June 2009 Weddings
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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: Up for debate?
30 years ago they weren't given kids as many vaccines as they are now.
Jessnjason, I'm getting ready for work and don't have time to read completely through those sites at the moment, but just looking at where the information comes from, all of those websites are biased. And the second one is just a mess.
If you're going to debate something like this, I know I'm not going to take you seriously if you give me studies commissioned by the organization that WANTS to know a specific answer. I'm not a scientist, I don't know all of the facts here, but in making my decision I prefer to read legitimate studies conducted by a third party.
I know there are legitimate studies out there commissioned by organizations that don't have an agenda, that's probably what you should use to prove your point.
There may not be any concrete evidence of vaccines being linked to autism. But let me say as a parent, when it's your child's welfare and well-being, you are going to pay attention to all sources, no matter if they have scientific research to back them up or not.?
I personally HATE (despise with a passion/abhor etc) taking my perfectly healthy and highly-functioning children to the doc so they can get shot with 'medicine' filled with MERCURY (as in the MMR shot). They are miserable and get fevers after their vaccines, my daughter even gets eczema outbreaks after her vaccines, which is a stress-related condition. That should tell you something. The whole process just completely sucks. It really does.
I do believe in vaccinating obviously, a lot of these shots allow us to live the modern, healthy lives we do now (polio in particular). But because there was a slight chance that the MMR shot may harm my babies, I waited to get that one. I finally gave it my daughter in April when she was over 2 years old (I think you're 'supposed' to get it at 11 months). I wanted to make sure her speech and noticeable growth markers were strongly developed before I put anything in her body that could harm her. In other words, I didn't want to leave anything to chance and have any question in my mind that this shot could have messed her up in some way. My son still has not received it and won't until I am comfortable that he is progressing normally and he has reached his speech milestones. So after 2 years at least.
My docs have all given me the eye rolling "there's no scientific evidence linking MMR to autism etc speech". And you know what I've told them? "That's great, but it's not your kid." You can preach all you want about it, but until you're in that situation, you don't know what you will do or what choice you will make. I personally didn't see the need to inject my infants with mercury before they could even walk (that makes sense how??). They don't go to school yet, we don't hang out in third world countries--I think I have the right to wait and vaccinate my children when I see fit for them as individuals. And for the record, I don't appreciate the "medical community's" outlook on this subject as a whole. They are very condescending about it in general. Jenny M. had valid concerns about her child's condition and I hate that people discount a mother's intuition in favor of "medical research." As a mother, you know when something is wrong or different or "off" with your child. The fact of the matter is that we live in an imperfect medical climate where the focus is more on procedures and 'patching' up rather than prevention. I chose to be more preventative wherever and whenever I can. If that means waiting to vaccinate, so be it.
You both make valid points, without taking into account existing research. yes, autism rates have increased since vaccines have become widespread. But many other environmental factors have also increased. And, as shag said, sometimes an increase in the incidence of a disease can be attributed to emerging medical research, better diagnosing techniques, and changing definitions of a disease (ie, obesity rates skyrocketed because of a change in the definition of obesity {bmi to indicate obesity was dropped}).
Sorry - i'm in an epidemiology class right now and find it all very interesting
Psh, you're no fun! Why start a post called up for debate if you're going to pull the agree to disagree card?!?
I agree with you in that respect, angelfire, when it comes down to it, it should be the mother/person's decision. I just choose how I make my decisions differently, I guess. Even when it came to the flu shot, which puts me at risk, I chose to listen to the experts and get the shots. I appreciate that the shot wasn't forced on me, that's my right, but I did choose to get it.
and FTR, your choice is your choice, but if more and more parents stop vaccinating their children there's going to be problems. Angel, honest question for you (just trying to play devil's advocate here), but what would you do if you chose not to vaccinate your child against something, and by chance they ended up getting whatever it was you didn't vaccinate them against and something horrible happened to them? How would you feel then, as a parent.
Also, I am curious, don't most school districts require at least a Hep A vaccine as well as MMR vaccine to begin school? I know in Massachusetts, they require it.
I have 2 friends who have children and they aren't vaccinating them against anything whatsoever. They firmly believe that all the antibodies the kids needs they will get solely through their breast milk (which they plan on feeding to their children til the age of 2).
My friend's boyfriend got mumps a few months ago and almost died. Apparently there was some outbreak in Ireland and when he went to go visit he happened to catch it, passed it onto his brother who also wasn't vaccinated and he almost died. Seems like something ridiculous to have to deal with rather than just getting a shot when you're younger.
This! I'd like to know how much research has been done around all the crazy growth hormones and steroids put in meat and dairy products...the preservatives that are being added to food left and right these days...artificial sweeteners that parents are giving their children, etc. As Dandy mentioned, environmental factors are not taken into account in any of these studies. The world has changed tremendously from 30 years ago...or even 10 years ago.
An increasing autism rate can't just automatically be connected to vaccines. As Dandy mentioned earlier, as well, (at least I think it was her)...technology has changed as well, so just because they are detecting more cases (and more people are coming forward with kids that show signs)...whose to say they aren't just seeing Jenny McCarthy all over the TV and saying "oh, my kid exhibits those symptoms..." and then going to the dr, where in the past they wouldn't have see her and thought nothing of their kid's symptoms.
All of this rambling can be summed up by...there are entirely too many horses in this race than to do a one to one correlation of vaccines = autism.
I'm in the no (or limited) vaccines camp too.
I have lots and lots to say about this topic, but I really don't see the point in debating it and I have a crapload to do today anyway.
The only thing I'll point out, and really not because I care if you agree or not just because I think it's worth thinking about, if you say that environmental factors (such as what we eat) have increased the risk of autism (and I agree that this likely plays a role), why can't dietary changes reduce symptoms? Also, if medications are essentially chemicals we put into our bodies to cause certain reactions, why can't natural substances that cause the same chemical reactions (like food and vitamins) accomplish that same goal?
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In all honesty when posting I was only thinking of the H1N1/seasonal flu vaccines. I guess I am one that wants to hear all sides but really I don't want to make enemies in the process.
Angelfire: I think that the way you get your kids vaccinated is very smart.
I hope you guys didn't miss my point in the midst of my soapbox speech. I DO vaccinate my children. They are both up to date on their Hep As and everything else. I just held off/am holding off on the MMR shot. I think they do have to have it before the start school which is still at least 1.5 years off for my son; he's only 1.5. My daughter has had it already. I agree that if people stop vaccinating, there will be major problems. I personally am not comfortable having my son injected with a shot full of mercury before he can talk. I want to be sure that he's developed in that area as much as possible before I allow anything that *could* harm him or retard his progression. ?
I also agree with hopscotch and dandy that a lot of preservatives, steroids, antibiotics, chemicals found in our food now probably contribute negatively to our children's growth and health as well. Which is why I buy organic and limit their sugar, don't do sugar-free, stay away from engineered foods etc. as well as chose not to give the MMR shot before I was/am comfortable that their speech and cognitive abilities were/are strongly developed.
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I don't know the full answer to this, but although you doubt the expertise of medical professionals, I'm positive it has been thought of. That is why they are, in fact, experts and not "Experts". We, the general public, know the general concept of mercury, whereas a scientist knows the ins and outs of what makes mercury mercury, different types of mercury, etc. According to this from the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases (which as far as I can tell is just a fact sheet on mercury in vaccines) there is a difference between ethyl mercury and methyl mercury - methyl mercury being the type found in fish. It also looks like mercury is absorbed differently when it is ingested vs. given intramuscular-ly.
I'm not saying what we eat necessarily causes autism or reduces autism symptoms because... no one knows, but Jenny McCarthy, the "leader" of the anti vaccine movement, believes that dietary changes DID cure her son's autism.
K. I'll shut up now. Someone find another way to entertain me today.
I'm not saying that they do, I'm just saying before someone jumps on the "ohhh vaccines cause autism" bandwagon, people should look at the big picture. There haven't been enough studies to prove that they do. There are a million things in the world that change on a year to year basis...trying to say increased use of vaccines cause autism is ridiculous until there is substantial proof that weighs ALL variables including environmental factors, etc. I was just providing a few other things that aren't taken into account...but there are so many more than just what I mentioned. Until I see multiple studies weighing all variables, I think the conclusion is ridiculous.
Also hopping in late here, but I thought maybe I would get over looked in the bashing.
I have taken a flu shot every year for as long as I can remember and have never had the flu. I have also been injected with every vaccine coming and going and haven't died yet. Nor was I autistic or anything like that.
My kids will be getting whatever vaccines they are supposed to when the Dr. says they should. He/She will know a million times more about it than I ever will no matter how much "research" I do about them.
As for the H1N1 vaccine, I won't be getting it, yet that is. I could have taken it a month ago because my DH is an EMT and they were offered it, along with their families. But, I guess I will wait and see what happens with that.
BFP #1: 6.26.12 EDD: 2.11.13 missed m/c: 7.31.12 @ 12 weeks
BFP #2: 10.1.12 EDD: 6.11.12
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Many people in my family are healthcare professionals (i.e. my mom is an RN, best friend a nurse practitioner, my brother is studying to become a DO, my aunt is a cardiologist and my uncle is a cardiologist and dermatologist among other things). Obviously my family puts stock into the medical profession!
However, I am not totally convinced though that doctors know everything and I am quite certain some doctors are better than others. Here are three reasons why?I am hesitant to put the label of 'expert' on a healthcare professional simply because they've completed the necessary schooling.
1) ?doctors misdiagnosed my aunt's ovarian cancer for three years
2) my daughter's first pediatrician told me her hemangioma was a 'bruise' then when I insisted she look at it again 2 weeks later, told me it could be cancer! Uh, ok, it goes from being a bruise to being cancer in 2 weeks??
3) My favorite was when my brother's ex-gf left my 6-month old daughter on the edge of a bed (I was peeing and was literally gone for 30 seconds max), I came out and my daughter was on the floor. She wasn't crying, I knew immediately something was wrong. I was holding her and about 2 minutes later she turned the most horrifying shade of gray then went completely limp in my arms. My mom had to do a heart rub on her to keep her breathing. We were in Dallas for a wedding and I was completely unfamiliar with the area or anything about it. My dad called 911 and the a-hole paramedics got there and told me I was overreacting. I was screaming that she couldn't even keep her eyes open and they told me she was "just tired." UH, ok. She just had a traumatic fall on her head and can't keep her eyes open but it's ok because she's 'just tired.' Right. Finally when we got to the ER, the ER doc realized how serious it was and chastised the paramedics for not preparing them. She had pinpoint pupils for God's sakes! If I was ever close to murdering someone, it would have been that day when they sat there questioning me and told me I was overreacting when my 6-month old was in a coma. I am just saying that in my personal experience, not all medically trained people deserve to be called experts, some are not even really all that knowledgeable to be honest. If I would have listened to the first doc, I would have written off a potentially serious issue with my daughter as a 'bruise." If I would not have insisted that the ambulance take us to the ER, who knows what may have happened to my daughter? She was unconscious for 5 hours, had to get a cat-scan, and was severely dehydrated when she woke up.
These instances also go to my argument supporting Jenny M. in that a mother's intuition is stronger than any 'expert's' opinion. You just "know" when something's not right with your child. And enough people have correlated that particular vaccine (the MMR) with their children not being "right" afterwards to make me think twice about giving it to my kids at such a young age. To be clear, my kids will receive it (my daughter already has). But they will do so when I feel they are ready for it. Not because a panel of 'experts' who could very well be idiots (as I have encountered in the profession before) decided that all infants should receive it at 11 months.?
In all honesty, while it makes for good debate, I really don't care what other people's opinions are when it comes to how I protect my children or chose to have them treated medically. It's not really much of a debate on that front either since I do have them vaccinated. I just have chosen to hold off on the MMR to be absolutely sure they are strong and developed enough to deal with it when it's introduced into their systems.?
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Angelfire - those are awful stories, and I can't imagine how scared and frustrated you must have been when no one would listen to you about your daughter!
I don't want you to think that I buy into the "doctors are God" way of thinking, because I definitely don't -- I know doctors make mistakes* and absolutely can't stand docs who think they're holier than thou (and I see a ton of them) and I actually work in a field that is incredibly critical of physicians. But the hypothetical question you posed ("if my obgyn says i can't eat fish w/ mercury, why can i inject my kids with it?") made it sound to me like you think that no time, hard work, and peer reviewing go into major medical research. I think for someone who devotes that amount of time to research, a basic (to them) distinction like that is an obvious thing they have covered in the years and years of training and research they've been through.
* I thought I would share this story - I had been getting dizzy everytime I stood up for a month straight. Nothing else was going on in my life, I was perfectly happy, and my doctor diagnosed it as anxiety, which I thought was bullshit. I didn't take the meds she prescribed me (I wasn't feeling anxious, and the side effects included weight gain and something else undesirable.) I started drinking more water and the dizziness went away. The day after my appt, my dad who had recently had his thyroid meds decreased, went to the doctor because his movements were feeling, as he put it, robotic. The doctor diagnose him with anxiety and prescribed him anxiety meds, even though my dad had no other symptoms of anxiety either. My husband (then boyfriend) was taking an undergrad class in endocrinology and knew just from that class that robotic movement was a symptom of decreased thyroid medication. We switched doctors.
I am taking epi right now also and I love this thread. I mean LOVE.
This is what I am working on before tonight's class. What are you working on? We are nerds.
Cohort Study Problems: A cohort study was done to assess the relationship between 10-minute Apgar scores and death in the first year of life among babies weighing at least 2500 grams at birth. At birth Apgar scores were recorded and these babies were followed for one year. Of 122 babies with low Apgar scores (0-3) 42 died in their first year of life. Of 345 born with Apgar scores of 4-6 43 died. Create your matrix and answer the following questions.
a. What is your study design?
b. What is your relative risk for the above data?
c. Explain (articulate) your findings from item b.
d. Calculate the attributable risk for the above scenario (explained in #1)
e. What do your findings from ?d? mean?
f. Calculate the attributable risk percent.
g. What do your findings in ?f? mean?
h. Calculate the population attributable risk from the above scenario.
i. What do your findings in ?h? mean?
j. Calculate the population attributable risk percent from the above scenario.
k. What do your findings in ?j? mean?
Dandy-you know I love you and respect your intelligence and views! And thank you for getting my mind working today
Thanks for sharing these stories. Good thing your H knew what he was talking about! I too have found that a lot of times, doctors are the ones who get caught up in the "doctors are God" mentality and they don't or won't listen to anyone else. I hate that. It's almost like you have to go in to an appointment somewhat educated so you know what to ask bc if you don't ask specific questions, you won't get an answer.?
That said, I understand that the mercury is different which is why I ultimately decided to give my daughter that vaccine. And I am sure those who have done the research are experts in their field and have concluded it's safe for children. I am sure it is. I just don't agree necessarily with giving it to them so young. I didn't feel like it was fair of me as a mom to expose them to something that could have potential dangers without them even having a way to express that they weren't feeling right. Which is why I preferred to wait the extra year so that my daughter could talk and communicate. That's all.
Now you guys can have nerdy fun discussions about other stuff! ?
Oh I like making those two by two tables and then plugging in all the numbers - it's one of the rare times math make sense to me
We're on alternative explanations - bias, confounding and random error. It's starting to get into biostats, which I'm not taking yet and by the looks of it, am REALLY not looking forward to!
2X2 tables make my life complete. I am registering for biostats on Monday for Spring term and I might break out into a sweat doing so. I am terrified.
Fantastic! This is what I would have loved to have said, had I not been in class all morning. Good job, Shag! As a teacher who works with these types of kids, I can tell you that even as recently as 20-30 years ago, in the United States, kids with behavior problems (ADHD especially, but also kids who were just "weird" like kids with autism) were just kicked out. Sorry, no public school for you. Until the first version of what is now called IDEIA in 1975 which mandated some form of public education for all kids.
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