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Kimbus22 · January 2014

artbyallie said:

While I can agree with some anti-spanking arguments, I get bothered when the person arguing against it starts calling it 'hitting' instead of spanking. That's inflammatory language and indicates to me that the person in question is not willing to listen to alternate opinions. To my mind, it's akin to a pro-life person referring to abortion as murder.

I think referring to abortion as murder is like referring to spanking/hitting/swatting as beating. But spank/hit/swat are all the same thing. Beating is not.

artbyallie · January 2014

But you are making hit the equivalent of beat when you say things like 'if you did it to your spouse you could go to jail for it.'

TattieSoup · January 2014

Call it whatever you want. Hitting/spanking/swatting whatever. It's all using physical punishment. If you did it to your spouse, they could press charges. Just because a kid can't call a lawyer doesn't mean they don't deserve the same respect as your spouse/mother/friend etc

Children don't "deserve the same respect" as competent adults. You can't say that you respect someone and at the same time believe that you should be in charge of their lives. If you respect a child as much as an adult they should be able to choose their own bedtime and meals but good parents make these decisions for them. Children need different treatment from spouses because you can generally trust your spouse not to suddenly stick his fingers in an electrical socket. Yes, spanking people other than children is inappropriate, but so is putting them in time-out or any of the other typical punishments. If you put an adult in a place they don't want to be and force them to stay there, it's kidnapping, and you can go to jail for that too.

Sillygirl45 · January 2014

TattieSoup said:

Call it whatever you want. Hitting/spanking/swatting whatever. It's all using physical punishment. If you did it to your spouse, they could press charges. Just because a kid can't call a lawyer doesn't mean they don't deserve the same respect as your spouse/mother/friend etc

Children don't "deserve the same respect" as competent adults. You can't say that you respect someone and at the same time believe that you should be in charge of their lives. If you respect a child as much as an adult they should be able to choose their own bedtime and meals but good parents make these decisions for them. Children need different treatment from spouses because you can generally trust your spouse not to suddenly stick his fingers in an electrical socket. Yes, spanking people other than children is inappropriate, but so is putting them in time-out or any of the other typical punishments. If you put an adult in a place they don't want to be and force them to stay there, it's kidnapping, and you can go to jail for that too.

I don't know if you have kids or not, but I can tell you if you believe kids don't deserve respect and you need to teach them who's boss by physical intimidation, you're going to have huge problems. That kind of authoritarian parenting works when they are very little. As they get older they become rebellious and angry. No one is going to respect you if you don't respect them...kids included.

The common thread of self destructive people is "no one cares, no one understands, no one listens to me." That is what you risk when you don't respect your kids, listen to them, and allow them to have their own voice. And yes, it starts when they are small.

Respect doesn't mean letting them make all their own decisions and agreeing with every thing. It means they have value and you appreciate that value.

This small child OP is referring to is feeling out of control, small, scared, and angry. They need to deal with the behavior, but more importantly, they need to get to the bottom of why she is feeling this way. I'm pretty sure smacking her back is one of the least constructive things that can be done here.

Sillygirl45 · January 2014

I have to say, I also do understand where you are coming from (@TattieSoup) and 15 years ago, I would have mostly agreed. After watching many kids...raised many different ways and really being able to see how my upbringing affected me, as well as seeing how other kids are affected by theirs, I have completely changed my tune.

I was very well behaved and obedient, and extremely good at hiding my problems. I didn't want to upset anyone or make anyone mad. That led to being very good at hiding risky and self destructive behavior. To this day, my parents have no idea what I was really up to in my teens and twenties.

When I see very well behaved seven year olds having migraines and panic attacks, something isn't right. Their parents may think they are winning because their child is so well behaved and quiet, but in the long run, there is big trouble ahead. Even if they never, ever see it.

Leftie22 · January 2014

Sillygirl45 said:

I have to say, I also do understand where you are coming from (@TattieSoup) and 15 years ago, I would have mostly agreed. After watching many kids...raised many different ways and really being able to see how my upbringing affected me, as well as seeing how other kids are affected by theirs, I have completely changed my tune.

I was very well behaved and obedient, and extremely good at hiding my problems. I didn't want to upset anyone or make anyone mad. That led to being very good at hiding risky and self destructive behavior. To this day, my parents have no idea what I was really up to in my teens and twenties.

When I see very well behaved seven year olds having migraines and panic attacks, something isn't right. Their parents may think they are winning because their child is so well behaved and quiet, but in the long run, there is big trouble ahead. Even if they never, ever see it.

If I could love this post a million times, I would!! I had the weird experience of being raised by one empathetic parent and one authoritative parent. I obeyed my father out of fear (or, appeared to obey him while going behind his back and doing what I wanted.) I was guided by my mom out of attachment, trust and role modeling. It's no surprise that now in my mid-30's, I'm still incredibly close to my mom and can tell her anything, and have at best a polite, almost impersonal relationship with my dad. I know he isn't aware of the damage he caused, but his focus was always on getting a behavior to stop, without questioning why it was happening. For example, he considered it a success that through fear and yelling, he got me to stop getting up at night when I was ten, and coming downstairs to be with my parents. What he didn't know was that I had horrible anxiety, and fears because a childhood friend had just died of cancer, and I thought I was going to die. Instead of getting up, I sat in my room crying and wishing I could talk to them. Instead, i felt even more alone, and never got taught how to deal with my anxiety. So...is that a success? That's why respect and empathy are so important with kids.

Sillygirl45 · January 2014

For example, he considered it a success that through fear and yelling, he got me to stop getting up at night when I was ten, and coming downstairs to be with my parents. What he didn't know was that I had horrible anxiety, and fears because a childhood friend had just died of cancer, and I thought I was going to die. Instead of getting up, I sat in my room crying and wishing I could talk to them. Instead, i felt even more alone, and never got taught how to deal with my anxiety. So...is that a success? That's why respect and empathy are so important with kids.

Oh, Leftie, that brought tears to my eyes.

ClaryPax · January 2014

TattieSoup said:

Kimbus22 said:

Doing this you're showing her that you can't keep your shit together any more than she can when you get fed up. Scientific studies are there to back up the fact that hitting your kid does NOT help the situation and in fact, makes it worse.

It's not about "losing your shit" - if you are going to smack you have to be calm and controlled when you do it, if you smack your kid in a temper you are likely to do it too hard.

Many of the scientific studies on smacking are total nonsense, they don't just look at smacking but included beating with a stick and some of them included really freaky stuff like threatening kids with guns or even burning them. A review of all published studies in 1996 (Larzelere) found only 8 studies that validly examined the effects of mild physical punishment. All eight studies, including four randomised clinical trials, found that nonabusive smacking benefited children when it backed up milder disciplinary tactics with children aged 2 to 6 years.

EDIT: Having said that, I agree with other posters that there are additional issues with smacking other people's kids, I assumed that the OP and her boyfriend would tackle the kids behaviours together so maybe this is one for the boyfriend.

I am anti spanking. My mom managed to raise us just fine without spanking. I don't see it as a benefit at all. I doubt a study said that. I will say that if someone was going to spank then it should be done appropriately not with a belt, not hard etc.

ClaryPax · January 2014

TattieSoup said:

Call it whatever you want. Hitting/spanking/swatting whatever. It's all using physical punishment. If you did it to your spouse, they could press charges. Just because a kid can't call a lawyer doesn't mean they don't deserve the same respect as your spouse/mother/friend etc

Children don't "deserve the same respect" as competent adults. You can't say that you respect someone and at the same time believe that you should be in charge of their lives. If you respect a child as much as an adult they should be able to choose their own bedtime and meals but good parents make these decisions for them. Children need different treatment from spouses because you can generally trust your spouse not to suddenly stick his fingers in an electrical socket. Yes, spanking people other than children is inappropriate, but so is putting them in time-out or any of the other typical punishments. If you put an adult in a place they don't want to be and force them to stay there, it's kidnapping, and you can go to jail for that too.

Actually I think children do deserve the same respect as adults. It is respect for them as an individual. It doesn't mean they raise themselves, just that you treat them as their own person rather than someone who doesn't matter. I think respecting your children also means being a good parent and setting good enforceable boundaries and keep sticking to those guidelines so they child feels safe because the parent is in charge. I don't know if that sounds contradictory, but there is a respect that you have for a person regardless of their age that has nothing to do with their abilities.

Kimbus22 · January 2014

artbyallie said:

But you are making hit the equivalent of beat when you say things like 'if you did it to your spouse you could go to jail for it.'

Right. Because if I smacked my H, he could call the cops and press charges.

Kimbus22 · January 2014

TattieSoup said:

Call it whatever you want. Hitting/spanking/swatting whatever. It's all using physical punishment. If you did it to your spouse, they could press charges. Just because a kid can't call a lawyer doesn't mean they don't deserve the same respect as your spouse/mother/friend etc

Children don't "deserve the same respect" as competent adults. You can't say that you respect someone and at the same time believe that you should be in charge of their lives. If you respect a child as much as an adult they should be able to choose their own bedtime and meals but good parents make these decisions for them. Children need different treatment from spouses because you can generally trust your spouse not to suddenly stick his fingers in an electrical socket. Yes, spanking people other than children is inappropriate, but so is putting them in time-out or any of the other typical punishments. If you put an adult in a place they don't want to be and force them to stay there, it's kidnapping, and you can go to jail for that too.

I think children deserve a basic level of respect granted to all humans. I don't think getting to choose your own bedtime and getting to feel safe in your body because no one is going to smack you is even remotely on the same level. You keep children contained to keep them safe because they are unable to judge situations appropriately. Adults are able to safeguard their own well being. Therefore other people are not needed to provide those boundaries for them. So no, obviously children do not have the same decision making rights as adults. But they do have a right to their own body and to have that right taken away from them by the people they trust most in the world makes me so unbelievably angry at the parents and sad for the children.

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