Debt photos

cbee817 · June 2015

Did anyone see this article on the washington post?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/16/these-powerful-photos-of-people-living-with-debt-will-make-you-feel-not-alone/

I thought it was interesting to see the photos of Americans in debt- a few look like they have really nice places/furniture! Any thoughts?

FirstMate06 · June 2015

Definitely interesting. I absolutely think that the term "in debt" needs to be further defined by the context though. I believe in "smart" debt and I don't expect everyone who is "in debt" to look stereotypically poor or something. Some of those examples were student loan debt and some were houses, cars, etc. I think that loan/mortgage debt versus consumer debt is kind of an apples to oranges comparison.

When my H finished college he had $75,000 in student loan debt. He also had $30,000 in savings but chose to invest a lot of his savings to make more money in the long term instead of paying down the SLs as fast as possible. He paid them off within 2 years but the two of us were "in debt" but really living comfortably with two strong incomes and no children or anything. I know there's mixed feelings on this board about loans/credit/etc. but that's just my personal example of how "in debt" doesn't necessarily mean you're living/spending above your means, and nor does it mean you're visibly poor. I guess people who live lavish lives off of credit cards would also be an example.

Thanks for sharing @cbee817 I'm interested to see the discussion that follows.

jessica490 · June 2015

Wow, very interesting. It just seems like every situation is different for everyone. Some will adjust their current lifestyle due to their debt situation and some won't. I didn't ready through everyone's but seems like education is the common denominator for their debt...but what other choices do people have sometime.... Thanks for sharing!

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

I did see it! It's a nice series, but I agree that the big SL debt totals that led to a solid career are very different then, say, multiple maxed out CC's. H and I have SL totals comparable to many in this series, and don't really feel like they've held us back. We still own a home and live a great life within our means because the DTI works out okay.

cbee817 · June 2015

I thought it was interesting how there wasn't much focus on a typical family. For example, we're a family of 4 with $97,000 in debt- it's our mortgage, but it's still considered debt. DH and I both work, have bachelor's and master's degrees, 2 cars (paid off.. they are older, but run fine), and live quite comfortably. (Our peak for debt was in 2008- mortgage, SL, and car loan- $178,000).

It's technically more than most of the people featured, but maybe because it's a mortgage, it doesn't seem so dire? I don't know- definitely interesting to see the photographer's POV.

simplyelise · June 2015

A lot of this student loan debt is for degrees/schools that don't result in a job that will reasonably cover the loans along with other normal life expenses and upgrades.

I have a friend who went to an out of state, public university for undergrad in political science. Then she had this idea of going to a private, expensive (47k tuition) law school. Now, she's been working for a year as an in-house lawyer. She told me if she and her boyfriend got married, they'd have $500,000 in combined SL debt. But neither is on a track to be a high-earning lawyer. She said they likely will just pay the IBR for 25 years until the debt is discharged.

That sounds like a burden to me, even though it was to finance their careers. She could have gotten a super cheap degree in-state and then gone to a public law school, especially since she's ended not pursuing a partnership or other high-earning-potential law job.

I totally understand that school is unattainable for many without aid and that makes sense. But we've got to get more realistic with young people about cost/benefit of their degrees. It's really hard to pay back an art degree that was 100% financed. Especially when you take out loans for living expenses, not just tuition.

DH got a masters in Defense and Strategic Studies. So about 40k of our starting 55k in debt is from a useless degree. He almost dropped it off his resume during his last job search because it seemed to keep him from entry-level positions while not boosting him up to the next tier.

But yeah, I agree that consumer debt should be viewed seperately from mortgages. But for SLs, it' really depends on a lot of things for me if I think it was worth it.

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2015

This is interesting. I think they definitely need to differentiate between types of debt here. When H's credit card debts were at their worst (~$30K) his average interest rate was something like 21%, that was debt that consumed all our resources for the 18 months it took us to pay it off. however now with $35K in student loans (average rate around 3.5%) and $17K on one car (0.99%) it's slightly heartbreaking to see the amount of our income those loans take every month, but they are not an emergent situation we need to tackle as aggressively and quickly as we did the credit card debt.

It did not seem to me like debt from a single mortgage on a primary residence was included in this article, but other realestate ventures were included.

I think making judgements about people by the furniture in their photos is a bit obtuse, who knows if furniture was inherited, gifted, found at a yard sale, on craigslist, or simply just looks nice. there was a great article in the Chicago Tribune last year about just this kind of thing (judging people for the quality of their stuff) http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-07-11/opinion/ct-mercedes-poor-food-pantry-stamps-oped-0711-20140711_1_food-stamps-six-weeks-two-weeks

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

simplyelise said:

A lot of this student loan debt is for degrees/schools that don't result in a job that will reasonably cover the loans along with other normal life expenses and upgrades.

I have a friend who went to an out of state, public university for undergrad in political science. Then she had this idea of going to a private, expensive (47k tuition) law school. Now, she's been working for a year as an in-house lawyer. She told me if she and her boyfriend got married, they'd have $500,000 in combined SL debt. But neither is on a track to be a high-earning lawyer. She said they likely will just pay the IBR for 25 years until the debt is discharged.

That sounds like a burden to me, even though it was to finance their careers. She could have gotten a super cheap degree in-state and then gone to a public law school, especially since she's ended not pursuing a partnership or other high-earning-potential law job.

I totally understand that school is unattainable for many without aid and that makes sense. But we've got to get more realistic with young people about cost/benefit of their degrees. It's really hard to pay back an art degree that was 100% financed. Especially when you take out loans for living expenses, not just tuition.

DH got a masters in Defense and Strategic Studies. So about 40k of our starting 55k in debt is from a useless degree. He almost dropped it off his resume during his last job search because it seemed to keep him from entry-level positions while not boosting him up to the next tier.

But yeah, I agree that consumer debt should be viewed seperately from mortgages. But for SLs, it' really depends on a lot of things for me if I think it was worth it.

I can agree with this. I went around $33,000 into debt to obtain my graduate degree, which seemed like a fine deal since projected salaries in my field are $40,000 for entry level (keep in mind that I chose my degree for career fulfillment reasons, not MM reasons). In retrospect, I would have tried harder to get scholarships/fellowships to get that number lower (I already worked a ton to avoid living expenses loans and make career connections) but I don't think it's really holding me back. I do have friends, though, who for a combination of reasons such as undergrad debt, unpaid internships, living expenses loans, etc. wracked up around $80,000 for the same degree and they are probably having a rougher time.

I think another big factor with SL's is whether you had to get any private loans. They sound a lot closer to bad consumer debt than the federal loans which have so much flexibility if you get into trouble.

hoffse · June 2015

Between the two of us, H and I have three degrees from Vanderbilt and one from Emory. So we have a lot of debt - vastly more than any of the people in those photos. But we also got scholarships and worked along the way, so our debt is about half of what you might expect. Our friends who went to similar schools and paid full price have about twice as much as what we have.

H and I both got full ride + living stipend offers from one of the better state schools for law school. We would have graduated debt-free if we had done that. Neither of us took that offer, and if we had to do it all over again we would make the same decision. Why? Because both H and I pretty much had our pick of law firms in our market coming from Vandy, and we could also have looked elsewhere for jobs. That state school - while it's very good - would have confined us to a more limited geographic region, and we would have had to kill it in school to be one of the lucky few who landed jobs like we currently have. The lawyers I work with that come out of that school are phenomenal - but they also tend to be in the top 5-10% of their class. What does the other 90% do? We may have graduated without debt if we had gone there, but there's also a really good chance we would have been unemployed.

My perspective on this is that you have to be strategic. H and I each took half rides from Vandy vs. paying full price at Duke or getting a free ride at a lower-ranked state school. It was the sweet spot for what we wanted to do.

I think the problem people run into is not thinking ahead. You have to think about where you want to be 3, 5, and 10 years from now. Sometimes taking on the debt is a smart choice. Sometimes it's a really terrible choice.

And I agree that SL, mortgage, or even low-interest car debt is in a different category altogether than CC debt. CC debt is virtually never a good choice, unless you're looking at a true emergency situation.

lifeonthehill · June 2015

simplyelise said:

A lot of this student loan debt is for degrees/schools that don't result in a job that will reasonably cover the loans along with other normal life expenses and upgrades.

I have a friend who went to an out of state, public university for undergrad in political science. Then she had this idea of going to a private, expensive (47k tuition) law school. Now, she's been working for a year as an in-house lawyer. She told me if she and her boyfriend got married, they'd have $500,000 in combined SL debt. But neither is on a track to be a high-earning lawyer. She said they likely will just pay the IBR for 25 years until the debt is discharged.

That sounds like a burden to me, even though it was to finance their careers. She could have gotten a super cheap degree in-state and then gone to a public law school, especially since she's ended not pursuing a partnership or other high-earning-potential law job.

I totally understand that school is unattainable for many without aid and that makes sense. But we've got to get more realistic with young people about cost/benefit of their degrees. It's really hard to pay back an art degree that was 100% financed. Especially when you take out loans for living expenses, not just tuition.

DH got a masters in Defense and Strategic Studies. So about 40k of our starting 55k in debt is from a useless degree. He almost dropped it off his resume during his last job search because it seemed to keep him from entry-level positions while not boosting him up to the next tier.

But yeah, I agree that consumer debt should be viewed seperately from mortgages. But for SLs, it' really depends on a lot of things for me if I think it was worth it.

So much this. H went to school for a creative writing degree. UGH! He knew by his senior year that he was screwed. He is an amazing writer and being a best selling author was his dream growing up. Fortunately he was able to get his job as a private school English teacher and the degree was worth it in the end

maple2 · June 2015

I don't totally see the connection between her personal experience and this art project. I have never felt like it was difficult to see the face of someone in debt because most people I know have a mortgage and/or student loan. None of the people I know feel particularly ashamed about that debt, and it seems like quite a few of the people in her series are in the same boat. They have a comfortable amount of debt for their income and see it as a useful tool for getting what they wanted (education, house, etc.).

I would be more interested in the stories of people more like herself, who experienced difficult times (unemployment, health issues, addiction, etc.) that led to increasing debt beyond their ability to pay. Or maybe people who got into so much debt from "good" things like education and/or mortgages that they ended up living pay check to pay check. I also think those stories would fit more with her goal of reducing the shame and stigma of the kind of debt she experienced. Maybe I just misunderstood her goal, though. Or maybe my experience with debt (for myself and knowing so many people with mortgage/student loans) is more unusual that I realized.

short+sassy · June 2015

hoffse said:

Between the two of us, H and I have three degrees from Vanderbilt and one from Emory. So we have a lot of debt - vastly more than any of the people in those photos. But we also got scholarships and worked along the way, so our debt is about half of what you might expect. Our friends who went to similar schools and paid full price have about twice as much as what we have.

H and I both got full ride + living stipend offers from one of the better state schools for law school. We would have graduated debt-free if we had done that. Neither of us took that offer, and if we had to do it all over again we would make the same decision. Why? Because both H and I pretty much had our pick of law firms in our market coming from Vandy, and we could also have looked elsewhere for jobs. That state school - while it's very good - would have confined us to a more limited geographic region, and we would have had to kill it in school to be one of the lucky few who landed jobs like we currently have. The lawyers I work with that come out of that school are phenomenal - but they also tend to be in the top 5-10% of their class. What does the other 90% do? We may have graduated without debt if we had gone there, but there's also a really good chance we would have been unemployed.

My perspective on this is that you have to be strategic. H and I each took half rides from Vandy vs. paying full price at Duke or getting a free ride at a lower-ranked state school. It was the sweet spot for what we wanted to do.

I think the problem people run into is not thinking ahead. You have to think about where you want to be 3, 5, and 10 years from now. Sometimes taking on the debt is a smart choice. Sometimes it's a really terrible choice.

And I agree that SL, mortgage, or even low-interest car debt is in a different category altogether than CC debt. CC debt is virtually never a good choice, unless you're looking at a true emergency situation.

I've always found it interesting that, to an extent, it doesn't really matter where a person gets an undergrad degree, just that they have one. Whereas higher learning, esp. law and medical schools, it seems like the opposite. The school a person graduates from becomes key in how likely and how well they will be employed.

I found the article intriguing. Thanks for posting it, @cbee817. I also noticed a lot of talk about student loans in the photos. I'm probably a bit older than most of you (41), but I've found it really interesting the path that the general idea of "student loans" have taken in the last couple decades. In the early 90s...coming right off the fat economic times of the 80s...schooling was seen as nothing but positive. The attitude was that expanding your education, even if you wouldn't be using it, was a good thing and would enrich your life. Student loans were never even really talked about.

However, now education costs have skyrocketed, but salaries have not at the same ratio (nowhere near). You see college grads coming out of school with enormous debt and dire job prospects. And, although the housing crisis was not caused by this, it doesn't help that the average person is buying their first home later and later, largely due to student loan debt.

You know how every once in awhile you'll get involved in a discussion of "what would you do if you won the lottery"? My response is always, "I'd get a PhD in history." Because the only way I could see getting an expensive "useless" degree like that is if I had both a lot of time and a lot of money, lol. But I would sure enjoy expanding my educational background!

als1982 · June 2015

Interesting. We are in the minority on this board in that we view all debt the same, as long as it incurs interest. When we first got married, we had $80,000 in student loans. It was just sickening to know how much - more than $500 at that point - was going solely to pay the interest every month. Sure, student loans are worth it and, often but not always, so are mortgages, and it's important to also prioritize saving for retirement, but we're just as focused at getting rid of them (our student loans and mortgage) as we would be if we had any other consumer debt.

hoffse · June 2015

@short+sassy, it's definitely true that the major financial investment needs to come at the graduate level. H and I had help for undergrad, which is why we went private. We both contributed and got scholarships, but our parents paid as much as they could.

I remember my parents telling me I could go to UGA for free, or I could go to Vandy and contribute $75K (in whatever way). Well I chose Vandy - I got $60K from Vandy scholarships, $10K from external scholarships, and then I worked during the school year for the remaining $5K. I finished paying back that last bit 2 days before I started law school.

But if I hadn't gotten that $60K scholarship, I would have picked UGA. I do think my Vandy undergrad degree was amazing - the quality of that education was incredible, and I got to do some seriously cool things because of the alumni network - but for my current job, my law school alma mater was a lot more important than my undergrad.

Of course, my undergrad education was a big factor in where I got into law school and how much money those schools offered me. I applied to 20 law schools, got into 19 of them and got waitlisted at 1. I was able to play them off of each other for scholarship offers. I credit Vandy for a lot of that.

H had a similar experience.

I think there's a ton of value in a traditional liberal arts education, whether it leads directly to a job or not. I even think the "impractical" majors are fine, as long as you are doing it with your eyes open - heck, I was an art history major and it's been surprisingly useful in the legal field. But I also think that with the rising cost of tuition, students need to be really strategic with where they invest their student loan dollars if they are the ones paying.

Xstatic3333 · June 2015

hoffse said:
@short+sassy, it's definitely true that the major financial investment needs to come at the graduate level. H and I had help for undergrad, which is why we went private. We both contributed and got scholarships, but our parents paid as much as they could.

I remember my parents telling me I could go to UGA for free, or I could go to Vandy and contribute $75K (in whatever way). Well I chose Vandy - I got $60K from Vandy scholarships, $10K from external scholarships, and then I worked during the school year for the remaining $5K. I finished paying back that last bit 2 days before I started law school.

But if I hadn't gotten that $60K scholarship, I would have picked UGA. I do think my Vandy undergrad degree was amazing - the quality of that education was incredible, and I got to do some seriously cool things because of the alumni network - but for my current job, my law school alma mater was a lot more important than my undergrad.

Of course, my undergrad education was a big factor in where I got into law school and how much money those schools offered me. I applied to 20 law schools, got into 19 of them and got waitlisted at 1. I was able to play them off of each other for scholarship offers. I credit Vandy for a lot of that.

H had a similar experience.

I think there's a ton of value in a traditional liberal arts education, whether it leads directly to a job or not. I even think the "impractical" majors are fine, as long as you are doing it with your eyes open - heck, I was an art history major and it's been surprisingly useful in the legal field. But I also think that with the rising cost of tuition, students need to be really strategic with where they invest their student loan dollars if they are the ones paying.

I think you the nail on the head-it all comes down to having a plan. There's a huge intrinsic value to a liberal arts education if you have a plan for what to do with it. The humanities can be a great choice for a driven prelaw student or someone who wants to teach. I have some friends who paired a humanities undergrad with an MBA and now are very well-compensated consultants. We even have a friend who majored in philosophy, got his PhD, and is now a professor. Somebody's gotta do it! He knew he was setting off on a tough path, and had to travel all over the country, but he got it done.

brij2006 · June 2015

I wish they would do one for the opposite scenario. Photo's of people living without debt. So you could compare.

As someone who is very close to being 100% debt free (including mortgage), we treat our things so much differently now. We always took care of our "stuff," but I've really noticed that we have a whole new appreciation for them. Our cars are always hand washed and clean, our lawn is being cared for a lot more, we have the means to repair things immediately and be proactive about repairs, and there's just a much different sense of pride in our jobs now that they aren't needed to make payments.

Dave Ramsey has a saying that your lawn feels different when it's paid for. I never understood that, but I get it now. You really do live differently when you don't have debt, and it's a good different.

vlagrl29 · June 2015

I think there is a difference between good and bad debt and that should be noted as well. I also don't believe you shouldn't get an art degree if it's too expensive. People should do what they love no matter what it is. That's what we are doing and living proof that it's sustainable.

KAdams767 · June 2015

Xstatic3333 said:

simplyelise said:

A lot of this student loan debt is for degrees/schools that don't result in a job that will reasonably cover the loans along with other normal life expenses and upgrades.

I have a friend who went to an out of state, public university for undergrad in political science. Then she had this idea of going to a private, expensive (47k tuition) law school. Now, she's been working for a year as an in-house lawyer. She told me if she and her boyfriend got married, they'd have $500,000 in combined SL debt. But neither is on a track to be a high-earning lawyer. She said they likely will just pay the IBR for 25 years until the debt is discharged.

That sounds like a burden to me, even though it was to finance their careers. She could have gotten a super cheap degree in-state and then gone to a public law school, especially since she's ended not pursuing a partnership or other high-earning-potential law job.

I totally understand that school is unattainable for many without aid and that makes sense. But we've got to get more realistic with young people about cost/benefit of their degrees. It's really hard to pay back an art degree that was 100% financed. Especially when you take out loans for living expenses, not just tuition.

DH got a masters in Defense and Strategic Studies. So about 40k of our starting 55k in debt is from a useless degree. He almost dropped it off his resume during his last job search because it seemed to keep him from entry-level positions while not boosting him up to the next tier.

But yeah, I agree that consumer debt should be viewed seperately from mortgages. But for SLs, it' really depends on a lot of things for me if I think it was worth it.

I can agree with this. I went around $33,000 into debt to obtain my graduate degree, which seemed like a fine deal since projected salaries in my field are $40,000 for entry level (keep in mind that I chose my degree for career fulfillment reasons, not MM reasons). In retrospect, I would have tried harder to get scholarships/fellowships to get that number lower (I already worked a ton to avoid living expenses loans and make career connections) but I don't think it's really holding me back. I do have friends, though, who for a combination of reasons such as undergrad debt, unpaid internships, living expenses loans, etc. wracked up around $80,000 for the same degree and they are probably having a rougher time.

I think another big factor with SL's is whether you had to get any private loans. They sound a lot closer to bad consumer debt than the federal loans which have so much flexibility if you get into trouble.

The bolded isn't necessarily true though, either. For a lot of people, having private loans has really paid off the last, say, 8 years. Federal loans with interest rates of 6.8% minimum, while you could float a private loan at prime for about 2-3%? If you manage your debt load and understand your loan terms, private loans are not a bad idea, especially recently.

Mustard76 · June 2015

vlagrl29 said:
I think there is a difference between good and bad debt and that should be noted as well. I also don't believe you shouldn't get an art degree if it's too expensive. People should do what they love no matter what it is. That's what we are doing and living proof that it's sustainable.

This 100%. We are careful with money, and we (H and I) work hard at making good decisions. It hasn't always been that way. My parents aren't that great with money and they NEVER spoke about it, so a lot of what I learned, unfortunately, was learned the hard way. That said, I think those are such valuable lessons. I learned how to dig myself out of $10k in credit card debt at 22 because I insisted on going to private school and I had to make it work. Smart decision? Probably not. But life is about so much more than money. I'm not an advocate of burying yourself and living beyond your means. But there has to be a cost/benefit solution. If I made decisions strictly based on finances, I wouldn't be married, I wouldn't have a dog, I wouldn't ever go out to eat. Life is meant for living. And while we're working on building a secure future so we don't have to struggle, you can't take a pile of cash to the grave with you. If education brings you joy, or adds value to your life, by all means, get an education.

KAdams767 · June 2015

Also, I just have to add that I hate the stigma now associated with "useless" degrees or that all degrees need to lead to specific careers. It's ridiculous that education is becoming so money-driven. I am all for the balancing act of cost of degree(s) vs. earning potential, but the U.S. is going to be a sad, sad place if the "useless" classes, majors and degrees disappear. While their degrees might not lead to a direct and specific career path, liberal arts graduates are ideal candidates for an absolute ton of jobs. While STEM careers and other specific vocations are wonderful, and great options for those who are so inclined, the world still needs and benefits from an educated and literate populace. IMO, it's ideal to be well-rounded.

vlagrl29 · June 2015

Yep, and why live life doing something that is just bringing you money but not happiness. I've been there and don't ever care to go back to that way of living. I don't consider what I do a job because I really have fun doing it.

Another reason I think it's important to take vacations and experience life are because you only have 1 life to live and assuming you have money set aside to do so you should experience beauty in the world.

hoffse · June 2015

KAdams767 said:

Also, I just have to add that I hate the stigma now associated with "useless" degrees or that all degrees need to lead to specific careers. It's ridiculous that education is becoming so money-driven. I am all for the balancing act of cost of degree(s) vs. earning potential, but the U.S. is going to be a sad, sad place if the "useless" classes, majors and degrees disappear. While their degrees might not lead to a direct and specific career path, liberal arts graduates are ideal candidates for an absolute ton of jobs. While STEM careers and other specific vocations are wonderful, and great options for those who are so inclined, the world still needs and benefits from an educated and literate populace. IMO, it's ideal to be well-rounded.

Agreed, 100%. A liberal arts education was never about getting a job, it's about getting an education. It's about learning to think critically and being a thoughtful, informed adult. I get annoyed when people assume you have to find a job that's directly related to your major, otherwise that major was useless. If you're a philosophy major and go into HR (for example), that philosophy degree can still be incredibly valuable - in that it has taught you to think, weigh choices, write well, and consider multiple viewpoints before making decisions or forming an opinion.

And it's really amazing how those "useless" degrees can actually become directly useful during the most unexpected times. H was a music composition major. A few weeks ago he got invited to be on the board of a professional symphony. He's 27. He's insanely young for an opportunity like that, but the sitting board members found value in his "useless" undergraduate degree. Practically, that opportunity is going to pay off in a big way over time.

I wish more people found value in education itself. People pay lip service to how important education is, but when it comes to actually paying for that education, you hear a lot of criticism about the liberal arts core. I absolutely think that the sticker price for many institutions has gotten insane - but my answer to that is maybe you shouldn't be paying sticker price. And if you have to, then maybe you should look at other places. More than half the students I graduated with at Vandy (undergrad) were on significant merit-based scholarships. That group that paid full price was subsidizing those of us who weren't.

I'm incredibly grateful that my parents valued education for education's sake - and they didn't view my undergraduate experience as a necessary step toward getting a job.

bridejl · June 2015

hoffse said:

KAdams767 said:

Also, I just have to add that I hate the stigma now associated with "useless" degrees or that all degrees need to lead to specific careers. It's ridiculous that education is becoming so money-driven. I am all for the balancing act of cost of degree(s) vs. earning potential, but the U.S. is going to be a sad, sad place if the "useless" classes, majors and degrees disappear. While their degrees might not lead to a direct and specific career path, liberal arts graduates are ideal candidates for an absolute ton of jobs. While STEM careers and other specific vocations are wonderful, and great options for those who are so inclined, the world still needs and benefits from an educated and literate populace. IMO, it's ideal to be well-rounded.

Agreed, 100%. A liberal arts education was never about getting a job, it's about getting an education. It's about learning to think critically and being a thoughtful, informed adult. I get annoyed when people assume you have to find a job that's directly related to your major, otherwise that major was useless. If you're a philosophy major and go into HR (for example), that philosophy degree can still be incredibly valuable - in that it has taught you to think, weigh choices, write well, and consider multiple viewpoints before making decisions or forming an opinion.

And it's really amazing how those "useless" degrees can actually become directly useful during the most unexpected times. H was a music composition major. A few weeks ago he got invited to be on the board of a professional symphony. He's 27. He's insanely young for an opportunity like that, but the sitting board members found value in his "useless" undergraduate degree. Practically, that opportunity is going to pay off in a big way over time.

I wish more people found value in education itself. People pay lip service to how important education is, but when it comes to actually paying for that education, you hear a lot of criticism about the liberal arts core. I absolutely think that the sticker price for many institutions has gotten insane - but my answer to that is maybe you shouldn't be paying sticker price. And if you have to, then maybe you should look at other places. More than half the students I graduated with at Vandy (undergrad) were on significant merit-based scholarships. That group that paid full price was subsidizing those of us who weren't.

I'm incredibly grateful that my parents valued education for education's sake - and they didn't view my undergraduate experience as a necessary step toward getting a job.

Agreed here, too, 100%! Especially with the bolded part. My degree is in Psychology and Sociology, and I'm doing HR. I thought I wanted to go to grad school for counseling, but right after college I had a couple social work-type jobs and knew it wasn't the route for me. When I took my office admin job (that has turned into HR), people judgingly asked 'oh but you're not using Psychology?' Well, yes actually I do use it everyday. I use empathy, communication, critical thinking, and writing skills each and every day.

And now that I'm in the corporate world, I've found that industrial/organizational psych may be an interest of mine. Going that direction may be in my future, who knows. But not one day has gone by that I haven't used my education!

hoffse · June 2015

I'll also add - isn't there inherent value in learning about something that deeply interests you? I was an art history major. That education gave me a life-long love of art, and it inspired me to start traveling to see those pieces. I never cared to leave the country before I majored in art history (in fact, I didn't have a passport until I was in college), but art really opened the world for me. I stopped spending money on clothes and started saving it. I worked an extra job and sold stuff so that I could study abroad in Italy for a summer - all because I found a class that I just had to take in Rome. How do you put a price tag on that?

For H, music was the same way. He understands music at a completely different level because he learned to compose for orchestra while in college. His professors discovered that he had a real talent for it, and they encouraged and trained him independently to develop those skills. Even most music majors can't hear the things he can hear. How much is something like that worth? More than a car? More than a house? I think so - he will have it for the rest of his life. We certainly aren't going to have the house for the rest of our lives.

I think that's why I'm in favor of paying for kids' college - or at least lowering the cost enough so that it's accessible for them. I'd rather give them the chance to learn something interesting than pay for a wedding or a car.

short+sassy · June 2015

I think on a undergrad level, it does not matter as much what a person's degree is in. Sure, some degrees will have more jobs open for those grads...like engineering, accounting, etc. But many jobs that require a BS or BA don't necessarily specify a major.

I chose to get my degree in Business Administration because it seemed like a practical choice. I liked what I studied and still find what I learned even way back then, useful in understanding the world around me. But if I had picked a major based on my passion, I would have chosen archaeology or history. Would my career path have been any different? Probably not, lol. I've had jobs that required a Bachelor's, but never one that specifically required a Business major.

But the sad fact is, education is crazy expensive in our country. Especially if you start talking about advanced degrees. I'm not knocking education for education's sake. It is very enriching. However, unless they are independently wealthy, people need to be realistic about the cost vs. the job prospects/salary.

For example, my entire childhood I wanted to be an archaeologist...or at least from when I knew what one was, which was at a young enough age I don't even remember. But by the time I hit jr. high/early high school, I knew the reality of the situation was I would need to attain a PhD (spending $100Ks) to work in that field and would then spend my life begging for grants. Not a pretty picture, at least not to me, Perhaps it wouldn't have been that dire. Or perhaps I would be happily in perpetual SL debt while I'm living an amazing life trudging through the jungles of the Amazon or the deserts of Egypt. Obviously not the path I chose, so I really can't say. But I still think I made the best bet, at least for me.

Mustard76 · June 2015

I'm by no means justifying the cost of education. I think the overall cost of a degree is outrageous, and if I had to do it all over again, I would've chosen a state school 100%. However, IMO, it is a question of value. Do you value paying (x) amount of money for (x) product? I think it's really easy to say what other people should value, or what makes the most financial sense. But to some people, there is tremendous value in studying a certain subject, or learning more about a passion, regardless of whether or not that education "pays for itself." Pays for itself is relative. Did it pay in monetary value? Maybe, maybe not. But what about in personal value? That's highly individual and immeasurable. And I think it's easy to judge the choices of others. I worked with someone who spent 6 years earning a BA in Native American Studies. Would I find value in spending thousands of dollars for that degree? Nope. But does that matter? Not as long as she's happy with her choices. After all, it's her hard-earned money paying back the loans, not mine.

simplyelise · June 2015

KAdams767 said:

Also, I just have to add that I hate the stigma now associated with "useless" degrees or that all degrees need to lead to specific careers. It's ridiculous that education is becoming so money-driven. I am all for the balancing act of cost of degree(s) vs. earning potential, but the U.S. is going to be a sad, sad place if the "useless" classes, majors and degrees disappear. While their degrees might not lead to a direct and specific career path, liberal arts graduates are ideal candidates for an absolute ton of jobs. While STEM careers and other specific vocations are wonderful, and great options for those who are so inclined, the world still needs and benefits from an educated and literate populace. IMO, it's ideal to be well-rounded.

I think this makes sense for undergrad, but I can't tell you how many people I know who went to grad school simply because they didn't know what to do next. DH didn't get a master's in defense and strategic studies because he was in love with the field but because it somewhat intrigued him and he didn't know what he wanted to do with his history degree. I could name 5 people I was friends with who went to law school because they didn't know what else do. I've got no problem with someone getting a liberal arts or fine arts degree or graduate degree because they have an intense passion for it and they know that if they want a job in it it will be difficult or else they know they'll have to work hard to get in in another field. But so many people go into art because they like art and they don't know what else to pick.

The friend I referenced earlier is a frustrating case because she drank to much in her out of state undergrad uni and lost several scholarships and now she's not even planning on paying back all her student loans but letting the government pay off what she hasn't in 25 years. That's just failing to take responsibility for your choices.

I wish so much of scholarships and aid wasn't focused on going immediately from high school to college. I wish we had more of a gap year philosophy so people who need extra time to try things out or decide what they want to do can actually take that time without sacrificing aid.

For the record, I got a BS in Math Education and I work as an Executive Assisant at a joint action agency. I'm really glad I got the degree I did and I do feel like I use skills from it regularly. It was in-state, public, and I got about 50% covered with scholarships and my parents covered the rest of tuition while I paid living expenses. I definitely want to be able to help my children with the cost of in-state tuition.

hoffse · June 2015

I agree it's stupid to go back to school with a lot of debt just because you don't know what else to do with your life. But there are plenty of ways to get a graduate education on the cheap. If I hadn't been sure that I wanted to try firm work for awhile, I would have gone to that state law school for free. That wouldn't have been a bad way to spend some time figuring out what I wanted to do while making myself more marketable generally. People don't realize how much merit-based aid is out there for the graduate level. I applied to a lot of law schools (20), and at the end I added up all the scholarship offers I got. It was over $3M combined. It's crazy, but even professional schools where they assume you're going to make a lot of money someday offer aid. You just have to keep your eye on the ball and be strategic about it. Maybe that means you don't go to your top choice school or the single best school you got into - personally, I went to my third choice law school because my first choice didn't offer me anything and my second choice didn't offer me quite enough. Opting out of my top two choices wasn't a bad trade for the quality of my degree vs. the amount of money I paid for it.

If I had gone to graduate school to get my PhD - which is something I thought hard about - I absolutely would not have gone to a program without a fellowship. Most programs have fellowships for quite a few of their PhD students so that you don't pay a penny for that degree (or at worst, you stop paying after you get your masters). My dad is a college professor, and for as long as I can remember he has said that if your PhD program doesn't offer you a fellowship, look elsewhere... because you can be sure they are giving out fellowships to some of the peers in your class, and then you're the person subsidizing their education. I would wager that the vast majority - and possibly almost all - of the professors at big state schools or mid-upper tier private schools did not pay for their PhDs.

I think one real problem is that people stumble around without learning how the system works first when it comes to aid. Taking on debt for a graduate degree should be a choice, rather than a necessity. I'm sure there are some specialized programs out there that don't offer aid, but then students should think long and hard about what the value of that degree is to them (either financially or personally) before just signing up. I just get the sense that a lot of people don't realize how much money they have spent until their first student loan bill becomes due. The sticker price of education is definitely far too high, but on the flip side... nobody is making you pay full price. That choice is on the student.

And not going to lie - a big part of me is also thinks that if you don't have the option for a scholarship somewhere, then maybe you weren't meant to be in that profession or get that degree. Or maybe you overvalued what your actual worth is to the academic community and aimed a bit too high for the schools you applied to (lots of people do that).

formerlyGDaisy09 · June 2015

I'd agree that a lot of the problem with SLs is that people don't understand the system, and they trust the fiinancial aid office is on their side. that is how H ended-up with all his loans and no degree. the financial aid office got him unsubsidized loans (the ones you have to start paying back while you're still in school). they advised him to open a credit card to pay for books, and he eventually had to drop out of school because the loan and credit card payments were too much. so he's now in a situation where he is not employable at positions that ask for a BS or BA and he has more loan debt than many with a BS or BA.

I absolutely think (with the exception of medical school and law school) that you should not ever pay full price for a higher level degree. most PhD programs include a stipend (for research and/or teaching requirements), and most other times there are ways to pay for a degree with grants, and/or employee assistance programs. It makes me sick to think about many of the newly minted BS students who pay $65K+ (most often with additional loans for living expenses) for the masters program I completed (with a grant) as a stepping stone on their way to medical or nursing school which will get them another $200K+ in loan debt.

short+sassy · June 2015

@hoffse, that is really interesting about all the aid that is available for advanced degrees. My only exposure to scholarships was trying to get ones for my undergrad, but it seemed like 90% of them were need based only. Although my parents made less than the average income for our area, we lived in a HCOL area, so they made too much for me to qualify. But I will need to keep that in mind if I revisit getting an advanced degree.

I found the whole thing disappointing and frustrating and just threw up my hands with it, though I did get a couple small scholarships. Of course, I should have looked harder and turned over more stones, But I was also only 16-17, so it probably didn't take much to frustrate me, lol.

My anecdotal study is, off the top of my head, I know three people with advanced degrees. Two of them either regret their degree or regret the subject. One of them regrets getting her MBA entirely because of SL debt...and hers is even in marketing, which is a pretty marketable degree (not to sound redundant, lol). One of them got a PhD in a science, but regrets his choice of study because the salaries will mean a long time paying off the loan. So he is now "doubling down" on SLs and is in medical school. I jokingly told him the bright side is all his classmates have to refer to him as Dr. now, instead of four years from now.

short+sassy · June 2015

brij2006 said:

I wish they would do one for the opposite scenario. Photo's of people living without debt. So you could compare.

As someone who is very close to being 100% debt free (including mortgage), we treat our things so much differently now. We always took care of our "stuff," but I've really noticed that we have a whole new appreciation for them. Our cars are always hand washed and clean, our lawn is being cared for a lot more, we have the means to repair things immediately and be proactive about repairs, and there's just a much different sense of pride in our jobs now that they aren't needed to make payments.

Dave Ramsey has a saying that your lawn feels different when it's paid for. I never understood that, but I get it now. You really do live differently when you don't have debt, and it's a good different.

I was actually mulling over your post yesterday and thought it was an interesting take. I tried to envision those photos and really kept coming back to the same conclusion. I think the photos of people with no or little debt would look largely the same. If anything, I suspect most of the photos would have modest surroundings. Generally speaking, no McMansions or flashy new cars in the driveway. McMansions and new cars might mean a healthy income, but they don't necessarily mean no debt.

Thanks for your verbal description of what no/little debt looks and feels like. My analogy is my DH and I had been living together for 10+ years when we got married and I really didn't think that getting married would make our lives feel any different. But it did. It was a better different.

I look forward to someday knowing the "better different" of no debt, including mortgages, and congrats to you all for saving/working hard to achieve that!

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