn't amount to a hill of beans, either.
I can't figure out why you choose to stay with a guy who is so utterly unbalanced about his body and about sex with you.
You could suggest counseling but he won't go. That's bad news in itself.
You can tell him you want things to change and he will either give you lip service or tell you he lkies things as they are.
And he will also insist that nothing is wrong with his views about his body or marital sex.
I urge you to put yourself first. Whatever you do, put yourself first. GL.
DO NOT -- I repeat -- DO NOT --- TTC with this guy. Put an end to it immediately. Above all don't catch pregnant. You may have to decide to get this marriage dissolved. I do not know if you can get an anullment -- he's got an abberation, for certain, and I believe that's grounds for an annulment. You'd have to speak to an attorney.
You were 19 years of age when you married this guy. And man, we can all remember the days when we were 19 and every guy we dated was still a fired up bunch of hormones, always trying to get laid. Something is erratically wrong with this picture you have drawn us.
I urge you to get to the bottom of what is happening.
And indeed do not TTC with this guy. If you catch pregnant, you'll be stuck with him for 18 more years if it turns out you and he are going to split up. I do not consider him a good father figure. He's got too many problems.
I think it's more an issue of he never watched porn when he was growing up (and he's rather gotten to like the oral sex, but rather his hangup was "you want to put your mouth there?" because to him it didn't sound very appealing).
He's actually an amazing husband, and a wonderful man. I know it's hard to get that across on the internet where no one knows him, and all you know is our issues with sex. But believe me. I don't regret marrying him, and still very much want to spend the rest of my life with him. If sex is our only issue, and both of us can learn to compromise a little, then I think we're doing pretty good.
Juvenile at times? Yes, but what man isn't in one aspect or another? His just happens to be in sex. I do rather think we'll visit a therapist if things don't improve after we talk. I've said before, the vanilla sex may get routine and repetitive but it's not BAD sex.
So yes, we'll be sitting down and having a chat this weekend and see where it goes from there. If nothing else, you ladies have convinced me that I can't hide behind a letter, no matter how well written, and that I need to step up and tell him that I want something more. He may be quite sheltered in his sexual experience, but I'm kind of a coward when it comes to asking for what I want. Maybe if I let him know that too, then he'll be a bit more understanding when I do ask for certain things. I certainly won't expect to get them all, but a little give and take is all I'm asking.
On the "jump him and see what happens front" I did just that last night, and was rewarded with a very watered down version of one of the things I've asked for, which was a huge step for him, and super awesome for me, so I'm hopeful.
And to those who tell me "don't TTC!!" Well...if I didn't think he would be a good father, I wouldn't even bother. I know better than to bring kids into a family where one parent didn't want you. Still, the concern is noted and appreciated.
I don't think anybody said he was a "bad husband". The general consensus is that he might be gay. That doesn't make him a bad person if he is...just possibly not the right person to have your heterosexual marriage with.
My cousin's partner was married for 15 years to a woman, they had 2 kids, the house in the suburbs, the whole 9 yards. Eventually, he came to terms with his sexuality and they divorced. His ex-wife will still telll anybody that he was an amazing husband and father during their marriage. Being a caring individual that treats your spouse well isn't limited to the heterosexual community.
I'm more than willing to start validating people's ideas when they start having ideas worth validating
My husband doesn't like oral sex either. He tells me it's disrespectful to women and would just rather not go there. We are both very timid in the bedroom, I was a virgin when we married and he had only been with one other person. It bothers me that he doesn't want to try oral sex, but I am very satisfied without it.
As for the part mentioned where he doesn't want you touching his penis--this one is a little weird. Maybe he is afraid he won't last as long if you stimulate him too much beforehand?
I do think it would be good for you two to have a counseling session. Maybe he has hang ups about sex because of his childhood? Was he molested? His parents must have not been very affectionate in his household growing up. Good luck to you, I hope you get this sorted out.
Not to threadjack here, but how is that disrespectful to women? I think it's more disrespectful to not even try it if it's something your partner wants. And does he think oral sex for men is also disrespectful? I'm kind of getting the vibe that maybe he just thinks vaginas/vulvas are dirty or something.
My H is almost reverent when he goes down on me, so I'm not getting the connection to disrespect.
Don't jump to the "gay" assumption, like some others are pressing. Is it possible? Sure, I guess. It could be possible with anyone though. There are things my husband wants to try but I don't. There are times when I just want a break to make things last longer. Does that make me a lesbian? No. It's unfair for others to assume that he's at fault for not being interested in the same things you are. I understand your frustration in wanting to try those things, but that's probably where the therapy will come into play.
Also, pleeeease don't listen to the people telling you to leave him. I believe in marriage and I believe it's something you fight for. This is supposed to be a friendly environment where people freely ask for support or advice. Not for us to jump to conclusions that your husband is a bad man.
From personal experience, my husband and I had problems with sex for a couple years. It was painful for me and he had a hard time understanding why I was never interested. He wasn't mean, but he felt personally attacked and thought I just wasn't attracted to him. Talking is hard, but that's what saved our sex life. Everything is better, but it did take a year or so once we really started trying to fix it. I suggest trying your best to sit and talk with him but not making him feel like it's all his fault either. Just explain your feelings and pick his brain a little. If you have a hard time, and would rather write a letter, maybe try taking notes ahead of time? Jot down some thoughts so if you get uncomfortable and start stumbling, you have something to reference to help you through.
I really hope you guys find a way to work this out. Best of luck.
My husband was a virgin and I was not our first time together so I understand the different experience levels. That being said my experience before my husband was vanilla and I was not comfortable with talking to the others about spicing up the sex life. Now with my husband we are both more comfortable with each other and we can talk about what we want. He will make requests during sex and I do not always agree. I have learned to take time after each incident to talk to him and tell him why I did not want to do whatever it was he requested.... so my question is: Do you only make requests during sex? Or do you mention it at other times? if it is during sex do you take time after an incident to ask why he did not want to do something...
We have discussed it and he now knows that I am much more adventurous in the day time... so if he wants something that is not the norm to try it in the daylight. Try and find out if there are times when he might be more open to new things. Honestly i am tired at night and unless really, really turned on will not start anything after we have said good night. if he starts something I am more along for the ride and less of an active participant (thus it is much better for me during the day) Maybe he will be more open to new things in the daylight like me since he wont be as tired or maybe he would prefer to try new things when it is darker (oral? maybe if he cant see you he can relax more and try to enjoy it instead of trying to read your face to see if your enjoying it.)
as for talking to him do like a PP said, take notes before talking to him about these things, then give him time to think about what you had to say.... this has obviously been on your mind for awhile so give him time, even a day or so if necessary, before you actually discuss making changes. Sometimes my H will make a request and I will say no and it will be a day or two til I realize exactly why I did not want to do it. It took me awhile to realize that I was much more active and into sex in the daytime and the reason why. If your H hasn't thought all this was a big deal he wont have been thinking about it and wont have a reply for you that will explain his views a feelings.
Also on a side note: I don't know if this is true for all but my handcuffs have a release button so his burning house excuse is invalid if you use handcuffs... tell him that and see his reaction. He might seriously be the kind of person who thinks of all those 'what ifs' and thats all thats stopping him from bondage. If he is still against it then you know for sure that it was just a weak excuse and you guys need to work on figuring out why he felt the need to make up something rather than tell you the truth.
Ok, I can relate a bit here. DH was not a virgin when we met (divorced with 3 kids), but he was raised in a very religious house and had a lot of hang ups about sex. Was literally SCARED of oral, it took a couple of years of doing little bits at a time to where he actually could calm down enough to enjoy it. Everything was very "vanilla", it was great...but needed some spicing up.
That said, DH would never contemplate bondage type of stuff (no matter how much I might like to explore it), to him it just seems "wrong" and he loves me too much to do something that might hurt or scare me.
So, I had to start really slow to wake up his inner "guy" from the person who was scared to look at women for fear of going straight to hell. Start with the things that are really naughty for him, even though they are old hat for you. And, well, gush. During, after, the next day...all of it. Boost his confidence that you LOVE it and want more(flirt with him about it, don't make it a big serious discussion).
Your DH sounds like a nice guy who doesn't want to do things that make you uncomfortable or could put you at risk. Once he is more comfortable doing the slightly elevated naughty things, slip something else in every once in a while. If he drops comments about you touch him and it being "gross", then just tell him that you want to and it really turns you on...then tell him to just lay back, relax, and enjoy. Ask him if there are things that he would like to try. Ask him what his fantasies are. (My DH said no and he didn't have any
). When he asks you if there are things you'd like to try, he is TRYING to make you happy and trying to figure out what he can do to make things great for you. DH did the same thing, I just kept telling him "there are lots of things that I'd like to try, but they make you uncomfortable so lets just stick to normal." He'd ask what kind of things and I wouldn't tell him, I just told him when he was "ready". Well, it finally got to him and when I gave him the standard answer he said "look, I know you want to try things, but I have no idea what else there is, so you are going to have to show me and tell me what to do. I might be bad at it, so don't be disappointed."
You can do it, maybe not everything you want, but you can spice things up. You need to put aside your feelings of rejection (I know its hard) and be SUPER confident and positive.
Good luck!
Very late to the game, but would like to add a few ideas.
Sounds like he grew up with some hang-ups. I don't buy the gay thing, it's possible but hardly the first thing I thought of when I read this.
My sister has a hard time with sex because she felt like it was a forbidden subject in our home. Somehow my oldest sister and I didn't have that problem, but possibly because we're readers and read plenty of steamy romance novels.
I would suggest you google "Christian Nymphos" and check it out with your dh. There is a lot of information about sex within marriage along with plenty of how to's. Maybe he needs to read about it and find some freedom for sex within marriage.
You can also try the book Intended for Pleasure - I remember reading it when I was engage and dh and I couldn't keep our hands off each other. Or maybe Sheet Music. Maybe he just needs some freedom to explore and not feel that is is dirty or forbidden.
Meanwhile, keep communicating, even if it is in written form. Sounds like in the other areas he's a good man. I often think of my dh - he's not perfect but he's perfect for me - and maybe that's the same thing for you. Don't give up.
On the bright side, if you have a baby you won't have a libedo for some time
Hey just a suggestion, you said he comes from a religious back grown. there is a book called Real Marriage by Mark Driscoll and his wife. there is a chapter where they talk about how growing up people can view sex as gross and maybe that might help him to deal with his issues. it seems like maybe his faith could ahve to do with it and if he sees there is nothing wrong with wanting or doing things...he might change his tone.
i hope it helps if you read it.
In my upbringing (and in my husband's as well), sexual behavior is absolutely off-limits before marriage. Masturbation is viewed as immoral regardless of whether or not you are married. And suddenly, you are supposed to have mind-blowing sex starting on your wedding night with no understanding of the dirty details of what sex entails. I got over these hangups pretty quickly, and when my husband and I started dating, I was very frank with him about my views on sexuality. We were able to talk about sexuality very openly, and once we were married, our ability to communicate made things much easier. Start by trying to communicate very openly with him. Start by telling him that you enjoy your intimate time together immensely, and tell him what you enjoy in particular. Then explain that you want your marriage and intimacy to grow, and you want to be open about your desires. Read the books that other posters recommended. Intended for Pleasure and Sheet Music are good book recommendations for both of you. I would be cautious about Real Marriage by the Driscolls. It's a little more frank, and the subject matter may intimidate your husband. I also disagree with Mark Driscoll's theology, but that may be more of a personal issue. If those lines of communication don't open up, don't be shy about seeing a sex therapist. There are good Christian sex therapists out there if that makes you more comfortable. It seems like you have a great marriage, and working on this one part of it will make it even better.
I've read the other comments, and for what it's worth, it does NOT sound like he is gay, and I think jumping to that conclusion is juvenile.
Maybe he isn't gay --- something's very wrong about that fear he's got.
Religious up-bringing etc etc. Wont, can't come out to parents, instead lives a lie based on their hopes and core beliefs. Finds a girl and gets married. Then, "sex" becomes an issue.
I don't care how inxperienced any guy is, if he's not turned on by the thought of his partner giving him head or any other manner of sexual kinks, then imo, there is either a major mental blockage here which needs addressing or in this case, I'll side with the others and agree this points to him being gay!
Oh and the reason people here are likely saying he's gay, is because of the detailed information you gave about this in your first post. It's text-book "gay" behaviour.
Vanilla sex is usually fine because while he's having intercouse with you, he could very well be off in fantasy land, imagining, your a guy... Bet you didn't think of that one, huh?
My wife has said she is uncomfortable with oral but is comfortable with spanking. She doesn't want it done to her but is comfortable in giving. A good trade off I thought. It works fine. A limit is put on it as I know that she gets really satified with IC. She has come on tremendously in that area from being just vanilla and wanting lights off and under the covers sex. Some things she will never be comfortable with but being comfortable with spanking seemed to go completely against the vanilla thing so you can never tell.
I don't think the husband is gay either.