Europe 2015! Travel and money saving tips appreciated!

bmo88 · August 2015

We have officially submitted our vacation requests for time off and we are booking tickets this week! I am so excited. We have been saving for two years and will be going to Europe for 20 days in December. I know it will be colder, but it's the only time of the year we can go (due to job restrictions), so we are going to make the most of it.

Here are the basics we have planned so far:

UK--London (3 days)
Germany--Frankfurt & Munich (5 days)
Italy--Rome & Venice (5 days)
Spain--Barcelona (4 days)
France--Paris (3 days)

We are flying in between countries, which is surprisingly cheap and saves a lot of travel time. We are spending a long period of time in one country, which isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it's our preference. We are researching AirBnB and hotels to price compare. I have decided to use the Rick Steve's travel guide (picked up a "like new" version on Amazon for cheap) and it seems to be a good budget friendly travel guide.

Airline tickets from Denver to London then Paris to Denver are $1,039 a person (which seems to be a pretty decent price). We are just trying to figure out what to expect for food expenses, in Europe flights and entertainment.

For those who have been to Europe, I would love to hear any tips or money saving ideas you might have!

hoffse · August 2015

That's a lot of cities! I'll do my best to make this as concise as possible. Here's the cheap/free list that I know about:

London - most of the major museums are free. That includes the British Museum (with the actual Rosetta stone), the two Tates, the national gallery, etc. The V&A is a personal favorite.

Most of the churches, monuments, etc. in London are paid. Don't buy a London Pass because that's a waste of money. Instead, use this website for BOGO tickets. Read up on how to do this on TripAdvisor because you have to buy the right kind of tube ticket to use these coupons. There is lots of info there.

http://www.daysoutguide.co.uk/2for1-london

Paris - do the math to see if you'll get value from it, but look at the Paris museum pass. They sell 2 day, 4 day, and 6 day passes. Pretty much every major attraction is included (except the Eiffel Tower), and you get line-skipping privileges at a lot of places. You can also revisit any museum while the pass is active. That's HUGE for Louvre, which is impossible to "do" in a few hours. H and I are efficient, and I had a list of art I wanted to see in Paris. We bought 2-day passes for 42 euros each and got about 85 euros of value out of each one of them. That's probably atypical because we popped in to see one or two things at many places, but still. It was great for us, and we probably jumped 1000 people in lines. I would have paid 42 euros just for that.

Rome - my favorite city in the world. You need to devote a day to the Vatican and a day to the ancient stuff. Other than that, my favorite thing to do in Rome is visit churches - most of them are free or cost less than a Euro to turn the lights on at the famous art. Santa Maria della Vittoria has Bernini's Ecstasy of St. Theresa. San Giovanni in Laterno is the actual cathedral of Rome (St. P's is not). St. Peter in Chains is an ugly building, but it has Michelangelo's best sculpture (for me), which is his Moses. It's way more epic than the David. The best ceilings are in Il Gesu and Sant'Ignazio. I would encourage you to visit at least a few of these. For H and me, European churches are one of the reasons to fly over there. The art and architecture is amazing. We aren't particularly religious.

Germany - we will be there in December as well. Two words: Christmas markets! If nothing else, they ought to be festive and provide a way to eat some cheap street food that will warm you up. Most of the markets end on Dec. 23 or 24 though, so I would make a point to be in Germany while they are on if possible.

Barcelona - haven't been there yet, but tentatively planning on 2016 or 2017. We will be booking tickets to La Sagrada Familia in advance if we go.

We research attractions heavily and then decide which things must be booked in advance. We try to work those things into our cash flow. I try to only book things that we are sure to see in advance - you never know.

Food generally - if you want tap water in a restaurant, you need to order it. Otherwise, you'll be brought bottled water and charged for it. If you want American coffee, you usually have to call it that. Europeans generally don't drink coffee brewed the way we do. Try their version though - it's much better! In Italy, drinking coffee while standing at the bar is cheaper than sitting down. Actually, many restaurants charge more for sitting down (or outside) than taking food with you or eating at the bar. Beer and wine can usually be found for about the same price as soft drinks... so you know what I would pick. For cheaper/good restaurants, be willing to walk a few blocks away from a major tourist attraction. H and I also really like visiting grocery stores. We buy stuff like chocolate there. It's cheaper than in actual chocolate shops and still 10x better than what you can buy here.

You're visiting many countries, so do try to learn a few phrases. A polite "bonjour" or "buongiorno" will get you a long way in Paris and Rome. I also recommend learning how to say "excuse me" in each language so that you can (nicely) get people to move out of your way in a crowd.

Have you already booked flights between cities? If not, look at train tickets for at least a few legs. I would definitely train between London and Paris on the Eurostar (it's only a 2-hour ride) and then I would look at taking a train between France and either Barcelona or Germany, depending on your itinerary. Also look at trains between Rome and Venice. In many countries, booking trains in advance will save you a LOT of money. I think you can book the Eurostar 6 months in advance, but most other trains are 90 days out. The German rail site is a good way to search timetables for all of Europe, and you can change the language to English - www.bahn.de. Also, www.seat61.com is a wonderful resource to learn about the quirks of train travel for each country.

I think trains end up costing about the same as flying, because you'll find yourselves spending a lot on baggage fees for the budget airlines. But it's far more civilized than flying. The trains take you city-center to city-center (most airports are 30-60 minutes outside of the big cities), and you don't risk being the subject of a search by a member of the French police who is holding a submachine gun.

I would do hotels when staying in a place for fewer than 4 nights. We loved staying in an apartment in France, but we were in one place for a week. Checking in and out of apartments is another layer of complexity that hotels don't have because you often have to work around the owner's schedule. Hotels will also hold your luggage for you, even if your room isn't ready. Apartments rarely do that. My advice is to be willing to spend a little more if the location is good. Make a point to be near public transportation, whether it's your arriving/departing train station or a metro stop that links cleanly with it. Hauling luggage from city to city is no joke, and many metro/underground stations don't have elevators or escalators. Public transport is usually the cheapest way to get from point A to point B, but with that many cities.... I would budget some cab rides too.

Sorry this has gotten long, but last bit of advice - give yourselves plenty of wiggle room for food/shopping over and above what you estimate you will spend on attractions, and then you'll come home to a nice financial surprise. H and I usually budget 100-150 euros/day for food and souvenirs depending on where we are going. This is quite a bit more than we usually need. It provides some flexibility to buy a few nice items or eat out at a couple nice restaurants. We also usually pack snacks like granola bars, pop tarts, etc. that we eat down while we are there. Two reasons. First, it's a cheap way to eat breakfast or snack during the day. Second, it forces us to pack light and leave room in our luggage to bring stuff back.

I'm excited to hear about the trip as you make plans!

als1982 · August 2015

Woohoo!! Congratulations! This is very exciting.

For us, travel is one area where we are loose with budgeting. We work miles to order to get free flights, which saves a ton. Less often but occasionally we also use points to get free hotels. But if we're not using points for a free hotel, I always try to book to earn more miles for future travel using a variety of techniques, including rocketmiles.com or booking through united.com. Not for Europe, but I've also found great deals through jetsetter.com. I will say, I'm pretty picky about hotels, so we aren't very thrifty in this area. In terms of budget, we typically allocate $150 per day per person for meals, activities and other.

As to what you should see and do, every traveler is different. We're not so much church or museum people, so take that into account with our suggestions. I also live in Kansas, so I love any beach time I can get and will make that a priority whenever possible.

Here are my suggestions for London: One of our favorite cities! We spent 3 days here and have added it to our list of places to go back to. HERE is where we stayed. We liked the area, good proximity to buses, the Thames river walk (cool street art, performances and food trucks, etc.), St. Paul's cathedral, and the theater district. One thing we didn't like was that it's a business district, so a lot of the little stores and restaurants are closed after work hours and on the weekends.

Do catch a hop-on-hop-off bus when you first arrive. In London, they have some that include live narrators that you can ask questions. It's a great way to get a good overview of the city and determine what else you really want to see.

We did go see a play, which I definitely recommend! The production was incredible, great seats were reasonably inexpensive (I think we paid $75/pp for third row), and the vibe is way less stuffy than in the U.S. H loved that you could buy beer and drink it in his seat during the show.

We also got to know the tube and train system really well in the U.K. It takes patience the first time, but once you've got the hang of it, it's fantastic. One big part of our trip was to watch a Tottenham Hotspurs soccer match. H is a big sports fan, so everywhere we travel he likes to tour a local stadium. This time, we took an opportunity to go to a game. If that's your thing, I recommend it. But, do know their ticket system is different and you'll likely have to buy a membership to the club before you can even buy tickets. I think it was $75/pp for the membership and then $65/pp for front row tickets. It's definitely a different sports experience than in the U.S. Also know if this is something you're going to do, there will be a longish line to catch a train home (we waited maybe 45 minutes).

We didn't care for the changing of the guard. The crowd was huge and you couldn't really see anything. I would honestly skip it. If you want to see Buckingham Palace, go really early in the morning either by foot or by cab, as tour buses aren't allowed to drive out front.

As for dining, be sure you check out Harrods food court. It's insane. Also, many of the pubs in London are actually chains, and are pretty terrible. We did go HERE, and it was great. The history and character of the place were incredible, and it was probably the best food we had in London.

I've never been to Germany or Venice, but I have been to Rome: Definitely not my favorite city, but I also visited in the heat and peak tourist season of July. I did enjoy the Colosseum, as well as the Trevi Fountain and the quaint area that surrounded this monument - lots of great little shops and cafes. I personally didn't care for the Vatican, but again I'm not a fan of art museums or churches, plus I'm not Catholic, AND the place was uncomfortably packed.

Barcelona: Probably my top favorite EU city. Love it! I've been several times and would go back again. We've stayed HERE and HERE, as well as an AC Hotel, in an area that I wouldn't recommend. We got an incredible deal on a suite at the Melia, which was an awesome hotel. The location isn't near the city-center, but it is near the beach, which I enjoyed. The Marriott was a prime location, just steps from the city center and super close to the Ramblas.

We loved just walking around the city, the Ramblas and places like THIS market. It's incredible! It may be different in the winter, but we very much enjoyed the beach and marina area in Barcelona. There is a lot to see and do there, and tons of great seafood restaurants. In fact, Barcelona is probably my most favorite food city. Really, we just spent a lot of time, lounging at cafes, drinking great coffee or wine, and eating lots and lots of jamon iberico.

We also took a tour of Camp Nou, the Barcelona soccer complex, which H enjoyed. It's interesting how different each country experiences sports. It was particularly striking because this same trip we also toured a stadium in Casablanca, Morocco, which couldn't have been any more different than Camp Nou.

Paris: It's definitely more spread out than other EU cities, so we had a hard time finding a hotel. In the end, we stayed HERE, which was fine but really, really touristy. One benefit though was that there were several grocery stores nearby, which is where we got a lot of our wine and meals. Plus, we typically don't pack toiletries and pick them up when we get to our destination, so this was helpful. Decent wine is cheap in Paris! We bought several bottles which we then were able to transport to the other countries we visited.

I think my favorite area in Paris was the Champs des Elysees from the beginning to end, and the surrounding areas with lots of charming homes, restaurants and shops on the side streets. Be sure to visit Loudree!

The Seine river walk was also really cool. When we were there in May, the bridges with locks were still up (there are many of them!), but I've read since that they're talking them down. We liked the street vendors and art shops, and cafes in the Notre Dame area. There was also a neat bread festival happening when we where there. Before trips, we always look to see if there is anything local like this happening, and make going a priority (for example, we love St. Anthony's Feast in Boston!)

I will say that Paris is the most touristy place I've ever been and the place where I probably felt the most unsafe. There are a lot of issues related to illegal immigration, discrimination and anti-Islamic sentiment, and terrorism is a real threat there. They talked about it in the UK, but in Paris you could literally feel it. Don't let it stop you, but just be aware.

A few miscellaneous tips: Always be sure to have a fair amount of coinage on you in different amounts. Toilets in the EU are paid, and they don't always take the same coin even in the same city.

I've never had any restaurants just bring me bottled water without asking, but I have had them try to bring bread. Before setting it down, I tell them no, we don't want it. In most countries it's an additional charge.

And I agree with @Hoffse, I'd take trains versus fly, especially between London and Paris. The Eurostar is a pretty cool experience and while not necessarily cheaper, might actually be less time once you calculate travel to/from the airport (both in London and Paris the primary hubs are pretty far out of the city) and time to check-in and wait, a train might actually take less time.

bmo88 · August 2015

hoffse als1982:

Thank you for the helpful responses! Definitely some things to look into. We have considered train travel and will do it within countries, but to get between countries, it doesn't seem to make sense. Many of the train trips would be 10-12 hours and cost almost twice the price. We are "packing light" and will have a Cabin Max bag (small enough to carry on free) and when I added up the fares, it came to $500 for flights versus $890 for a Eurorail Regional Pass. We will have to make our way to some of them outside the city, but it still comes out to less for price/time.

We plan to use a train between Venice and Rome because it makes sense and is only $11 per person. I am still researching train options, but I haven't found too many that make sense in terms of price and time.

hoffse · August 2015

Sorry, to clarify on the water - they won't just bring you water, but if you order water you need to specify tap. Otherwise they'll bring you bottled and charge for it.

I should have mentioned that art, museums, and churches are obviously a huge priority for us, so that's where my recommendations come from. But everybody has different interests, and different travel speeds, and you'll need to tailor the trip based on that. Is this your first time over there? If so, you may not know if you are "cathedral people" or "market people" or whatnot. I'd pick several different kinds of things and see what you get into. You might be surprised by how much you do or don't like Roman ruins, for instance.

If you do go see the really big tourist attractions in each city - and you probably will because most tourists see at least some of them - the name of the game is crowd control. If you plan to see either Westminster Abbey or the Tower of London, I would make a point to be at those places as they open. For the Tower, make a beeline to the crown jewels (they are about as far from the entrance as you can get), visit those first, and then work your way towards the front again. We used this strategy in August, and we had the crown jewels all to ourselves.... by the time we left there were probably 500 people in line to buy tickets. It was madness. We made the mistake of not being at Westminster when it opened, and we could barely breathe from the crowds. Obviously I'm a huge cathedral/church person. We visited 9 while in London. Westminster Abbey was my least favorite, but I blame the awful crowds. I'll second the recommendation to see a show while you're there. We also toured Parliament, which was an unexpected highlight. It was a very cool tour and you get to go to floor of the house of commons and house of lords.

In Rome, the crowds are going to gather for the Colosseum (actually my least favorite attraction out of the dozens I have visited there) and the Vatican Museum. I would stand in rain, sleet, or snow to be first in line for the Vatican Museum, but I'm an art person. Their collection is extraordinary. The other artistic gems in Rome are the Capitoline Museum and the Borghese Collection (primarily sculpture). Both are fantastic if you are into that, and neither will have bad crowds. Otherwise, the rest of the city's really famous art tends to be inside churches that are free to visit and attract very few tourists. As you can see from @als's post, people tend to love or hate Rome. I love everything about it, but it's not to everybody's taste.

In Paris, we nearly got speared with the selfie sticks all over the Louvre. It was ridiculous. I agree with @als that Paris has the craziest crowds I've ever seen. Many many in tour groups, all of whom were trying to take selfies at the same time. The Eiffel Tower was insane, and the lines were a couple hours long to buy tickets. We didn't bother. The museum passes let us skip lines everywhere else, but places were still packed. Without the passes, we would have been in lines for hours. By far the coolest thing we did in Paris was to be at the Sainte-Chapelle when it opened. We made it in first, and we had the stained glass windows all to ourselves for about 5 minutes before the next person got there. It has the best gothic windows in the world, and for us it was worth flying all the way over there just to see that.

I didn't feel threatened in Paris, but the street vendors can be pretty damn aggressive. You and your H need to practice your "F off" look if you want to get through them without being harassed. They're all over the Eiffel Tower, Louvre, Sacre Coeur, etc. Don't make eye contact and walk purposefully. If a vendor or beggar gets in your face or grabs you, put a firm hand in their face. Don't talk to them, don't make eye contact, and keep walking. Other than the hand in their face, don't acknowledge that they are even there. It feels incredibly rude, but you have to be able to do this, and they will always back off. When you engage them, they will follow you for blocks and pester you for money (BTDT).

In Paris, Rome, and Barcelona in particular, make sure to have a money belt and only carry small amounts of money on you at any given time. Those places in particular are havens for pickpockets. Don't put down your valuables anywhere, and keep an eye on your luggage at all times. Pickpockets tend to congregate around the big tourist attractions and also in transportation hubs. Your physical person is a lot safer in Europe than in the US, but your valuables are probably more at risk. Just take precautions, and you'll be able to enjoy yourselves without having to worry about having your trip ruined by theft. For the really important stuff, my H has one of these, and it works great:

http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Creek-Blocker-Hidden-Pocket/dp/B00BYFAIH0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1439134930&sr=8-1&keywords=eagle+creek+pocket

Our passports, extra cards, and extra cash all fit inside. He just has to remember to wear a belt for it to work.

hoffse · August 2015

Which airports are you flying into and out of? There will probably be some flying required since you're going to Italy, but with airport lead-time, security checks, and zero legroom... trains win if the itinerary works. You could do London - Paris (~2 hrs), Paris - Frankfurt (~4 hrs), Frankfurt - Munich (~3 hrs), fly to Venice, then Venice to Rome (~4 hrs), fly to Barcelona, fly home. That's just an example.

Eurorail is usually a poor deal. They buy passes at the most expensive price point and bundle them for you, hence the cost. You have to be doing a lot of train hopping to get good value from their passes or else you just value the convenience of essentially having a hop-on/hop-off train pass. To get the best prices on trains check the websites of the train companies themselves or 3rd party sellers for that country and buy single tickets from point to point. Research how early trains open and book as early as possible. I usually check prices for tomorrow and then prices for 3 months from now when seeing what the cost difference is. It's often a huge savings to book early.

Eurostar:

http://www.eurostar.com/us-en

France:

https://www.capitainetrain.com/en

UK:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

Germany:

http://www.bahn.de/p_en/view/index.shtml

Italy:

http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=4ddd1a035296f310VgnVCM1000005817f90aRCRD

Spain:

http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/

bmo88 · August 2015

hoffse:

Our current plan is to fly into Denver-London, then Paris-Denver via Iceland Air. I tried to fly out of Barcelona and it wasn't an option. Other airlines offer it, but it's $200-$400 more per ticket.

So our plan is:

Fly Denver to London via Iceland (1 day stopover)

London (2.5 days)

Fly to Berlin (change from above) for $90 both of us via Easyjet

Berlin for 4 days

Fly Berlin to Venice for $85 for both us via Easyjet

Venice for 2.5 days
Train to Florence (1 day)
Train to Rome--stay for 3 days

Fly Rome to Barcelona for $98 for both of us via Easyjet

Barcelona for 3 days

Fly to Barcelona to Paris for $60 for both of us via Easyjet

Paris for 3 days

Fly Paris to Denver

Thanks for the links to train options. I will look into them and see if trains are a better choice.

als1982 · August 2015

I agree with @hoffse, I'd take trains even if only for comfort and convenience. You are going to be so sick of airports, security lines, long waits and delays, and being crammed next to smelly strangers. You'll have so much more personal space on a train, likely free wifi, less restrictions on what you can pack, plus you'll at least be able to see the scenery going from country to country. Even if you pay less in ticket costs, you will likely make up any difference in cab fares getting to/from the airport. Heathrow was more than 45 minutes and nearly $75 by cab from our hotel at 7:00 am. And even if you're thrifty, I can promise there will be some times where a cab, while more expensive than other options, is worth it.

hoffse · August 2015

Yeah those distances are pretty long by train. Have you committed to those cities? How likely are you to return to Europe? You could do a really cool northern Europe itinerary this time and save Italy/Spain for a southern itinerary on a later trip.

Flying into London, you could visit Brussels/Bruges, Amsterdam, western and southern Germany for the markets (Cologne, Nuremberg, Munich, etc.) and Switzerland before going to Paris. I would also probably add a day to London because there's so much to see there, and you'll be jetlagged when you arrive. Anyway, something like that would be a reasonable path using trains, and it sounds like a magical trip that time of year! You would also get to see some smaller cities/towns that way. I'd be curious to hear what @als has to say about that, but H and I have developed a strong preference toward smaller or mid-sized places, vs. the huge cities.

Sorry we keep going back to this. It's just that the logistics are easy to put on paper but a lot harder to implement. Those cities are all pretty far apart from one another, and there's just too much to see in a single European trip anyway. You'll have to come back regardless, so might as well make it easier on yourself with how you travel! I usually start based on where I can get inexpensive or points flights (which you have done), and then we build an itinerary around what makes sense geographically.

Xstatic3333 · August 2015

I'm enjoying reading all of these tips as we plan our own, albeit much shorter, European trip for March! We're going to Amsterdam primarily, but will probably spend two nights in Belgium which is a short train ride away.

We have definitely decided to book an Air BnB for the week (perhaps losing a night or two when we jet over to Belgium, but saving the hassle of moving our large bags.) I have a good friend who does a lot of business travel to Amsterdam who has agreed to help us find a good location. A question I'd love to ask the more experienced travelers is how far in advance a week's rental on Air BnB should be booked. You have to pay upfront, which means a little saving is required, but it looks like we can get a nice studio for the week for only around $600 USD. We don't tend to splurge on accommodation (so we can splurge on FOOD instead!) but want some place safe, clean, and convenient.

Amsterdam is a very expensive city, but our plans to save money include:

-Cook breakfast and many lunches in our studio.

-Take the slower of the two train options to Belgium (which also could allow us a day in Antwerp on our way back from Brussels) and research heavily the best time to buy tickets.

-Time our night in Brussels for a weekend. We learned that hotels near the city center are much cheaper on weekends because the city sees a lot of business travel. This is worth looking into for any of the cities you may be visiting.

-Splurge on a couple of nice meals, but do a lot of research first to decide where those splurges should occur.

-Mainly explore on our own versus signing up for guided tours.

-Take all the good tips in travel threads here to heart!

One cool thing I learned about Amsterdam in comparison to other European cities is that the airport is close to the city center, and it is not that expensive to get from the airport to wherever you are staying. That gives the city a big advantage if you're moving around mostly by air.

Have fun planning! I'm pretty overwhelmed just planning our one week, so a few weeks like you have must feel like a pretty big task. I'm sure it will be amazing and worth the money and effort, however.

hoffse · August 2015

Not to hijack, but for Xstatic - as far as booking in advance, I would do it as soon as you know it's what you want. Don't be afraid to ask questions though and take your time confirming you like the owner and are comfortable sending them money. If they want you to wire money, I would find other accommodations - you should be able to pay by CC to protect yourself.

if you are renting an apartment, get on google maps and make sure there is a grocery store nearby. The bigger the better. We discovered the SuperU in France. That place was awesome.

On your first day, take a quick inventory of the apartment. Hopefully it will have staples like spices, sugar, oil, etc. You might even ask the owner if they keep those items stocked for guests before you book. We made a run to the SuperU for coffee, cream, and butter for breakfasts as well as some pasta, pesto, salad, and salad dressing for dinners. We found that we ate out for lunch (often cheap street food) while we were sight-seeing, and we always picked up a baguette and pastries in the morning. That was only a couple euros per day, and we could go to the bakery while the coffee was brewing. We didn't have the energy for the long French dinners some nights, so that's when we had the pasta in, often paired with the baguette or topped with sausage or shrimp we had picked up in the market that day. And wine of course... We loved having the apartment, and if you are basing yourself in one primary place for the week, that's the way to go.

We also had to buy paper towels and some extra laundry detergent. Make sure to check on things like A/C if you might need it, whether towels are provided, washing machine availability, drying rack, etc. If you plan it right, you can go with about 4 days of clothes and just plan to do laundry halfway through. That means you could go with carry-ons only.

I don't think I would take the slow train to Belgium unless you do plan to stop in Antwerp. Your time is so valuable over there that I think it's worth paying for the quickest/most direct route from point A to point B, even if it costs more. Or maybe compromise and take the fast train one direction and the slower train the other direction when you hop off to see Antwerp. Trains really aren't that expensive if you book early enough out. The more H and I have done this, the more we are willing to pay for convenience when it comes to the logistics. We will pay more for a direct flight, or a faster train, or a cab from the airport when we are jetlagged, toting luggage, and can't speak the local language. You shouldn't have to work too hard to get where you are going when you are on vacation.

If you don't want to haul bags to Belgium, paying for an extra night in Amsterdam that you aren't going to use could work. We've done that before. Alternatively, you might store your luggage at the train station in Amsterdam if you are going to be departing and arriving at the same place. Many European train stations have luggage lockers - you would need to check, but I would be surprised if Amsterdam Centraal didn't have lockers. Again though, that gets into a logistics thing, and it might be worth paying for the extra night to save the packing, unpacking, and repacking it would involve. That would be a close call for me given the prices you've been quoted for the rental.

If you decide to go to Brussels and have questions, let me know. H is Belgian and has been there 6 or 7 times. At minimum, he would tell you that you need to order street fries and make sure to get mayonnaise to go with them

He also has some favorite chocolate, beer, cheese, etc. from over there, especially the stuff that's made in the monasteries. For places to visit, he likes Bruges and Ghent a lot more than Brussels, but you can't beat Brussels for a convenient base to see other places in Belgium. H likes to spend evenings in Brussels, but take day trips elsewhere.

bmo88 · August 2015

Thanks for the feedback! We have rethought the trip a bit and did some more research. We decided to cut out Germany (I lived there before and DH isn't stoked to go).

So our new plans:

Den-->London

London for 3 days

London-->Paris by train

Paris for 4 days

Paris-->Milan by train

Milan for 2 days

Milan-->Florence by train

Florence for 2 days

Florence-->Rome

Rome for 3 days

Rome-->Barcelona by plane

Barcelona/surrounding for 5 days

Barcelona-->Denver

So we cut down the flights to only doing Rome to Barcelona, which we are comfortable with since it doesn't make sense to do a train that far.

Now, we need to decide between a day train from Paris to Milan which is 7 hours and $135 per person versus a night time train which is $90 per person. We are leaning toward the over nighter, though I am not sure how comfy the train will be.

Xstatic3333 · August 2015

@bmo88 I was just doing some morning travel research (H goes to work crazy early, leaving me awake with time to kill) and found a great FAQ page about European train booking. I noticed they have a page about overnight trains; if I were you I'd go for it to save the daytime hours. I found the videos helpful too.

http://www.raileurope.com/rail-help/how-to/watch-our-informative-videos.html

@hoffse thanks for the tips! I'll shoot you a PM closer to our trip. We are going to Brussels, because we want to get to the Cantillon brewery. We also may want to get to Duvel, which seems to be a 45 min. bus ride away. I'm undecided about Brugges, because I've read a lot of complaints that it's too touristy, but it's good to hear the positive side as well.

hoffse · August 2015

That sounds MUCH better to me! Trains are just easy, and there's a lot to be said for their flexibility and the space.

Re: overnight train.... I've looked at these before and haven't taken one yet. Lots of people do take them though! Read www.seat61.com to see what the train is like on that route. There are some routes where I would just not do it, either because of the privacy issue or because of safety. IIRC some routes in eastern Europe seem particularly prone to theft from what I've read online. But for routes where you can get a 2-person room with a door that locks... yeah, you could convince me if only because it saves a night in a hotel and adds a day sight-seeing. I wouldn't do it just to save money though. I think you would have to expect that you will get minimal sleep.

I'm not sure where you would necessarily steal a day from, but you could also go to Nice for a day or two to break up the long train ride. It's kind of the halfway point between Paris and Milan. We didn't make it that far south our most recent trip, but we're already planning to go back and see that part. It looks incredible.

Otherwise, I'd just make a point to take an early train that day and bring breakfast and lunch with you on the train. 7 or so hours really isn't that bad if you leave early enough, and you could be in Milan by mid-afternoon. Plenty of time to take a nap in transit if you need to recharge a bit.

als1982 · August 2015

@Hoffse has a great suggestion with Nice. I loved it there, plus Monaco is just 45 minutes away by bus. A day or two split between both is plenty. Even if it means adding back in one flight, I'd do this over Florence. Florence was okay, but again mostly churches and lots of shopping (if I remember correctly), again both of which are not my thing. And Pisa, which is nearby is pretty much just tourists taking cheesy selfies.

als1982 · August 2015

Good luck @Xstatic3333! Those are places I've never been but are definitely on my list.

hoffse · August 2015

I didn't love Florence either. Obviously I'm art person, but I don't enjoy Italian Renaissance art. If you do, then you need to go there for at least a day to see the Uffizi, the Duomo, and the Academy. Otherwise.... it was a lot like being in Epcot TBH. Beautiful, but almost too squeaky clean and perfectly geared up to cater to tourists. I remember thinking that the Florentines spoke better English than I did.

Rome is kind of the opposite - parts of it are actually pretty gritty. It feels like it's really be lived in for the last 2,000 years. That's a big reason why I like it, actually - it's not at all pristine when compared to Florence. Somehow that felt more authentic.

I think this is when you have to make decisions based on your own interests. I'm glad I spent a day in Florence. I did see the Uffizi and some other famous stuff, but I will probably not go back. I have no desire to ever go to Pisa.

By far the coolest thing we did from Rome was take a day trip to Pompeii. It takes a full day, and it's long - you go to Naples, which is a couple hrs from Rome and then you get on board the "circovesuvio" regional train to get to the archaeological site. It took probably 3 hours to get there from Rome in total, and the countryside on the way down looked pretty grim. But holy moly. Once we were there, it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. When I was there it also cost exactly the same to visit the entire town of Pompeii as it cost to visit the Colosseum. Pompeii was about 1000x cooler. My only regret is I didn't also see Herculaneum while we were there. Must go back!

Erikan73 · August 2015

The Rick Steves books are great & will put you into great places. You won't find the fast food options like you do in the states. What we did while traveling in Germany & Austria is to find a local deli shop, many of them will make you a sandwich to order. Then we would buy a beverage (often also available at the deli store or another store nearby) and that would be our lunch.

While in Germany, try to hit the Christmas Markets, I've heard they are amazing!!!

als1982 · August 2015

Erikan73 said:
The Rick Steves books are great & will put you into great places. You won't find the fast food options like you do in the states. What we did while traveling in Germany & Austria is to find a local deli shop, many of them will make you a sandwich to order. Then we would buy a beverage (often also available at the deli store or another store nearby) and that would be our lunch.
While in Germany, try to hit the Christmas Markets, I've heard they are amazing!!!

When is the last time you've traveled internationally? There is fast food every where! McDonald's in the EU even have their own fancy coffee shops. We don't eat there - but we like to go into them just to see the differences in the menus from the states. Most often they're regional, but in London the menu was identical to here at home. They also have kiosks from which you can order in addition to the regular counter. KFC and subway are also pretty big brands there, and of course, Starbucks. Again, not advocating anyone eat this stuff but it is globally available.

hoffse · August 2015

Yeah there was totally a KFC in southern France that we would drive by going into and out of Avignon. They also had Office Depot for some strange reason. Most of the Champs Elysees is now American chains - there's a McDonald's on the Champs Elysees. They were doing a roaring business when we walked by.

One good thing about scoping out the American fast food chains is you have a better chance of encountering a free bathroom there than other places. Rome has at least 4 McDonald's in different parts of the city. I never ate at one, but I did wind up in all of them at one point or another...

Read tripadvisor forums in addition to Rick Steves. For better or worse, his is the travel guide that most Americans seem to use so you tend to see people with those blue books all clustered in the same place. I think it's great that he's gotten Americans to travel, but his "secret" places aren't so secret anymore.

TA will also have real time info that no travel guide will have. Their forums are pretty snarky (I personally don't ask questions on them), but they're super informative when you need to know about a strike or something. The people on them also stay current with things like prices and train schedules. The week before we left I started reading reports about a theft ring at the Avignon train station and what the scam was. We actually saw them in action, but they didn't get our stuff because I had read about it on TA.

Erikan73 · August 2015

als1982 said:

The Rick Steves books are great & will put you into great places. You won't find the fast food options like you do in the states. What we did while traveling in Germany & Austria is to find a local deli shop, many of them will make you a sandwich to order. Then we would buy a beverage (often also available at the deli store or another store nearby) and that would be our lunch.
While in Germany, try to hit the Christmas Markets, I've heard they are amazing!!!
When is the last time you've traveled internationally? There is fast food every where! McDonald's in the EU even have their own fancy coffee shops. We don't eat there - but we like to go into them just to see the differences in the menus from the states. Most often they're regional, but in London the menu was identical to here at home. They also have kiosks from which you can order in addition to the regular counter. KFC and subway are also pretty big brands there, and of course, Starbucks. Again, not advocating anyone eat this stuff but it is globally available.

Actually in the towns my relatives live in, they are so remote, they don't have any fast food places in their towns, only regular resturants. My mothers side of the family, the nearest Buger King is 45 minutes away. The town my dad's family lives, only has a population of 700 people, which includes all the residents of the nursing home. When I stayed in Eurpose we stayed outside of the major cities in B&B because it was less expensive, and once you start getting into the countryside, the fast food options aren't what they are in the big city

Europe 2015! Travel and money saving tips appreciated!

Re: Europe 2015! Travel and money saving tips appreciated!

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