Stressful Monday

blondie42107 · June 2015

Today was great until H got the mail. We are so stressed. Our "newish" neighbors sent us a letter wanting to peaceful end a concern about the property line. They have never said anything to us previously. They included a copy of the online satellite map (which says it cannot ensure accuracy) and a copy of an assessment from 1990. We've lived on our current property three years longer than the neighbors. They basically said our side flower bed and fence are on their property.

Edit: everything was preexisting - we have not made any changes since we bought the house.

Then we got a letter from our home owners insurance that we have a tree that poses a risk to our home so unless we do something, our insurance will be cancelled. Its our neighbors tree - other side, great people - so hopefully it won't be a problem.

I want to cry!

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

Ugh, how frustrating! I know you'll probably need to talk to a professional (a lawyer? real estate agent? surveyor?) but ask about whether you might have something called a "prescriptive easement" for your fence and flower bed. This means that if a property owner is allowed to use property in a certain way for long enough (10 years is the cutoff in some states) then it can continue to be used in the same way. This is not legal advice-because I'm not a lawyer! I have encountered the term frequently at work, however, and think it's worth looking into. My other work-related comment is that we need to impose plat maps over satellite imagery all the time, and at least in our state inaccuracies are very common. It's most noticeable when something like a lake ends up in a slightly different spot on the two map "layers."

Also, your neighbors are jerks for not just talking to you about it first.

As for the tree, that just sucks. Hopefully you and your neighbor can go in together on having an arborist take down the threatening branches. We have a tree that I'm pretty sure will lead to the same issue soon.

blondie42107 · June 2015

H is calling the City tomorrow to discuss the property lines. We are not going to talk/discuss with the neighbors. We will discuss with the City first. The previous owner put in our fence (I think the fence was put in 3ish years before we bought.) Current city ordinance says fence has to be 1ft inside our property line. This is how we've always understood our property line to be. The previous neighbors seemed to agree. I'm sure the city would have a copy of the permit info on file. I also don't think we've had any changes to city ordinances in that time frame.

The GIS map makes me laugh... One neighbor down the street, the "line" runs right on their roof line...

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

blondie42107 said:

H is calling the City tomorrow to discuss the property lines. We are not going to talk/discuss with the neighbors. We will discuss with the City first. The previous owner put in our fence (I think the fence was put in 3ish years before we built.) Current city ordinance says fence has to be 1ft inside our property line. This is how we've always understood our property line to be. The previous neighbors seemed to agree. I'm sure the city would have a copy of the permit info on file. I also don't think we've had any changes to city ordinances in that time frame. The GIS map makes me laugh... One neighbor down the street, the "line" runs right on their roof line...

Nice! If there's a permit on file you should be in great shape. I didn't even know you need permits for fences-good to know I should look into it if we ever do our fencing project.

Yes, some GIS maps are definitely hilarious! In RI it really varies by town. Some towns don't even have plat maps digitized at all yet (and I've spent quality time "tracing" them into GIS with my cursor), but even in the towns that do it's no substitute for an actual land surveyor (which I think your neighbors should be paying for since they are the ones with the issue). Man, as a newish person in my neighborhood as well I can't imagine going to this trouble over a few feet! If it was an issue I would have dealt with it before I bought the property.

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2015

That is really terrible that the neighbors didn't approach you first.

If getting the permit etc. from the town doesn't appease them, I'd tell them they're welcome to hire a surveyor to assess the lines (assuming everything looks good with the permit). a basic property survey could cost them a few thousand dollars, that might make them think twice about pushing the issue. My uncle is a surveyor and gifted us a survey of our property as a wedding gift, we have a small lot (0.13 acres) and he said it was a $2500K job, if he were going to charge us for it. some of those charges were for records searches, and notifying abutters of when he would be doing the survey, the rest was for his time and for a nice folder containing his map and all the records he pulled.

Good luck with the tree, we're taking down a big elm on our neighbor's property that's a hazard to our home, I think the cost is about $600 (there's another tree on our property that's also coming down..total cost was $1250). the wood is ours to keep...I'm guessing we can probably split it (or not split it) and sell it as unseasoned fire wood.

blondie42107 · June 2015

Thanks for the support. The neighbors don't really fit in with our neighborhood. We have always been polite/nice and actually have never had a conversation with them. So no real opportunity to be mean to them. We never speak badly about them when the other neighbors complain.

I think I'm just surprised the previous owner of our neighbors property never had an issue with the fence, etc. From our understanding, their previous owner and our previous owner weren't buddies.

H and I are hoping this is resolved easily and quickly however my lack of sleep has me thinking the worst...

Erikan73 · June 2015

Smart move to contact the city building department to see what is one file and what they have one file. Also they can tell you what the steps are when neighbors are disputing a property line. I'm sure they have dealt with a few cases in their time.

als1982 · June 2015

I don't have any additional advice to add, only wanted to wish you a speedy resolution and minimal hard feelings. What a crappy situation!!

smerka · June 2015

I am pretty sure the only thing that will settle this is an official survey. In my state it is standard practice to have one done during the sale of a house. I would look through your closing paperwork to see if there is one in there.

vlagrl29 · June 2015

Hope it all turns out ok! we have a field behind us that is a land developers property. There was this HUGE tree that was starting to rot and I was always afraid it would fall down on our house especially once I became pregnant and knew our baby would be upstairs. I contacted the developers and they scheduled to have it taken down for me and we didn't have to pay any money. That was easier than I thought it would be.

MommyLiberty5013 · June 2015

The online assessment is crud. Those probably aren't very accurate. I too have seen some "property lines" drawn on those from space that are WAY off.

I agree with talking to the city. Also, try looking up your city and/or county's property assessment website. Many/most keep plat records online, which list the EXACT dimensions of lots and zoning areas.

Also, look through any documents the prior owners left you and see if there is any documentation regarding the fence installation. You may be able to contact the company who put it in, if it wasn't a DIY project. Perhaps they keep records too of work permits.

Furthermore, the cost of "proof" should be on the people presenting you with this error. So if they want to have a surveyor come out, then they need to pay.

IF the neighbors are correct and your fence is on their land, then that's another issue. Cross that bridge when/if you come to it. First just focus on determining where that property line is.

Regarding your homeowner's insurance, that's crappy! How do they know about this tree? Did they spy on you? I have never, ever heard about something like this: home owner's companies cancelling policies due to trees on non-customers' land.

I would call them and play dumb, "I got this notice. This is what it said. Why did I get this?" See what they say. If they say that the tree is a danger then ask them if they had a certified arborist look at it. If not, how can they make that determination if they aren't tree experts?

Next, I would honestly look into another home owner's company.

blondie42107 · June 2015

I think it's pretty normal for insurance companies to review property. Growing up I recall my parents getting a letter stating they needed steps where are patio door was leading to the backyard. Its about three to four foot drop.

The one tree that belongs to our neighbors (nice people!) the branches are touching our garage roof and power lines run through there as well. I don't think our neighbors will give us a hard time. We have 45 ish days, I think, to address the concern.

I know they did a walk around our property before we purchased to measure large windows, patio/deck, pool, etc to make sure replacement costs would be appropriate.

blondie42107 · June 2015

I know this is something we need to figure out ourselves but I really appreciate the suggestions and support!

short+sassy · June 2015

I know my insurance company sent me a letter asking about a dog they saw in my yard. Granted, it was shortly after I got the insurance, but I also don't think it is that unusual for insurance companies to occasionally check insured properties.

I was annoyed by their letter, because it had a bit of a nasty tone, and I had fully disclosed when I got the insurance that I had a dog. The letter instructed me to send a pic of my dog and I also had to answer a number of questions about her. With the exception of the pic, ALL the questions they asked had already been answered in my application. Whatever!

GL with everything @blondie42107. I know it is stressful to all of a sudden have this stuff coming up, but I'm sure everything will turn out fine with both the neighbors and the insurance...other than you will probably have to get that tree taken down.

From what I understand, the other PPs are correct. Either your neighbors will need to order an expensive survey to prove where the property line is...making it a bit more unlikely they won't...and, even if they are right, you might still prevail due to the "prescriptive easement" that @Xstatic3333 mentioned.

brij2006 · June 2015

Hope the property issue is easily taken care of with a phone call to the city. Our neighbors tried this with our fence (both previous owners agreed to it, and we did not put it up). We asked the city for what we could use to go back to them, and how we can make sure this was not on their property. The city sent us paperwork outlining what they had on file for the install of the fence, along with our property layout. The neighbors did not believe it, so they paid for a surveyor to come out. Come to find out, our property goes 3 feet past the fence, cutting into their side and back yard. It's now more for us to mow, but I couldn't help but laugh when their peskyness turned into them having less property.

As far as the tree with the insurance company, that is very normal and usual. They have someone come out and inspect the property to see if there are any potential hazards. It's just a way of keeping losses lower, by being proactive about possible claims.

If you want to get technical, if that tree fell onto your house, that would go under your home insurance. Even though it's the neighbors' tree. That's why the insurance is requesting that you have it taken care of. If your neighbors are nice, then I would definitely talk to them about it. We actually have a tree that hangs over our garage, but it's technically on the citys' property. It is our responsibility to keep it trimmed and out of the way. We have someone come every other year to trim it back away from the garage and power lines. It helps keep the tree healthy, and us have less potential of branches falling and taking out our power line or damaging our roof.

short+sassy · June 2015

@brij2006, don't you just love karma!

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

short+sassy said:
I know my insurance company sent me a letter asking about a dog they saw in my yard. Granted, it was shortly after I got the insurance, but I also don't think it is that unusual for insurance companies to occasionally check insured properties.
I was annoyed by their letter, because it had a bit of a nasty tone, and I had fully disclosed when I got the insurance that I had a dog. The letter instructed me to send a pic of my dog and I also had to answer a number of questions about her. With the exception of the pic, ALL the questions they asked had already been answered in my application. Whatever!
GL with everything @blondie42107. I know it is stressful to all of a sudden have this stuff coming up, but I'm sure everything will turn out fine with both the neighbors and the insurance...other than you will probably have to get that tree taken down.
From what I understand, the other PPs are correct. Either your neighbors will need to order an expensive survey to prove where the property line is...making it a bit more unlikely they won't...and, even if they are right, you might still prevail due to the "prescriptive easement" that @Xstatic3333 mentioned.

Uh oh, off topic but this got me thinking, should we have notified our insurance company that we got a dog?

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2015

Agreed, we had our insurance company inspect our property this spring, ironically they didn't find an issue with the tree that the arborist said was a hazard, we're taking trees down to enhance the efficiency of the solar panels we're installing, the fact that it's a hazard just makes asking the neighbors permission to take it down that much easier.

The insurance company did photograph our dog when they came by. I did check with our insurance before we got the dog that she wouldn't impact our rates. fortunately for us, Dalmatians do not fall on the high risk/bite list, though I do hate the breed discrimination that goes into creating those lists.

vlagrl29 · June 2015

Xstatic3333 said:

I know my insurance company sent me a letter asking about a dog they saw in my yard. Granted, it was shortly after I got the insurance, but I also don't think it is that unusual for insurance companies to occasionally check insured properties.
I was annoyed by their letter, because it had a bit of a nasty tone, and I had fully disclosed when I got the insurance that I had a dog. The letter instructed me to send a pic of my dog and I also had to answer a number of questions about her. With the exception of the pic, ALL the questions they asked had already been answered in my application. Whatever!
GL with everything @blondie42107. I know it is stressful to all of a sudden have this stuff coming up, but I'm sure everything will turn out fine with both the neighbors and the insurance...other than you will probably have to get that tree taken down.
From what I understand, the other PPs are correct. Either your neighbors will need to order an expensive survey to prove where the property line is...making it a bit more unlikely they won't...and, even if they are right, you might still prevail due to the "prescriptive easement" that @Xstatic3333 mentioned.
Uh oh, off topic but this got me thinking, should we have notified our insurance company that we got a dog?

No and I think it's weird that they would even inquire about a dog. I honestly would go with a different insurance company if they were getting that technical.

short+sassy · June 2015

@Xstatic3333, yeah, I would recommend notifying your insurance company you have a dog now. If your dog were to bite someone or another dog, they could potentially not cover it if they weren't notified. Unless it is on their prohibited breeds list, it shouldn't be a big deal or even raise your rates at all.

If I am remembering correctly, isn't he a beagle mix? That should be fine. Prohibited breeds with my insurance are Dobermans, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Chow-Chows, and Pitbulls. That's a pretty typical list with most insurers.

I agree with you, @formerlyGDaisy09. It is a shame there are even such lists because I'm sure the majority of dogs even from the "bad" breeds are just big sweethearts. But the prohibited breeds are the ones that people tend to use as guard dogs, so they get the bad rap. And Rottweilers and Pitbulls, although they don't bite more often than any other breed, tend to cause a lot more damage when they do because of the way their jaws are structured.

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

short+sassy said:
@Xstatic3333, yeah, I would recommend notifying your insurance company you have a dog now. If your dog were to bite someone or another dog, they could potentially not cover it if they weren't notified. Unless it is on their prohibited breeds list, it shouldn't be a big deal or even raise your rates at all.
If I am remembering correctly, isn't he a beagle mix? That should be fine. Prohibited breeds with my insurance are Dobermans, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Chow-Chows, and Pitbulls. That's a pretty typical list with most insurers.
I agree with you, @formerlyGDaisy09. It is a shame there are even such lists because I'm sure the majority of dogs even from the "bad" breeds are just big sweethearts. But the prohibited breeds are the ones that people tend to use as guard dogs, so they get the bad rap. And Rottweilers and Pitbulls, although they don't bite more often than any other breed, tend to cause a lot more damage when they do because of the way their jaws are structured.

Thanks! Will do. He's some sort of ambiguous spaniel mix (Brittany/Cocker maybe?) so I doubt he'll be any trouble. Definitely agree with both of you about the bad lists though! No bad dogs, only bad people.

brij2006 · June 2015

@xstatic3333 You can give them a call to notify them out of courtesy, but I know in our state it isn't required. However, if you had a restricted breed and the company found out, that is cause to cancel an insurance policy. It's sad, because many breeds are on that list that shouldn't be. I know in our office, we don't have a single company who will accept any of the restricted breeds. So if someone gets one of those dogs, then their insurance is cancelled and we have no other company to place them with.

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

brij2006 said:
@xstatic3333 You can give them a call to notify them out of courtesy, but I know in our state it isn't required. However, if you had a restricted breed and the company found out, that is cause to cancel an insurance policy. It's sad, because many breeds are on that list that shouldn't be. I know in our office, we don't have a single company who will accept any of the restricted breeds. So if someone gets one of those dogs, then their insurance is cancelled and we have no other company to place them with.

Thanks bri! I just shot our agent a quick email with a picture and some basic stats. That's too bad about the restricted breeds in your state:-( I know RI has fewer restrictions, though pits cost more to register.

brij2006 · June 2015

Xstatic3333 said:

@xstatic3333 You can give them a call to notify them out of courtesy, but I know in our state it isn't required. However, if you had a restricted breed and the company found out, that is cause to cancel an insurance policy. It's sad, because many breeds are on that list that shouldn't be. I know in our office, we don't have a single company who will accept any of the restricted breeds. So if someone gets one of those dogs, then their insurance is cancelled and we have no other company to place them with.
Thanks bri! I just shot our agent a quick email with a picture and some basic stats. That's too bad about the restricted breeds in your state:-( I know RI has fewer restrictions, though pits cost more to register.

Yeah, their only option is a standard rate company, which is expensive. That's why a lot of renters don't even have renters insurance around here. They don't want to get rid of their pitbull in order to have it.

blondie42107 · June 2015

H contacted the City. The fence permit is on file, was signed in 2002 by the neighbors previous owner and our previous owner. There is no note or record attached saying the fence is in the neighbors property, etc.

Current fence policy is that it needs to be 1 ft inside the property line or if mutually agreed, on the property line (neighbors on the other side - we share a fence which is on the property line). I really don't think the neighbors previous owner would have agreed to a fence on their property. I can't see e even friendly neighbors saying "yeah put a fence on my property to make your backyard bigg..."

The City official apologized that we have these neighbors and made a comment giving H the idea that the City has had to deal with them in the past. Also City said we should have a property stake on each side (we have one visible on the property line with the nice neighbors). We haven't noticed one so the City is sending an employee out to review.

H contacted our home owners insurance, agent had no idea about the letter. He told H to take a picture of a tree we had trimmed last year and that should be all it takes to clear it up.

short+sassy · June 2015

Sorry...going a bit off topic. It just occurred to me that, although the house I live in has breed restrictions with the insurance, the insurance for my (hopefully soon to be) rental properties does not. But, that's just this particular insurance carrier, I think most insurance even for rental properties still has breed restrictions.

And, for my own home which is a duplex, I do allow tenants to have pets...but not any of my insurance's restricted breeds. The same goes for them. I still remember an applicant who called that had three pit bulls. Yikes, no. Not to mention that is just a lot of dogs for an 840 sq. ft. space!

brij2006 · June 2015

short+sassy said:

Sorry...going a bit off topic. It just occurred to me that, although the house I live in has breed restrictions with the insurance, the insurance for my (hopefully soon to be) rental properties does not. But, that's just this particular insurance carrier, I think most insurance even for rental properties still has breed restrictions.
And, for my own home which is a duplex, I do allow tenants to have pets...but not any of my insurance's restricted breeds. The same goes for them. I still remember an applicant who called that had three pit bulls. Yikes, no. Not to mention that is just a lot of dogs for an 840 sq. ft. space!

They do. Just in our area a lot of people try and act like "they had no idea their tenant had a pit bull." I still find it sad that there are breed restrictions in the first place, but it still stinks altogether. Wish the companies would say "we'll insure you, but we will not cover any liability claims against your dog." Tada. The landlord and the tenant can both get insurance, and the company doesn't have to insure the possibly vicious dog.

blondie42107 · June 2015

I'm feeling like I can breathe a little easier now. And I ate a late lunch! First time I've had an appetite since "getting the mail."

It's still not over but we feel better about the fence permit being on file. Now we just wait to find the other property stake!

dragonstarjk · June 2015

It sounds like the city is going to come find the property stakes for you, but if not, you could borrow a metal detector from somebody to find them yourselves. That is what we did when we were preparing for our porch variance. They are metal stakes and sometimes they end up being buried just and inch or two below the surface.

It sounds like you have done your part and if the neighbors want to take it further, that is on them. I would guess that even with the fence permit on file, the only way to settle this if it goes further would be for them to have a survey done, unless there is also a survey on file. Our survey was $700.

blondie42107 · June 2015

A survey was done in 1988. Some new information...

We have dug through all of our mortgage papers. We found the seller disclosure form (2007) and the sellers marked "unknown" under easements, encroachments, etc.

I found a liber and attached title/abstract document that we received after closing on the house. There's a documented encroachment with our fence! We are extremely disappointed that the sellers knowingly withheld this information from us. Apparently it's on record with the county but not mentioned anywhere on our parcel description. Also our original owner and the neighbors previous owner signed and acknowledged the fence permit (2002)!

I have no idea where this puts us. We are going to discuss with our REA - it needs to be addressed before we can sell our house.

AprilZ81 · June 2015

blondie42107 said:

A survey was done in 1988. Some new information... We have dug through all of our mortgage papers. We found the seller disclosure form (2007) and the sellers marked "unknown" under easements, encroachments, etc. I found a liber and attached title/abstract document that we received after closing on the house. There's a documented encroachment with our fence! We are extremely disappointed that the sellers knowingly withheld this information from us. Apparently it's on record with the county but not mentioned anywhere on our parcel description. Also our original owner and the neighbors previous owner signed and acknowledged the fence permit (2002)! I have no idea where this puts us. We are going to discuss with our REA - it needs to be addressed before we can sell our house.

That sucks! Why would someone do that?

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