Obama takes executive steps in SL's

vlagrl29 · June 2014

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-executive-steps-student-loans-233611442--politics.html

I don't know if anyone saw this yesterday on Yahoo. I thought I would post it. I do find it interesting. I didn't even know this kind of thing was already going on. What are your thoughts?

Xstatic3333 · June 2014

I think it's a good program for those seriously in trouble-as long as they put money aside for the tax bill. It's a way for those who ended up way over their heads to still get to live their lives. I'm more excited about the potential to refinance at lower rates, which would save me a couple of thousand. One of my senators is working on a bill for refinancing, but I doubt it will pass Congress.

I'm actually thinking of revisiting public service loan forgiveness now that it looks like I could be at my job long term. I don't stand to have too much forgiven, but since I'm focusing on my retirement instead of a quick SL payoff anyway I think it could make sense in my case.

hoffse · June 2014

Honestly, I think it's appalling. It also doesn't fix the problem - which is the cost of college vs. earnings - not debt. Frankly, I think a more responsible thing to do would be to cap borrowing so that students simply can't afford to go to really expensive schools when it's entirely financed. Then schools might need to re-evaluate how much they are charging. We all know the reason college is so expensive is because basically anybody can get a loan to attend.

hoffse · June 2014

Yeah the tax bill is another big thing. I would bet that at least 90% of people using IBR have no idea that debt forgiveness is reportable as ordinary income, all at once, in the year in which it is forgiven.

Of course it can be great for people who plan ahead... but most people who spend their lives financially planning can also figure out a way to handle the debt they do have.

vlagrl29 · June 2014

@xstatic - I wish I could get loan forgiveness. I think college costs are outrageous and there should also be a cap on borrowing.

vlagrl29 · June 2014

hoffse said:

Yeah the tax bill is another big thing. I would bet that at least 90% of people using IBR have no idea that debt forgiveness is reportable as ordinary income, all at once, in the year in which it is forgiven.

Of course it can be great for people who plan ahead... but most people who spend their lives financially planning can also figure out a way to handle the debt they do have.

I wasn't aware of the tax bill either.

brij2006 · June 2014

My thoughts? How would only forcing people to pay 10% of their income toward their student loans, help them in the long run? I understand it would help in the short term with people being able to budget for the payment, but many people would never get them paid off. The interest would compound while they are barely paying enough to cover it each month.

Sorry, but I could see this being not so great for many.

brij2006 · June 2014

hoffse said:

Yeah the tax bill is another big thing. I would bet that at least 90% of people using IBR have no idea that debt forgiveness is reportable as ordinary income, all at once, in the year in which it is forgiven.

Of course it can be great for people who plan ahead... but most people who spend their lives financially planning can also figure out a way to handle the debt they do have.

Exactly! There is so much more to IBR and loan forgiveness than just, "I can afford this monthly payment" or "I will take the lowest payment possible because it will be forgiven after 10 years."

vlagrl29 · June 2014

brij2006 said:
My thoughts? How would only forcing people to pay 10% of their income toward their student loans, help them in the long run? I understand it would help in the short term with people being able to budget for the payment, but many people would never get them paid off. The interest would compound while they are barely paying enough to cover it each month.
Sorry, but I could see this being not so great for many.

I was thinking the same thing too but then I was wondering if maybe all they owe is 10% of income and the rest is forgiven?

brij2006 · June 2014

vlagrl29 said:

My thoughts? How would only forcing people to pay 10% of their income toward their student loans, help them in the long run? I understand it would help in the short term with people being able to budget for the payment, but many people would never get them paid off. The interest would compound while they are barely paying enough to cover it each month.
Sorry, but I could see this being not so great for many.
I was thinking the same thing too but then I was wondering if maybe all they owe is 10% of income and the rest is forgiven?

Highly doubt it. The problem with that is it still isn't going to help the insane amounts of debt college students graduate with. They will just go to a more expensive school because they know that no matter what they make they will only have to pay 10% of their income toward them, and in the end it will be washed away.

Who eats that wash though? Likely the lenders, because of a government program. Then those lenders will charge higher interest rates to the ones who get the loans and pay them off at more than the 10% rate.

I'm with hoffse that there should be a cap on how much student loans you can take out. Unfortunately there are so many people out there who go to school and just get a loan for it. Then they aren't sure what they want to do or realize that what their degree was in won't make them any money, and they go back to school while taking out more student loans to do so. At some point there needs to be a cap.

CuriousKiddosMama · June 2014

I think the cap on student loans could be a great thing, along with debt counseling at those schools to help students understand how this is going to impact their lives later on. This thing by Obama and the congress- not so great because it doesn't address the real problem- which like people said previously is the cost of college. With the cap- if you can't afford the school, then you don't get to go. Either that or work to pay the rest of the school as you go/ or get some more scholarships.
I just think the amount of student loans some people take on is insane. I have a friend who is a lawyer and took out 100k+ in loans- now she's wishing she could buy a house, but can't afford it. She lived on her loans for several semesters, which is why then ended up being so high, and that is a choice she made. During the same time I got a masters (a lot cheaper than law school- I completely understand this) but she would say stupid things sometimes as I cash-flowed it and couldn't afford to go out with her. Sorry, I got off on a tangent, but the living off student loans things seems to happen a lot more today and is just so irresponsible.

brij2006 · June 2014

Vikingsfan 71713 said:

Sorry, I got off on a tangent, but the living off student loans things seems to happen a lot more today and is just so irresponsible.

This exactly. I paid for college myself with student loans, and the campus I chose did not have dorms. So you had to live in an apartment. The school even said to me, "we can wrap the rent and utilities into your student loans." Um yes, I could. Or I could get a job and work through school and have $20k less in student loans to pay back just so I could live near the campus.

So many people do this, and it's gotten sickening. I really wish there was a way to get people to realize that this debt will affect your life. There are many people putting off getting married, or having children, or making dramatic life changes, because of the student loan debt looming over their heads.

Something does need done about it, but unfortunately this idea from Obama and congress just isn't the answer.

vlagrl29 · June 2014

I'm so glad I didn't live on my loans. I chose to stay with my parents and commute every day for 5 years to school. I remember hearing the same thing as well - you can put it all on your loans. Gosh, I can't even imagine how much debt I would be in if I did that. I think kids need to be educated about these things. I remember when I was 18, my mind really didn't know much about the loan process. All I knew is my parents wouldn't co-sign, so thank god I didn't need a cosigner.

vlagrl29 · June 2014

Also, this will be paid for by closing loopholes for millionaires which I'm totally ok with

jjbmstinco · June 2014

I read that article and still had trouble understanding what it really would do. I am not sure what would help at this point, but I know what it is like to have SL looming over your head.

I have $45,000 in debt, and my husband has $55,000. Neither of us lived on our SL for living costs. We both worked 2 jobs to pay for those. I even got my M.S. paid for by a graduate assistantship and I still have that debt. We went to a middle of the road state school. Our SL payments are crazy.

I wish something would be done.

Xstatic3333 · June 2014

hoffse said:
Honestly, I think it's appalling.

It also doesn't fix the problem - which is the cost of college vs. earnings - not debt.

Frankly, I think a more responsible thing to do would be to cap borrowing so that students simply can't afford to go to really expensive schools when it's entirely financed. Then schools might need to re-evaluate how much they are charging.

We all know the reason college is so expensive is because basically anybody can get a loan to attend.

I do agree that there should be a loan cap too. I think the problem with a lot of recent graduates is that they borrowed a ridiculous amount without having much prior knowledge about what it really meant. It is very symptomatic of the larger lack of financial knowledge in this country. I have what I consider a very manageable loan debt, but I know people who ended up with the same degree as me who have over $200,000 in debt. Seriously.

In general I think the average person should be, and is, able to pay down their loan in 10 years. I look at these forgiveness (I think after 25 years for IBR or PAYE) programs as a way for people who really screwed up to salvage their lives and credit a little bit. Moving forward for the next generations, I'm with you on the total overhaul.

Wulfgar · June 2014

What is really funny about Obama's Executive Order is that it only speeds up the time that people can do this from July 2014 to tomorrow. Less than a month early.

My thoughts is no more than 1 1/2 times the starting salary for the average jobs in the field you are studying. This would put most people into a more reasonable position and repayment program.

I have a coworker that took out 100k in student loans to get his engineering degree and if I am correct he is in school working on his MBA.

I do believe that we need to make major changes to our University system where work is part of the schooling so people don't have to put their total college on student loans. I remember a lot of the youngsters not worrying about the insane amount of money they were spending since they didn't have to repay it yet. I was a non-traditional student that was very careful about taking out student loans. My senior year was the worse since I had made too much as a co-op and couldn't get any grants.

BlueBirdMB · June 2014

I agree with a great deal of you. This contributes to the problem.

Here's the reason why college is so freakin expensive:

There is a huge demand for college. Because the government gives huge loans, there is a huge supply of people willing to pay for college. Colleges can simply raise prices as much as the government is willing to give loans. As a result, college prices are insane and will only continue to be a higher and higher percentage of average income as time goes on.

There is only one way this can be fixed. We must stop giving loans. When that happens, there will be some bad times, but colleges won't have any students. They will be forced to lower prices to accommodate enough people to make money.

That's never going to happen. It's going to progress to the point that the entire bubble will burst which will be devastating to our entire economy.

brij2006 · June 2014

AprilH81 said:

Oh, and another thing that we as a country need to wrap our heads around. Not everyone should go to college. It sounds horrible on the surface, but not everyone is suited for higher education and/or corporate jobs.

We still need plumbers, electricians, contractors, construction workers and people who know how to build stuff. You don't need a four year degree for these jobs (although a business degree wouldn't hurt, especially if you want to own your own business). Skilled workers in these areas can make very good money and without the crippling student loan debt that can come with a job that brings in $50k a year.

This is so very true. We live in a LCOL area, but H has a bachelors in business management he paid $60k for. He works in a factory and makes more money than he would using his degree.

So many High Schools now prepare you for college, not the workforce or trade school. It's becoming a dying breed, which in turn is making the skilled labor jobs be higher paying than one that requires a degree.

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2014

I just spent the weekend at my Alma Mater... which I love, and despite my fairly substantial SLs I wouldn't go anywhere else. That said, I majored in something useful, defined a career path for myself, and figured out how to get the majority of my graduate degree covered by my employer. My Alma Mater frequently falls at the top of the most expensive colleges list, to be fair they are also one of the only schools that has a comprehensive fee (room and board and all other fees get lumped in with tuition) so their comprehensive fee is stacked againsed most other schools tuition alone.

I was a little sad when listening to the current college president speak that their goals going forward don't involve lowering the cost of attendance (they do plan to focus on managing rising costs and increasing scholarship)...but she made a good point...the college has the responsibility for housing, feeding, and educating the student body for 9-10 months a year...and to do that well is not cheap. Families now expect high quality, uncrowded living (gone are the days of cramming 4 freshmen in a room). Is it also that expectations of colleges are becoming unreasonable?

Also, the point about majoring in something useful, SO TRUE! it is one thing to take out a bunch of loans to major in something with promising career potential. but majoring in something where job prospects are not great and financing hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that, there should be some controls on the system.

Xstatic3333 · June 2014

I think expectations are very unreasonable. At the risk of TMI, I went to BU for my undergrad. They always gave a lot of great scholarships (that's why I went there!) but also had a fair amount of wealthy students attending full cost and middle class students loaning it up.

Though I'm grateful for my scholarship and would love to give back, I'm hesitant to make any donations because as tuition skyrockets, all their money seems to go to upgrading the gym and ridiculous dorms that me and most of my friends could never afford (different dorms have different costs at BU). The whole thing just makes me feel bloated to look at. It's a great school, but so is the public college where I got my grad degree. If you pay full price, it's just to have fun in Boston. Not worth borrowing for!

ETA oops! Forgot to quote Gdaisy.

BlueBirdMB · June 2014

Gdaisy09 said:

I just spent the weekend at my Alma Mater... which I love, and despite my fairly substantial SLs I wouldn't go anywhere else. That said, I majored in something useful, defined a career path for myself, and figured out how to get the majority of my graduate degree covered by my employer. My Alma Mater frequently falls at the top of the most expensive colleges list, to be fair they are also one of the only schools that has a comprehensive fee (room and board and all other fees get lumped in with tuition) so their comprehensive fee is stacked againsed most other schools tuition alone.

I was a little sad when listening to the current college president speak that their goals going forward don't involve lowering the cost of attendance (they do plan to focus on managing rising costs and increasing scholarship)...but she made a good point...the college has the responsibility for housing, feeding, and educating the student body for 9-10 months a year...and to do that well is not cheap. Families now expect high quality, uncrowded living (gone are the days of cramming 4 freshmen in a room). Is it also that expectations of colleges are becoming unreasonable?

Also, the point about majoring in something useful, SO TRUE! it is one thing to take out a bunch of loans to major in something with promising career potential. but majoring in something where job prospects are not great and financing hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that, there should be some controls on the system.

Colleges and universities waste an ABSURD amount of money. ABSURD. My aunt and uncle teach at an Ivy League. They are partiers and throw parties at their house all the time. If they invite 1 person from their department, the university pays for the whole party. My aunt has a deal that she only has to teach 4 classes a year. She teaches them all in one semester and has the rest of the year off without even a pretense of sabbatical. And sabbatical… what a joke that is- at least for my aunt and uncle. They always talk about how "difficult" it is to focus and get anything done. The rest of us have to "focus" or we lose our jobs. But most jobs don't have tenure! They go on sabbatical every two years. Technically, they are suppose to be researching and writing books on sabbatical. At least my aunt has only written a handful of books since her PhD 30 years ago.

You can see, there's a lot of wasted money. And if people weren't given crazy amounts of money in loans, they would be happy with smaller, less elaborate living quarters. I went to the best school by far in my field. We had shitty dorms. Nobody cared because it was such an amazing school.

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2014

BlueBirdMB said:

Gdaisy09 said:

I just spent the weekend at my Alma Mater... which I love, and despite my fairly substantial SLs I wouldn't go anywhere else. That said, I majored in something useful, defined a career path for myself, and figured out how to get the majority of my graduate degree covered by my employer. My Alma Mater frequently falls at the top of the most expensive colleges list, to be fair they are also one of the only schools that has a comprehensive fee (room and board and all other fees get lumped in with tuition) so their comprehensive fee is stacked againsed most other schools tuition alone.

I was a little sad when listening to the current college president speak that their goals going forward don't involve lowering the cost of attendance (they do plan to focus on managing rising costs and increasing scholarship)...but she made a good point...the college has the responsibility for housing, feeding, and educating the student body for 9-10 months a year...and to do that well is not cheap. Families now expect high quality, uncrowded living (gone are the days of cramming 4 freshmen in a room). Is it also that expectations of colleges are becoming unreasonable?

Also, the point about majoring in something useful, SO TRUE! it is one thing to take out a bunch of loans to major in something with promising career potential. but majoring in something where job prospects are not great and financing hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that, there should be some controls on the system.

Colleges and universities waste an ABSURD amount of money. ABSURD. My aunt and uncle teach at an Ivy League. They are partiers and throw parties at their house all the time. If they invite 1 person from their department, the university pays for the whole party. My aunt has a deal that she only has to teach 4 classes a year. She teaches them all in one semester and has the rest of the year off without even a pretense of sabbatical. And sabbatical… what a joke that is- at least for my aunt and uncle. They always talk about how "difficult" it is to focus and get anything done. The rest of us have to "focus" or we lose our jobs. But most jobs don't have tenure! They go on sabbatical every two years. Technically, they are suppose to be researching and writing books on sabbatical. At least my aunt has only written a handful of books since her PhD 30 years ago.

You can see, there's a lot of wasted money. And if people weren't given crazy amounts of money in loans, they would be happy with smaller, less elaborate living quarters. I went to the best school by far in my field. We had shitty dorms. Nobody cared because it was such an amazing school.

I wasn't saying this was my opinion, I was saying that these are the beliefs of the colleges.

as far as sabatical goes, if you're smart enough to become a tenured professer and as dedicated as the professors I had the joy of interacting with, I see nothing wrong with the institution you work for providing you with sabatical, so long as that time is used to do research that would enrich the education of students. as far as my Alma Mater is concerned it's professors are underpaid in their field, at least compared to the average salaries of professors in other small liberal arts colleges. not saing it's perfect...nothing is...

I have to believe that colleges have done research before investing millions in these dormatories. On the flip side of things I've looked into the finances of the Ivy league college I work for, they could pay all their bills, employees, etc. for 7 years without another dime coming in the door...yet a year of tuition in the masters program I just completed is $60K++. that makes me angry, and I hope it makes the students who just took out $80K in loans to cover tuition and living expenses even angrier, granted it was their choice to come here.

vlagrl29 · June 2014

Yes I agree that if you don't need a 4 year college degree to do what you love, you shouldn't get it. I'm so thankful I went to school and got the degrees I have now. Music is something I couldn't live without and I'm making money at something I love doing.

mana8503 · June 2014

AprilH81 said:
Oh, and another thing that we as a country need to wrap our heads around. Not everyone should go to college. It sounds horrible on the surface, but not everyone is suited for higher education and/or corporate jobs.

We still need plumbers, electricians, contractors, construction workers and people who know how to build stuff. You don't need a four year degree for these jobs (although a business degree wouldn't hurt, especially if you want to own your own business). Skilled workers in these areas can make very good money and without the crippling student loan debt that can come with a job that brings in $50k a year.

I bring this up everytime someone uses "college is expected" excuse for their kids. My H is a truck driver. He's not dumb, or slow... He's just not a sit at a desk person. He's good at what he does and eventually wants to start a trucking business. He did 10 years in the army so he could go to college for free but it's just not for him. He makes more than most college graduates I know.

I went to a state school, 4 years, had about 30k in loans. They will be paid off next month, 7 years after graduation. That's after not really paying more towards them for 5 of those 7.

We talked and as long as our kids are contributing to society we don't care what they do... College, trade school, whatever.

hoffse · June 2014

AprilH81 said:

mana8503 said:

Oh, and another thing that we as a country need to wrap our heads around. Not everyone should go to college. It sounds horrible on the surface, but not everyone is suited for higher education and/or corporate jobs.

We still need plumbers, electricians, contractors, construction workers and people who know how to build stuff. You don't need a four year degree for these jobs (although a business degree wouldn't hurt, especially if you want to own your own business). Skilled workers in these areas can make very good money and without the crippling student loan debt that can come with a job that brings in $50k a year.
I bring this up everytime someone uses "college is expected" excuse for their kids. My H is a truck driver. He's not dumb, or slow... He's just not a sit at a desk person. He's good at what he does and eventually wants to start a trucking business. He did 10 years in the army so he could go to college for free but it's just not for him. He makes more than most college graduates I know. I went to a state school, 4 years, had about 30k in loans. They will be paid off next month, 7 years after graduation. That's after not really paying more towards them for 5 of those 7. We talked and as long as our kids are contributing to society we don't care what they do... College, trade school, whatever.

DH and I want our kids to attend college (no kids yet, not even TTC) but if they show an aptitude for mechanics or something outside of book learning we will not force them to attend.

I want to find the right balance of "you are expected to do SOMETHING productive with your life" and set expectations that higher education is required (trade school included).

Growing up so many of my classmates thought they were "done" after high school. Most of them are on welfare or working part time at a retail job because they aren't qualified to do anything else. My kids WILL be productive members of society some day dammit.

Yeah I think this is what many people who say that "college is expected" really mean. H and I say this all the time. But I mean - we are both very musically inclined. If we pass that onto kids, and they can get into a conservatory, then we would love for them to go to conservatory rather than a regular college, because that's phenomenal. We consider that highly productive, even though it's really a training program.

I think the "college is expected" phrase is a way to fight against the ultra-passive parenting style that results in children turning into adults who are a drain on society.

I also think that people expect college to result in a whole host of things that it's not designed to do. A liberal arts college is not designed to drop a job in your lap at graduation. It's not intended to direct you toward one career path or another. That's what a trade school or professional school is for. Students who attend a liberal arts college really should expect to graduate with the ability to be thoughtful human beings who are able to think critically, identify bias, consider conflicting sources of information, draw connections from different fields of study, and then come to a reasoned conclusion. Nothing more, nothing less. College =/= Desk job in 4 years.

I think that there is a misunderstanding of the distinction between college and trade programs. There's nothing at all wrong with a trade program. Heck, every lawyer and doctor in this country had to go through one to get licensed. Many business executives went through one too. Police officers, firefighters, etc. all attend trade programs. So do engineers, architects, computer programmers, etc. But going to college and majoring in history never was meant to aim you toward some particular job.

blondie42107 · June 2014

I went to 2 State Universities - 2 years at each. I did college on my own. I worked on campus through a student aid program all four years and worked another job off campus all four years. I lived in an apartment with roommates. Bought my own groceries, paid my own bills, etc. After scholarships/grants, etc my student loans totaled $12,000. I still had a great college experience.

I am completely fine paying for this. I planned ahead and knew I'd have to pay it back.

mana8503 · June 2014

@hoffse‌ - I do think that's what most of them mean. Especially when 529s come into discussion and they say "well they go to college and use the money or we give it to another kid". Which is their right to do, but I don't believe it's right when they helped fund it with the kids birthday money etc.

You can see what a kids talents are and help direct them to be productive citizens whether it's college, trade school, military, whatever. That's parenting.

MommyLiberty5013 · June 2014

mana8503 said:

Oh, and another thing that we as a country need to wrap our heads around. Not everyone should go to college. It sounds horrible on the surface, but not everyone is suited for higher education and/or corporate jobs.

We still need plumbers, electricians, contractors, construction workers and people who know how to build stuff. You don't need a four year degree for these jobs (although a business degree wouldn't hurt, especially if you want to own your own business). Skilled workers in these areas can make very good money and without the crippling student loan debt that can come with a job that brings in $50k a year.
I bring this up everytime someone uses "college is expected" excuse for their kids. My H is a truck driver. He's not dumb, or slow... He's just not a sit at a desk person. He's good at what he does and eventually wants to start a trucking business. He did 10 years in the army so he could go to college for free but it's just not for him. He makes more than most college graduates I know. I went to a state school, 4 years, had about 30k in loans. They will be paid off next month, 7 years after graduation. That's after not really paying more towards them for 5 of those 7. We talked and as long as our kids are contributing to society we don't care what they do... College, trade school, whatever.

My ILs are a farmer and a non-profit ministry starter/worker. Neither have college educations and they are two of the smartest, most well-rounded, well-read people I know.

There was a time in our nation when college was for 3 things...to be lawyer, a doctor, or a pastor. Everybody else went into some kind of trade. I realize the nation has changed so much since then that we need college for more than the three careers I just mentioned; however, not everyone should or needs to go to college. In fact, with so many people going this route, the Bachelor's is the new high school diploma and the Master's is like the new Bachelor's degree. Now, we just have perpetual students....

My FIL recently saw a job ad in his area of Iowa for a construction equipment driver. Starting pay was $80k. GL getting that with a bachelor's right out of the gate.

Anyway, DH and I are fine with whatever out kids want to do as long as they bring honor to God and to the family. IMHO, a job is just a small part of a person's life - it pays the bills. I don't want to teach my kids to get their identities from their jobs.

Wulfgar · June 2014

I was listening to Dave Ramsey on Pod Cast. Someone called in with $275,000 in student loans between her and her husband. She got hers in economics and he got his in criminal justice. She then had the nerve to say that someone told her that student loans were good debt no matter what.

I am sorry, student loans are only a good debt if you manage them so that you can pay them back without causing a large loss of lifestyle. It is like buying a house, you can either buy one that makes you house poor or you can buy one that is affordable.

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2014

While I agree that not everyone has to go to college, I also believe that anyone who doesn't show some apptetude in a field that doesn't require college should go to college.

For example, my H, he is not mechanically inclined at all (love him to dealth, but he can't even fix the loose handle on the kitchen sink), he has no interest in nursing, no skills in the arts, basically no interest or skills in anything trade school has to offer. He went to college, with a very low understanding of the student loan system, and ended-up not finishing both due to financial reasons and his mother was on medication so she couldn't drive, so he came home from school to drive her to her medical appointments. He never finished his degree.

now he has spent the last 5 years working a variety of part-time jobs (10 different jobs in the last 5 years). most places he work for love him, but can't move him up to a higher or full-time position becasue a the companies require a bachelor's degree. whenever he's been Job searching he cannot get his resume looked at for anything because he can't check the $%^* box indecating he has a bachelor's degree, so the electronic application system sorts him out because he doesn't have the minimum level of education, despite having more than enough related experience to qualify him to do the job.

A bachelor's degree has become the new high school diploma as far as many jobs are concerned, in our area, if you want to make a livable wage without having to work multiple part time jobs, you need to be qualified in a skilled trade OR have a bachelor's degree.

there are many ways to get a bachelor's degree, traditional college isn't necessary. But having seen how much not having that degree has harmed my H's happiness I would definitely push my children to go to college and finish a degree, unless they were highly skilled in another field.

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