TTMA Atlanta

lbonga1 · March 2016

Anyone live in the Atlanta area? I was contacted by a recruiter this morning, and I hadn't previously considered it as an option for where we'd be willing to relocate to. I don't know if I'd want to stay more than a few years, so I don't know if it'd be worth it to move across the country for that. Can anyone tell me about the cost of living, rental market, etc.?

labro · March 2016

Current resident speaking, although now I live pretty north of the city. Is the job IN Atlanta or somewhere in the surrounding area? That makes a bit of a difference in my response.

Cost of living is low unless you're in the city. It's not HIGH in comparison to a place like NYC or San Francisco....but in a place like Midtown (heart of Atlanta) a one bedroom, 600 sq foot apartment will run you around $2000 a month. Granted, they are usually nice complexes in nice, safe, areas, but that's the average. My experience renting apartments around the northern Atlanta metro period is it's kind of expensive. Renting a house can actually be comparable and get you more space. Our prices on fuel are excellent, food is pretty decent too.

Traffic is horrendous. I don't know where you would move here from, but we're on par with cities like LA. There's not a decent public transit system in place unless you live ITP (inside the perimeter of I-285 which is the interstate that circles Atlanta).

I don't want to make it a bunch of negatives though.

We're less than 6 hours from the nearest beach (either south towards Florida or east towards the Georgia coastline). The climate is GREAT! We have some winter but it's not bad...and you're practically guaranteed a week off of work if we get an ice storm.

I don't mind the heat and humidity to be honest. It can be bad in August/September but I feel like in general summers are tolerable and our fall and spring seasons are gorgeous! Atlanta is very close to the Appalachian foothills - lots of great hiking, waterfalls, some up and coming wineries. The city of Atlanta has a lot of great local breweries (Sweetwater being the biggest). Pretty decent food culture as well. The city has a lot of other cultural things to do - we have a great art museum, a nice symphony, the Braves baseball team is opening a new stadium in 2017, and I think the new Falcons football stadium is opening this year. We're getting a MLS soccer team in 2017 as well.

To be more practical - what is the job? Is the salary worth the move to you? Do you have any kids? We have some really excellent school systems but it depends on the county and sometimes the particular area in a county.

hoffse · March 2016

H grew up there and still has a lot of family there. We visit frequently. I grew up about 90 minutes north of the perimeter.

You are currently in California, correct? COL in Atlanta is significantly lower. Housing is cheaper, gas is cheaper, groceries are cheaper - everything is cheaper. Whenever my dad visits his family in California he always picks up one of those real estate ads and literally laughs at loud at the difference in housing prices. I would not consider Atlanta to be a HCOL area. It's MCOL at the most.

It's also a major metropolitan area, so you have all your pro sport teams, a huge airport, all the major national brands for shopping, etc. Those are the pros.

The cons are the commute. Atlanta traffic is no joke, and it's the single biggest reason H and I won't move back there. The 75/85 merge is like 16 lanes of traffic I think. I can't remember offhand.

My biggest piece of advice for anybody looking to move there is to find out the location of your workplace and see where it is relative to good housing. You also need to learn the difference between ITP and OTP - which stands for inside the perimeter and outside the perimeter. Being OTP on the north side usually means nicer housing (with a few key exceptions), but it also means you might be merging onto multiple interstates, and that's going to make your commute longer if you work in midtown or downtown. ITP tends to be more transitional, but there are still some nice/cute areas, and the condo market is pretty strong there. If H and I ever do move there, we will probably live ITP and buy a condo. Both of our firms have offices in midtown, and I don't want a 45-60 minute commute each direction.

Atlanta does not have good public transport. MARTA is a joke and actually kind of dangerous for a solo female. I would never ride it without H, and we would not ride it together into certain areas. MARTA also doesn't extend to the nicer suburbs.

Other things you should know....

Atlanta is hot and humid. Steamy, actually. You can literally fry an egg on the pavement during the hottest part of summer. If you are coming from California weather, you'll probably melt your first summer. You get used to it though, and we are blessed with very long summers and extremely short winters. Winter runs from end of November to beginning of March at the very longest. Screened porches are definitely a thing in this part of the country because our warm season is really long.

Most of the people I know use private schools, unless they are in the nicer suburbs. The private schools are kind of pricey there, but again - nothing like California.

The Atlanta airport is a Delta hub (I wish it was United, but no such luck). It's massive and some years it is the busiest airport in the world. It has a separate terminal for international flights which is really nice, but the domestic terminals are severely crowded.

Atlanta is an easy drive to Charleston, Nashville, Birmingham, Chattanooga, the Gulf, and Savannah. It's a slightly longer (but still very manageable) drive to Orlando.

hoffse · March 2016

A few other financial considerations:

State sales tax is 4%, but municipalities can add on their own tax. I think the highest rate in the state is 8%. There is no state sales tax on groceries.

Income tax is 6%.

Property taxes vary of course, but they are generally much lower than California. I think the average is just under 1% IIRC.

Children of GA residents who maintain a B average can go to any public college in the state tuition-free. This includes UGA and GA Tech. Free tuition at GA Tech is one of the best deals in the country IMO because it's a fantastic school.

labro · March 2016

hoffse said:

A few other financial considerations:

State sales tax is 4%, but municipalities can add on their own tax. I think the highest rate in the state is 8%. There is no state sales tax on groceries.

Income tax is 6%.

Property taxes vary of course, but they are generally much lower than California. I think the average is just under 1% IIRC.

Children of GA residents who maintain a B average can go to any public college in the state tuition-free. This includes UGA and GA Tech. Free tuition at GA Tech is one of the best deals in the country IMO because it's a fantastic school.

The average sales tax in the area is around 7%, inside of Atlanta you get an extra 1% tax added so there's your 8% tax rate.

HOPE - the free tuition @hoffse refers to, also supports the Georgia pre-k program so free funding for kids. That is if you opt to not send your kid to a private pre-k, but it's there at least.

I personally think MARTA is fine during normal commuter hours. I used it before I switched jobs. I took the bus to the train station and then the train to the stop closet to my office every day and never had an issue other than some people with overly loud music. Safety concerns as a solo female come into play at other times and really in particular areas more than as a whole across the board issue.

Crime is an issue in any city, but again it comes down to where you are and when...although there are some areas I wouldn't go to at any time of day, but I don't feel like they are common major office locations.

My goal tends to be to live as close to work as I can while taking into account the local schools, the home values, and neighborhood quality. My 12 mile commute takes me an hour during the school year and closer to 35-40 minutes in the summer in the mornings and around 45 minutes to 1 hr in the evenings depending on if I leave the office 5 minutes after 5 or 5 minutes before 5. It's one of the reasons we're thinking of selling our home and trying to get closer to work. Even though gas is cheap, the amount of time we spend in our car just isn't worth it anymore...and our 45 min-1hr long commute is NOTHING compared to many people who live in our area.

The airport is a great pull. It's easy to get affordable long-haul domestic and international flights to pretty much any major destination.

Rental wise - I'd really look for a home or large condo if you have a family. My friend with two children had a hard time finding apartments with more than 3 bedrooms so there was no space for a home office for her or her husband (she's an independent artist and author so office space is a big priority for her). Since you're coming from California, everything is going to look extremely affordable and cheap!

hoffse · March 2016

I also don't want to sound negative about the weather or commute. The location of your workplace is the real consideration with respect to the commute. If it's well-located, Atlanta is a fantastic place to live. Like PP said, it has a great art scene, music scene, food scene, etc.

H and I wouldn't move there only because all the big law firms are in midtown or downtown, and that would almost guarantee a huge commute for us or condo living. Neither is super appealing to us. Also, his family is a teeny bit intrusive, and we like being a couple hours away.

With respect to weather, personally, I love hot weather. Nashville was too cold for me. Birmingham is slightly too cold for me in the winter. I would love to move to Miami and never have winter again. I really love hot weather, I just know that a lot of newcomers are shocked by it their first summer. I guess in other parts of the country it cools off significantly at night during August and September.... but that doesn't really happen in Atlanta, lol

On the flip side, I had literally never heard of winter tires before joining this board. I had no idea that was actually a thing.

I'll echo PP and put in a plug for North Georgia (where I was born!) - it's gorgeous. The Appalachians are beautiful. Lots of hiking, lakes, fishing, etc.

hoffse · March 2016

I'll defer to @labro on MARTA. I have to admit, I was robbed the one time I rode it (in daylight!), and I swore I would never ride it again.

That's not necessarily rational though.

It is different than what you get in NYC or DC though where it's people's primary means of transport. In Atlanta, the car is the primary means of transport.

short+sassy · March 2016

As a former So. CA gal myself who moved South, I wanted to chime in a bit. I can't speak to what it is like to live in (around) Atlanta specifically, but I have visited a couple times. It's a really neat city with a lot to do and amazing restaurants. The impression I got on traffic was "its slightly better than LA, and about the same as OC." However, definitely take that with a grain of salt as I've never lived/worked there.

Like the other PPs pointed out, the weather isn't as good as where you are from. It's colder in the winter, though still a mild winter as compared to the North, and it is hellishly hot in the summer. That first summer will be a huge shock, especially if you have never experienced humidity. I personally become a hermit crab and stay indoors as much as I can. Scuttling from a/c to a/c. But you do learn to live with it.

I'll list some cultural differences I've found in NOLA vs. CA, which might also exist for Atlanta, but I suspect to a lesser extent. Everything is at a slower pace. When I first moved here, I had to make a mental effort to slow my speech down or sometimes people had trouble understanding me. Making sweeping comparisons here, but (CA=super friendly retail personnel, meeting new people socially is a bit cold and formal) and (NOLA=huge lack of customer service, but people are super friendly socially).

It's also very refreshing, and this is true for what I saw of Atlanta also, that houses are unique looking versus the "Stepford Wives-like subdivisions" of CA with 300 houses that look almost identical. "Do you want your fake stucco off white or pale pink?" Creepy. Though the relatively cheaper option in a very HCOL area, so I can't blame anyone.

I feel like there should be more. I'll think on that. Ha, ha! There is a lot more, but I think they are only NOLA-specific.

lbonga1 · March 2016

Well, I got home and FI gave me a serious side-eye about it, so I guess that's out lol! But the recruiter didn't email me with the job listing either after I told him what my compensation requirements would be, so it probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway.

FI pretty much wants to live on a farm, but he realizes there's not really any opportunities in software engineering in farm-y areas, so I think we've narrowed it down to the Bay Area, Seattle, or Denver/Boulder for places we'd be willing to move. Ironically neither of us want to stay in So.Cal. We'd be very concerned for our kids if we were to stay here because Orange County has the worst teen heroine/pill problem in the country, and we don't think the attitude of the people who live here is the best.

hoffse · March 2016

Ah that's too bad.

I get side-eyed all the time by extended family for choosing to live in B'ham, because the rest of the country thinks it's stuck in the 60's. I have literally had people ask me if we have running water here (not even joking).

Here's a secret: it's actually pretty great. People are friendly, the pace of life is slower, we have extensive parks and outdoor activities, people are genuinely happy here. I have a 10 minute commute to work, and our public schools are better than the private ones.

We have a lot of turn-of-the-century homes with those huge Southern front porches. Seriously, they are like Gone With the Wind. I drool over them. The crazy part is they are actually affordable! I'll take it.

I don't care if my extended family think I'm crazy. Truth is, I kind of think they're crazy, so at least the feeling is mutual, lol.

Atlanta is a lot more fast-paced than either B'ham or NOLA. I think it's lost a lot of the southern charm that the other two cities have maintained, as it's gotten so huge. I'm worried Nashville is going to go the same direction... Nashville is my other love.

Sad to hear y'all aren't joining us - let us know if you change your mind!

short+sassy · March 2016

You all might want to look at the big cities in Texas. Way lower cost of the living than your current location and the other cities you mentioned. Yet, wages and economies are good, overall.

In fact, I have a very good friend who swore she would never leave CA and thought I was so nuts to leave, is now seriously considering moving to TX.

csuave · March 2016

I'll put in a plug for Pittsburgh. You'd be surprised at the tech industry here. Google set up shop years ago to take advantage of Carnegie Mellon talent and others have followed suit.

Farm type areas are probably about an hour out of the city.

als1982 · March 2016

Agree with the above. H is in the tech field for a consulting company in Kansas City. Most of his clients are in Silicon Valley or headquartered on the East Coast. He gets inquiries all the time from companies across the country and we've agreed it would take a salary of at least $400,000 to get us to move. We have everything here at a fraction of the cost!!

julieanne912 · March 2016

lbonga1 said:

Well, I got home and FI gave me a serious side-eye about it, so I guess that's out lol! But the recruiter didn't email me with the job listing either after I told him what my compensation requirements would be, so it probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway.

FI pretty much wants to live on a farm, but he realizes there's not really any opportunities in software engineering in farm-y areas, so I think we've narrowed it down to the Bay Area, Seattle, or Denver/Boulder for places we'd be willing to move. Ironically neither of us want to stay in So.Cal. We'd be very concerned for our kids if we were to stay here because Orange County has the worst teen heroine/pill problem in the country, and we don't think the attitude of the people who live here is the best.

If it helps, we live about a half hour from Boulder, on an acre, and our house was under 500k. Actual mini-farms or larger horse properties will run you more into the mid 500s on up, especially if you want to stay relatively close to the city.

labro · March 2016

Aw I'm sorry your FI gave you the side eye! Hopefully you find another opportunity here again that better fits your needs! I live in what's known as the Silicon Valley of the South! It's a Northern Atlanta burb but it's filled with tons of major data centers and other large IT related companies. It's a big employer for a lot of people in my area and it results in a higher than average median salary, better schools, super nice neighborhoods, etc.

@hoffse Yikes!! If I was robbed on MARTA I'd definitely have different feelings too!! I'm glad I've never had a bad experience but obviously it's not unheard of. I wish Atlanta had maintained more of the feel like B'ham. Even the area I live in used to be a ton of horse farms and it's rapidly changing...although some of the local cities have worked really hard to develop a master plan that preserves that country feel since so many residents still desire it (and a lot of the corporations coming here do too). Other cities...like the one I live in, weren't really prepared for the huge population growth and we have neighborhoods popping up everywhere with cookie cutter homes built right on top of each other and I absolutely cannot stand it!

lbonga1 · March 2016

@julieanne912, I think Colorado would be my top pick. I loooove the mountains. FI is concerned about the altitude because he has pretty bad asthma, but I think he'd get used it. Google has a location in Boulder, so I'm going to try for a job there when I graduate.

FI's parents want to help us with a downpayment on a house in the somewhat near future, but I think there's a huge IF we'll stay close-by. They were talking about helping us buy something as early as next year, which I think is really unrealistic since I'll barely be halfway through school and have no idea where either of us will be working long-term. I think they also don't realize that many of the tech jobs here are with military/aerospace/defense, and I'm not interested in that.

short+sassy · March 2016

lbonga1 said:

@julieanne912, I think Colorado would be my top pick. I loooove the mountains. FI is concerned about the altitude because he has pretty bad asthma, but I think he'd get used it. Google has a location in Boulder, so I'm going to try for a job there when I graduate.
FI's parents want to help us with a downpayment on a house in the somewhat near future, but I think there's a huge IF we'll stay close-by. They were talking about helping us buy something as early as next year, which I think is really unrealistic since I'll barely be halfway through school and have no idea where either of us will be working long-term. I think they also don't realize that many of the tech jobs here are with military/aerospace/defense, and I'm not interested in that.

That's great your FI's parents plan to help with a down payment! But definitely put off buying a house until you're done with school and you and your FI are settled into an area that you reasonably expect to live in for a good while. The rule of thumb used to be own a home for 5 years, just to break even on your investment. But that can vary greatly, depending on where you buy a home.

bmo88 · March 2016

lbonga1: I have lived in Colorado for the past 19 years and the altitude really isn't that bad (I have asthma too). Most of the state is pretty affordable, with the exception of Denver and Boulder right now. The housing markets are skyrocketing. Though most are not as expensive as California, some areas are just as, if not more expensive.

In general though, cost of living and amenities are great here. We have thought about moving in the past, but are now committed to living in Colorado for the long term.

lbonga1 · March 2016

short+sassy said:

lbonga1 said:

@julieanne912, I think Colorado would be my top pick. I loooove the mountains. FI is concerned about the altitude because he has pretty bad asthma, but I think he'd get used it. Google has a location in Boulder, so I'm going to try for a job there when I graduate.
FI's parents want to help us with a downpayment on a house in the somewhat near future, but I think there's a huge IF we'll stay close-by. They were talking about helping us buy something as early as next year, which I think is really unrealistic since I'll barely be halfway through school and have no idea where either of us will be working long-term. I think they also don't realize that many of the tech jobs here are with military/aerospace/defense, and I'm not interested in that.

That's great your FI's parents plan to help with a down payment! But definitely put off buying a house until you're done with school and you and your FI are settled into an area that you reasonably expect to live in for a good while. The rule of thumb used to be own a home for 5 years, just to break even on your investment. But that can vary greatly, depending on where you buy a home.

We're going to have to talk to them about it more. If they are really insistent on helping to get us into a house next year, then I'm going to be really insistent on keeping it as a rental when we move out lol. FI's dad is being stubborn about us staying here, even though we've been trying to explain to him why it might not be a good idea. We'll see what happens when I'm further through school.

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