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Have a wedding, but not get married...
This is a question that may become more common because of the growing student loan debt & I've been unable to find much information about it online yet.
My fiance and I both have sizable student loans which the monthly payments are calculated by family size and income and the remaining debt will disappear after 10 years of payments. If we marry we stand to lose over $150,000 over the 10 years because we will be a double income and the payments will more than double.
I have 2 children from a previous marriage.
We want to have a child together in a few years, but I have always taught my children and firmly believe myself that people should be married before having children.
It would be very financially scary to be married by law because of the loss of over $150,000 would substantially effect our standard of living, but I don't want to compromise my values.
Would it be wrong to have a wedding (or commitment ceremony) so that we are married in god's eyes, but not on paper? So that we can comfortably add to our family and not compromise my values and confuse my children.
If we did, it would be a tiny ceremony and we would marry officially closer to the 10 years when the loans will be forgiven.
Also, how would we (or should we) explain this to our immediate family who would attend to support us?
What does anyone on here think, any opinions are welcome...
Re: Have a wedding, but not get married...
We want to have a child together in a few years, but I have always taught my children and firmly believe myself that people should be married before having children.
how is skirting the "marriage' issue not compromising your values?
OP - I don't know how I feel about this, honestly. You say you don't want to make it confusing for your kids, but I think doing this IS confusing. And there is just something "off" about it. Specifically because there are so many people fighting for the right to get married. You have that right, but you don't want to use it so that you can avoid fully paying your loans.
SOmething just feels off about it.
~Benjamin Franklin
DS dx with celiac disease 5/28/10
There are several things I don't understand about this post- first of all, why would your payments double? Do you get the loan paid off quicker? You still have to pay all the loan eventually anyways, so I don't understand this. Are you under a hardship deferral or something like that?
Can you refinance, combine or do something else with these loans to keep your payments the same? Take out personal loans at the bank or something like that?
Second, I agree with PP- if you don't want to confuse your kids and go against your morals- then don't. Get married. If that is what you believe in, don't compromise your beliefs. It's just money, my morals are worth more than that to me.
Here's what my assumptions are..... If you stay single with 2 children to support on 1 income, then the loan payments are smaller due to the lower income level. Then you also qualify for the loan forgiveness after 10 years.
If you get married, then your income may double. In turn, having the payments double since you are no longer a single parent raising 2 children and trying to pay off the loans. Then you no longer qualify for the 10 year loan forgiveness. In turn, paying an extra $150k because it is no longer forgiven and your payments are higher (paying off what you actually loaned)....correct?
So here's my take on it, and yes I'm going to be snarky. Please don't screw the system. Too many people already do. Teach your children more morals and values that marriage is important and no amount of money, grants, loan forgiveness, etc, will keep you from marrying the person you love. This will also teach them what the right thing is to do in this situation. By getting "married" and fooling everyone into believing that you are, it is just proving exactly how people abuse the assistance that is available. Will you also then be claiming that you are a single parent with 3 children, after you have your "married" child, and receive more assistance?
Please be a good role model for your children. People will find out someday that you weren't truly "married" on your wedding day, and it will just confuse your kids some day.
TTC since 1/13 DX:PCOS 5/13 (long, anovulatory cycles)
Clomid 50mg 9/13 = BFP! EDD 6/7/14 M/C 5w6d Found 11/4/13
1/14 PCOS / Gluten Free Diet to hopefully regulate my system.
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Surprise BFP 6/14, Beta #1: 126 Beta #2: 340 Stick baby, stick! EDD 2/17/15
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Also, OP, you both went into your schooling KNOWING what the cost would be, correct? So... you're really not "losing" $150k. You're paying for the schooling that you got and went into knowing what it would cost.
~Benjamin Franklin
DS dx with celiac disease 5/28/10
This. Take responsibility for the loan that you chose to get. It is unbelievable to me how many people cheat the system (and even more unbelievable to me that these loans can be 'forgiven' after 10 years). IMO, it's a big f*** you to the people who worked hard to either not take out loans to go into debt or worked hard to pay them off rightfully.
Taking the whole loan situation out of the equation, I don't see anything wrong with having a ceremony before God or whatever you choose to do. Many people do this all the time but do not get legally married on paper.
I agree with all of this. Also, I didn't know school loans could be forgiven after 10 years? Sign me up, I'm about due for that .
100% agree with this. I don't understand how you would be losing $150k or how it would be forgiven in 10 years time. I would say just get married as PPs are saying.
It depends on what your degree is in. I know that teachers qualify for the 10 year loan forgiveness, but unfortunately it isn't available for every degree.
TTC since 1/13 DX:PCOS 5/13 (long, anovulatory cycles)
Clomid 50mg 9/13 = BFP! EDD 6/7/14 M/C 5w6d Found 11/4/13
1/14 PCOS / Gluten Free Diet to hopefully regulate my system.
Chemical Pregnancy 03/14
Surprise BFP 6/14, Beta #1: 126 Beta #2: 340 Stick baby, stick! EDD 2/17/15
Riley Elaine born 2/16/15
TTC 2.0 6/15
Chemical Pregnancy 9/15
Chemical Pregnancy 6/16
BFP 9/16 EDD 6/3/17
Beta #1: 145 Beta #2: 376 Beta #3: 2,225 Beta #4: 4,548
www.5yearstonever.blogspot.com
How do loans get forgiven? I have never heard of this on student loans or any other type. What type of loans do you have?
Also, it seems very very prejudiced and non-politically correct to charge someone more money on loans just for their family size. Are you sure this is correct? Again, where is this loan through?
Lastly, why don't you try to refinance these student loans with a different organization that won't treat you this way so you can be free to do whatever you want in your personal life?
I do have an education degree even though I'm not in public schools, I teach out of my home. Dang, I need to check into this.
ETA - So it looks like you can if you teach in the low income public schools for at least 5 years
This.
You want to get fake-married so you feel better about having another child, and lie to your kids so they think you're married and doing the right thing, all so you can get out of paying what you owe on a loan. Great morals.
What last name will your future children have? What will you tell your kids if you go by your husband's last name but every legal document (like your driver's license) has a different name. If you only get "married" in the eyes of the church you can't legally change your name. Your "husband" won't be able to visit you in the hospital, you won't be able to do your taxes joint, and all the other legal benefits of getting married. You can get married legally and still file separately, that way your income won't be combined but only one of you can take the education credit, the mortgage credit, the child credit, etc. When I got married, we filed jointly and yes our student loan repayment did go up a lot. When I asked about it the only way to not have my husband's income count toward the repayment of the loan was to file married filing separately. We did the math and realized we save much more in taxes by filing jointly that we pay extra now on the student loans so it wasn't worth it. Even considering that both of our debt will be erased in 10 years (teacher and works for a non-profit, though honestly when it comes to the forgiveness beginning in 2017, they are going to realize the cost and change/amend the bill) In your situation it might be different and it might make more sense to file separately.
But I agree with everyone else, I don't think it's teaching your kids good values to try to screw the system. And I disagree that this is going to come up a lot in the future with student debt, I don't think people will get fake married just to avoid paying their loans back. At least I hope society doesn't go that way. Sure it sucked to see my student loan payments go up that much when we got married but I wouldn't for a moment have decided not to get married because of it. I took on the loans and I love my husband and want him to be my legal husband.
I wasn't even thinking like this- yes, if you are getting fake married to screw the system over- that does not work. If you decide to do that, honestly I hope you get caught and prosecuted for it. People who do things like this to work the system are why we don't have the money we should in social programs to help the people who NEED it. Agreeing with PP- you knew how much the college was going to cost, you went there- pay of your debt!
while I agree it's shady to be looking for ways to sidestep the debts they agreed to pay back, it doesn't actually sound like they're doing anything illegal. If they just weren't interested in getting married, they could live together, make their current payments(household size is based on how you file taxes, and they would both file single of course), and make a baby, then wait for the loans to be forgiven after 10 years. Nothing illegal there, and the only difference between that and what they want to do is a ceremony and some promises.
OP, I'd look into what PP said about filing separately. I'd be surprised if the income-based repayment plans took into account income and family size but had no way of taking into account the number of people in the family with significant student loan debt. This would definitely leave some married couples in huge trouble. Fortunately, it sounds like you may be able to get married and pay your loans as you are now, all legally, and I certainly wouldn't question the morality of a married couple checking whether filing jointly or separately would save them more money. We do it, and MM has recommended it to others. I think you lose a little money on your taxes by doing that, since some credits that are available to both single and joint filers are not available to separate filers, but it sounds like you're interested in setting an example for your kids, so I'd say that cost is worth it.
"You know you're in love when you don't want to fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." - Dr. SeussI can't speak for OP, but I'm fairly certain this is not an option for most people. You can't consolidate loans between people, and for federal loans, anyway, refinancing isn't an option either. H and I looked into personal loans to see if we could get a lower rate on his SLs, and it was a bust. The very lowest personal loan rates are just half a percent or so below the 6.8% we're paying on his loans (I heard more recent loans have even lower rates), there's a %-based fee to take out the loans, and the terms are much shorter. Also, it sounds like they owe over $150k, and the biggest personal loans I've seen have limits of $35k. I could see using a home equity loan, perhaps, but I doubt someone who is on income-based payments has that option.
"You know you're in love when you don't want to fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." - Dr. SeussI don't understand how you would be 'losing' money by making larger payments. Larger payments = paying off the loan faster = paying less interest, no?
ETA: Nvm, I see you're planning on loan forgiveness 10 years down the line. What schools did you go to that you would have $150k still left on the loans in 10 years?
Sure gay people have a choice. They can move to any one of the states that will recognize their marriage, or even just go there for the ceremony. Some choose not to do that, and that doesn't make them "fake married." Their marriages, to me anyway, are just as valid.
If the OP and her fiance are both on an income based repayment plan then I have a feeling that having to pay back all 150k would be financially ruinous to them. To me it's more important to take care of your family than to pay back every cent on principle. But I am saying that as someone who filed bankruptcy a couple years ago for medical bills, so I guess I am OK with screwing the system when it needs to happen. I would not personally bring another child into this situation, but I can totally understand choosing not to have a legal marriage in this situation.
I'm not convinced that your payments would double. I am on the IRB plan and it is based on 10% of your disposable income but it also takes into account family size and spouses school loan payments. So I think that it will end up with close to the same payments. If you don't want your spouses income considered you can file separately (i think), but you give up the interest deduction . I wonder if you could consult with an accountant?
There are a lot of options I would look into before I went to the extreme of not getting married.
I don't think anyone thinks it's illegal, just not in line with the morals that OP stated. It reminds me of my friend's accountant, who told her and her husband to get a divorce (and just not tell friends and family) before her baby was born so that she would be a single mother and therefore pay less taxes. Obviously, she found a new accountant.
Me: 29 DH: 32
HSG all clear!! CD3 b/w normal. SA: good count, high morph
Dec 2012: Clomid+ TI = BFN
Jan 2013: natural cycle =BFN
Feb 2013: natural cycle =BFN
Mar 2013: Clomid+ Trigger + TI + progest =BFN
Apr 2013: Clomid+ Trigger + IUI #1 + progest = BFN
May 2013: Clomid+ Trigger + IUI #2 + progest = BFN
This. As someone who is working hard to pay off the student loans that my husband and I took out, it really annoys me when people skate around the system like this. YOU took the loans out. YOU should re-pay them.
My husband and I chose to get married because we love each other and want to be together. It would be a lot "cheaper" to raise our son if we divorced so that I could, techincally, be a single mother and collect money from the government. Would we ever do that? NO. For two reasons - 1. it's a moral issue. I wouldn't feel right doing that. I chose to have a son. I have a partner who is in the picture to help me raise him. It isn't right of me to do something shady to get help that is meant for other people who actually need it. Sort of the same thing here, YOU chose to take out the loan. You have the means to re-pay those loans. Don't do something shady to get the help that other people need more than you do. Secondly, what is that teaching my child? That being shady and skirting around the system is the way to get through life? I know that a ton of people do it but I don't - and neither will my son.
If you didn't want to re-pay the loan, then you shouldn't have taken it out.
ETA: I just saw that you said it would "financially scary" to get married. You know what else is financially scary? Being an adult. Buying a house. Having a kid. Signing a loan for a new car. Changing jobs. Basically - LIFE in general. I'm sorry to be snarky but this sort of thinking really irritates me. Do I wish that I could just get rid of my loans, of course! But I took them out. I need to be an adult and deal with the consequences of re-paying them. It really annoys me when people think that they don't have to pay them just because their loans are too high. Don't want to deal with high loans? Don't borrow the money.
I completely agree with this. You were a lot less "snarky" that I would have been!
**6.30.12** I have found the one whom my soul loves.
Vikingsfan was hoping they'd be "caught and prosecuted for it." Sounds like someone thinks it's illegal. That was what I was responding to.
"You know you're in love when you don't want to fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." - Dr. SeussThis is what I was thinking. If, in fact, the payments double when they get married, there is something wrong with the system. The fact that they both have loans should be taken into account for income-based repayment - if it's not, I see no problem with putting off marriage to avoid taking on payments they can't afford. In that case, the system isn't working, and they aren't "cheating it." They took on their debt and agreed to repay it based on the terms, which included income-based payments and forgiveness after 10 years.
It does sound like they can get married and keep their payments close to the same, while it might mean filing separately, so the morality of what OP suggested is sort of a moot point. However, the laws allowing income-based repayment and forgiveness were made to help people who can't afford their full payments. They fit that category now as a committed couple, so why shouldn't they continue to fit as a married couple with no change in income or loan amounts, regardless of whether their marriage is official or not? If you have a problem with IRP or forgiveness, call your government representatives to change the law, but these people aren't doing anything that we as taxpayers didn't sign up to help them with.
"You know you're in love when you don't want to fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." - Dr. SeussOops, missed that part. My bad! Sorry!
Me: 29 DH: 32
HSG all clear!! CD3 b/w normal. SA: good count, high morph
Dec 2012: Clomid+ TI = BFN
Jan 2013: natural cycle =BFN
Feb 2013: natural cycle =BFN
Mar 2013: Clomid+ Trigger + TI + progest =BFN
Apr 2013: Clomid+ Trigger + IUI #1 + progest = BFN
May 2013: Clomid+ Trigger + IUI #2 + progest = BFN
woops- hit reply instead of quote-
but yes, people who knowingly cheat the system should get caught. It's called fraud.
Knowingly cheating the system also does not work with OP not wanting her kids to grow up confused about their morals. She needs to look into this more to find out what is legal, and whether or not their payments would actually go up. (As other posters have said- it very well may not). If you believe in paying your debts, pay your debts- sometimes that calls for sacrifice like cutting your lifestyle or working another job.