Sex & Romance
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No sex
Hi all, dude lurker here. Anyways, I have a problem that seems pretty common from perusing the boards here -- my wife isn't putting out. To give you a sense of what I mean by that, we've had sex exactly once in 2010. And it was on my birthday. I actually have brought this up with her before. A few months ago, I said it was a big problem for me. To give you some background, she was/is on an SSRI, and I was encouraging her to explore other options. She went on the SSRI due to stress from wedding planning (wedding was 2 years ago), and she justified staying on because of stress from her boss (she's had a new, better one for 6 months). When I suggested she should talk to her doctor about coming off of it, or supplementing with something like Wellbutrin, she got defensive. At one point she agreed to get off the SSRI, but only as an act of sacrifice for my well-being. I didn't like the sound of that (more on this later), and in any case her doctor didn't agree with me either. The doctor instead encouraged her to schedule sex and stick to the appointments. This seemed a little silly to me, it's basically like telling a drug or tobacco addict to just stick to quitting. Mentally, something makes you want (or not want, in this case) something, and willpower has never proven to be terribly effective. Anyways, big surprise here, appointments were never scheduled and sex was not had. I do try the romance thing too -- for instance, I took her to the theater and out to dinner at the restaurant we ate at on the night we were engaged for Valentine's day. It was like pulling teeth to get her to do this, because her friend was throwing a party she wanted us to go to. I love this woman otherwise, but the sex embargo makes me love her less and less. It's not because I just need to get my rocks off -- I can do that myself -- it's because it's harder to love someone who doesn't love you back. That she doesn't want to have sex isn't the main problem I see here, it's that she doesn't want to want to have sex. That's why I didn't like her offer of going off the SSRI -- I don't want her to unwillingly lay down and take it, like she's doing me a favor or performing a chore. As I see it, my options are a) divorce, b) get in another fight by bringing it up, and hope it works, or c) go find my own quack doctor to prescribe me an SSRI when I complain of anxiety. At least then I might be able to tune out. And we don't have kids yet (no way I'd bring them into this marriage, right now), so a) wouldn't be horrible. I'm still in my 20s, in good shape, and make a fairly decent income. I think I'd have high odds of finding another mate. I imagine most of you would propose I sack up and go with b). Fair enough. For anyone who has been through something like this before, how did you fix it (if you fixed it)? For the ladies, is there some magic way to talk to a woman about a situation where she is the victimizer and not the victim?
Re: No sex
Have you proposed the idea of couples counseling? I think I would start there.
I think the big thing is your comment:
I love this woman otherwise, but the sex embargo makes me love her less and less. It's not because I just need to get my rocks off -- I can do that myself -- it's because it's harder to love someone who doesn't love you back.
It is really hard to have a marriage and/or relationship when one member has checked out of the relationship. Which is what I have gathered from your comment above.
Again, propose the idea of couples counseling because it really isn't just about lack of sex. If she isn't willing to work on your relationship then you have to reevaluate what you want and go from there.
GL!
Your relationship doesn't sound healthy at all. It sounds like you two need to learn how to communicate with one another. I think that the two of you could benefit from marriage counseling.
If she is unwilling to work on the problem then I don't see any reason to stay. You should not have to put up with a sexless marriage or a partner who is unwilling to work towards a healthier relationship.
I agree with both PP's. Sex and intimacey is a large part of an amorous relationship. Even larger is communication - at this point I see it as you have tried what you can think of and are, at this point, capable of to help rectify this issue, and work towards a happier place in this marriage - for both of you. I don't think this post is just about sex, you seem to have tried to talk to her about her medical status and how to progress from there, to no avail.
Counselling for yourself alone, and as a couple I think would be beneficial. I say for yourself alone, because often I find it easier to confront things about myself with just me and the doctor first. And then confront how my actions and reactions effect the relationship. I also feel that one on one counselling for you will help you answer some of those questions: what kind of love you are looking for, if this is the relationship you want ot be in for the rest of your life, how you feel and react to your partner being on meds long term. The last can be a very hard topic for a lot of people, and can creat a lot of antimosity in a relationship.
Get some help - best advice so far
GL
I agree with the other ladies about counseling. How come that wasn't one of your options?
I think the think that's she really missing here is how you equate sex with love. My husband is the same way. I can tell him how much I love him all day long, but if I'm not putting out, he doesn't buy it...it seems like that's how you are. That's not a bad or wrong way to be, it's just how you are. Have you tried to explain it to her from that point of view?
And I wanted to comment on your attempt at romance on Valentine's Day.
"I took her to the theater and out to dinner at the restaurant we ate at on the night we were engaged for Valentine's day. It was like pulling teeth to get her to do this, because her friend was throwing a party she wanted us to go to."
Now if she had wanted to go to this party alone, without YOU, I'd be suspect. But what you did there was toss aside her plans and desires...and you were surprised that she didn't respond to you? How about doing what she wants next time. I see your romantic attempt there, of course. But it sounds like she really wanted to hit up the party, with you. And you shut her down! She was probably peeved about that.
Re: Vday
Yes, I know going out with me wasn't her preferred option, but IMO that's the problem. We go to parties and hang out with friends all the time. We don't have intimacy in the marriage. I guess I figured that going to one more party just wasn't a big deal in comparison. Or at least, it shouldn't have been.
Re: Counseling
I suppose I'm just not a believer in that stuff, but I think the more pertinent fact is that I am not optimistic about the possibility of getting her to go.
Thanks for the responses.
How well and how long have you known your wife? Is she suffering some sort of "mental block" due to some unfortunate past event?
Are there any mental illnesses that run in her family?
Has she ever used recreational drugs?
Can you find some trusted friends and family who will give you the "truth" about your wife?
OK, I see your point about the V-Day situation.
Honestly, if you're not willing to do counseling, even for yourself, it doesn't really seem like you're willing to work on anything. There is no magic answer here, it's gonna take work.
When every-single-reply you got suggested counseling, just maybe there's something to it.
Seems like you're defensive and looking for someone to give you "permission" for divorce.
Dude, you're living me life (or vise verse). I really suggest couples counseling. It hasn't helped the sex life or been a magic bullet cure but the third party does a great job of helping you find out why it's happening. In my case, it was an event in S/O's long-ago past that resurfaced to start our problems and the therapist helped me understand there was not much I did to knock her or her relationship off the rails. What hurt me the most was that she blamed me for her problems until the counseling, at which point she started viewing me as support instead of a sex-crazed adversary. Much like you, I'm way too young and have too much to contribute to another relationship to be satisfied with a sexless marriage in my twenties. However, the individual and couples counseling has made our relationship go from miserable to contented roommates. I honestly don't know about our future but the counseling has helping me respect her problems and make much more intentional decisions about how to plan a future and fulfill my physical needs. Stay away from church-based therapists and seek a certified sexual therapist; part of the solution might be a non-traditional marriage and the church-based therapists won't go for it.
Oh, and go to individual counseling, too. I go and very rarely talk about me. Instead, the therapist is Subject Matter Expert on whatever her issues are and will guide you through it. It sounds like you've got strong opinions on how to get out of your rut (V-Day dinner) and, depending on what's going on with your S/O, those opinions could be the absolute worst thing for her.
I remember your original post and the vibe I've gotten is that you're actually a decent guy who has tried every damn thing you can think of and get no results. Do this stuff and you'll get results (*may not be results you want).
I too agree with all those above who said you need counseling. It sounds as if you?re both immature ? instead of being ? man/woman you?re still acting as if you?re boy/girl. This must change in order for your marriage to survive the present an especially the future.
First you need this counseling for yourself as a single in a one-on-one session. Second she needs it for herself alone to be brought into the marital relationship as a couple. Third both of you need it together so that you grow-up. Both of you need this help so you are not in the mind-set of it?s I, me, mine, but it?s in we, us, ours ? in others words a couple.
You?re a couple now not single any longer. Marriage changed your single status so it is a give and take proposition ? not one leading while the other follows. There is no such thing as one in control all the time; while the other is just there for the ride it is however, a partnership between two people in unison.
Sex is but one of the many important building blocks within a marriage ? it binds two people together as one. You must first and foremost be able to communicate with each other in order for it to work.
You first seek help for yourself. Then if she?s willing to get help for herself then do so. Finally both of you go for the big one ? getting help together for the sake of your marriage. If you don?t then all I see is that a divorce is in you future together ? GL in whatever you decide!
~~Emily~~
I'm in your exact same situation, but flip flopped. MH won't have sex w/ me, and I have tried so many things. We went through a 3 year period where we had sex 3 times...once a year. I feel your pain.
We are still trying to work through this issue.
1. I realized we have MAJOR issues with communication. Neither one of us has really been telling the other what is on our minds.
2. For him, this is related to a physiological problem, but he wouldn't bother to go to the dr to look into it until a year after it blew up into a huge issue, which was after the 3 years of no sex. He's on medication now, but we are still waiting for it to have an effect. (We've been together for 12 years, married for 5, and this has always been an issue)
3. I'm in the same boat w/ you...I am losing all attraction to him. I'm really afraid that when/if his medication starts working that I'm going to be the one who doesn't want sex because we've been living as roommates for so long he now feels more like just a good friend or a brother. This scares me.
4. Counseling has helped me tremendously. I highly recommend it. We went together briefly, but I've been going on my own for about a year. My therapist has been helping me to communicate w/ MH (which is a huge problem we have) and it has helped. PLEASE go see a therapist.
5. As a pp mentioned, many people have these issues because of something from the past. I'm still not ruling this out for MH, despite the physiological problems.
6. I know exactly how you feel...I'm in my early 30s, I am attractive, fit, smart, and fun, and sometimes I feel like all of this is wasted on a H who looks at me in bed and then rolls over and goes to sleep every night. It breaks my heart anew every single day. It's a hard thing to deal w/.
Good luck. I think communication and counseling are key here.
If she hasn't got a medical or clinical problem for her lack of sex drive (BCP issue, a thyroid problem, something else endocrinologically-based in nature) there's no reason for her to refuse sex.
I'd read her the riot act and she should at least meet you halfway with what YOU want -- make it clear you have needs and they are not being met --- and if she gives you lip service and no intimacy, strongly consider a civil annulment.
Sorry this is happening to you. You sound like a nice gent. GL.
I too had a similar problem, but I am in the process of divorcing my H. The sex was non existent, but it was just a symptom of a greater issue with our marriage. My suggestion is to try the counseling and see how it goes. If you are not willing to go, then you are not willing to make this marriage work, period.
I will also suggest the Five Languages of Love book. It might help you and your wife better understand what it is you define as love and how you feel love from the other person.
It's time to let go of the past(the Valentine's issue for an example) and move forward if you want this to work. If you really don't want it to and you want out, that is ok too. You need to decide how much effort you really can emotionally put into this and when is too much finally too much. For me, I couldn't imagine putting years into fixing something I considered a major issue/part of a healthy marriage.
GL!
I use to wonder how people who love each other could get a divorce and then I realized through friends that sometimes people are better friends when they divorce. Now with that said; if she has gone to the doctors and counseling, etc and things don't change, you have to ask yourself honestly do you want to entertain this situation for the next 10,15,20 years? Be Honest. Once you do answer honestly, proceed.
Remember this life is not a dress rehearsal, LIVE IT NOW.
I was that woman with my ex. We were not married yet(thank god), but we had been together for a while and we had children. I understand that stress seems to be a big factor for her, and stress was the big factor for me. I was really the breadwinner in the home, while he was just living in the moment with any job. I began to feel less and less intimate with him, but only because he never seemed to care what I was going through(ie depression from stress and family). While I was making sure that everything in the home and finances were stabled, his priorities were in a different order. Then rumors began going around that he might of had something with another woman, nobody really saw it but it was speculated. I felt horrible inside that I was putting work, but then realized that I was putting work towards our future and maybe he just felt left out emotionally and physically. So I took it with my own hands and turned it around. I was more intimate with him, we would have sex more often, I tried to keep a positive attitude with him, we were sexting more, and really I felt less stressed and better about the relationship. Although, I took it upon myself to take this step forward he didn't seem to get the point and move forward with me. Since I didn't see any change at all, I just grew tired of the whole situation, and I did not feel appreciated enough to even hold on to something like this. Now, we are separated and I haven't heard from him since.
The point here is, their seems to be more going on with her and even your relationship for her to just go blah. I would also suggest like the other PP's couple's counseling to see if you can find those issues. Otherwise, you should talk to her, see what's going through her mind. Show her that you are aware and care for her well being, and give her what she wants. Don't go into it to seek an argument to see if it would change this time, you really have to go into it with trying to find a solution. If all attempt has failed then maybe the relationship itself would probably seek divorce. When things like this start happening, it begins to hit the core of the relationship and once that core is all broken up their is no building it back. GL, keep us updated.
Do you think she may feel pressured to have sex? Maybe she didn't wanna go out on valentines day because she knew what you were trying to do. That pressure can be a huge turn of. Like oh he's just taking me out because he wants to bone.. great.. and then after a night of lack luster conversation because all you were both thinking about was sex later.. not very sexy. I could quite possibly be projecting my own experiences onto you but it's a thought at least.
Anyway, this really sucks. I think you definitely need to go to therapy, even if she is anti therapy you could go by yourself and get a lot of help. And since you said you're kind of anti therapy I want to encourage you to just try it. Hopefully you can go as a couple and make fun of the silly, "how does this make you feel" things and it'll be a bonding experience while also being quite helpful in other ways.
Hope all works out.
You'd rather divorce her than try counseling first because you're "not a believer in that stuff?" Really? If BOTH of you are not willing to explore all options to repair this before you get divorced, then your marriage is pretty well done, but I can't see going that far if there are avenues you haven't explored yet.
I just wanted to agree with pp's that counselling really is your best bet. You may not be a believer in it, but if you don't at least attempt to fix this marriage, you will be just as much to blame if it fails.
And if it does fail, at least you can say you really did give it your all and leave with a clear concious. Give it a try, really, at the level your relationship is working at, what do you really have to lose?
Because being gay is usually treated with anti-depressants? There's always a chance but the odds of this being the cause are very low.
It has come to that. It's not avoidable. Go see a sex therapist so you both can get what you want out of your sexlife and marriage.
I am glad you all talked.
Also, could she be having an affair????
I think women often assume that their own sexual experience is analogous to what men experience. From conversations I've had, I sometimes get the impression that for men, a lack of sex in a relationship can feel almost abusive. Men definitely have a reputation for not going through the propper steps of innitiating intimacy, but that doesn't seem to be the problem in your case. Assuming that you are being sensetive and attempting communication, maybe your wife needs to be made explicitly aware that by witholding sex she's actually generating motivation for you to pursue things like pornography addiction or even an affair if not full out divorce. This is one of those things where I think sometimes guys are afflicted by inaccurate popular perceptions. Men can be pigs, but a sexual partnership in which there is no sex is an oxymoron. Male physiology and psychology is configured very accutely to achieve as many ejaculations as possible. To work against this is like telling legs not to walk or eyes not to see. Nature takes the path of the least possible resistance and when the sexual urge is resisted, it seeks to find another outlet. These are the kinds of dangers that I perceieve in a situation like this.
Not to accuse anyone of anything, but have you thought that maybe your wife herself is otherwise "involved"? The doctor situation sounds wacky. I'd encourage her to get a second opinion if not more serious help.
I think the best advice anyone has mentioned is to get counciling. Sit down together with someone who can moderate your communication. It's not a matter of going to someone who has all the answers, it's a matter of having a 3rd party (professional) involved in your communication. There could be a myraid of factors here that you're completely over looking or haven't been properly communicated to you.
^^This 100%
Putting too much sexual pressure can have the exact opposite effect than you're trying to achieve. In my previous marriage, my ex put a lot of pressure on me for BJ's (saying stuff like "I can't wait for my birthday! BJ time!") which would put a huge dark cloud on the entire day, when it would have been more fun to just enjoy spoiling him, I was instead dreading the end of the day. I felt like a cheap whore that all he wanted to do was have sex with. I felt like I had been so debased that I didn't even feel like his friend anymore. (There's more to why our marriage failed, but I won't get into that now).
I think there's more to your story as well. Was she physically affectionate with you prior to the wedding? I'm not saying sexually affectionate, but even just little things like running her fingers through your hair while you watched tv, or giving you a little pat on the butt while you were making dinner? Anything like that? Were you?
Was she sexually adventurous prior to your wedding/getting on meds?
Was this a slow-moving progression of less and less sex? Or did she just shut off completely, like a light switch?
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Yiiiiikes... okay, I have to put my two cents in here. Please take this seriously. I've been medicated for depression for about eight years.
1) Forget about 'not believing' in stuff, whether it's meds or therapy or whatever. Read some frigging science. Depression is an illness, caused by imbalances of various chemicals in the brain. Meds and therapy work, but not every patient responds the same way to the same treatment. Some people get better with just therapy, some need medication, some need medication all their lives. This does not depend on your opinion.
2) Antidepressants can reduce sex drive, but so can depression!
3) Reduced sex drive due to depression is a pain in the butt. It feels awful to not feel like yourself, to be unable to please your partner, to have your emotions screwed up. Can you try to believe her and listen to her when she says she doesn't want sex? Pestering her is going to make her feel worse and draw away from you because you can't accomodate her needs. What if she had chronic pain or was paralyzed and sex became different or less frequent because of that? Would you ditch her for it? Think of this the same way.
I'm in a happy relationship despite my illness because my man doesn't try to pave over it, ignore it, or have expectations about the way I should act.
Also -- it sounds like your wife is confused and upset about her condition, which is why she's defensive. Both of you need to read up on it and try to understand it. It's just an illness and it can be managed, but she needs to get over the hurdle of understanding that it's a disease and not some kind of personal failing. You can help her do that by becoming informed and being compassionate.
I'm glad you guys talked, but I don't know if threatening divorce over sex is a smart idea. Marriage isn't all about sex. Someone said to me once not to marry someone because that person makes you happy. Cuz there will be times she/he won't make you happy and then what're you going to do?
I think it's important to approach her in a non-threatening way. Don't blame just her. Take some of the blame yourself; sex takes 2 people...
Have you tried telling her it's an intimate part of your marriage that you miss? Try being more sincere with her rather than "Have sex with me or I'll divorce you!" ... I think that's hurting more than helping -- but it's good she knows this is a serious problem now (it is).
Take her out on a date (or just spend time with her at home) just to be with her, not because you want to get her in the mood for sex.
Like so many others, I highly recommend counseling -- for you, for her, for both together, whatever combination is good for you.
One thing that especially concerns me is the possibility that your wife went on an SSRI in consultation with her primary care physician only -- I can't tell from your post whether that's right or not, but if so, I would call that an early misstep. Anyone who feels they need an antidepressant (and I say this as someone who has been on them a long time) needs to be seeing a therapist as well. Drugs can make you feel better but they don't address your problems, as you well know.
One thought on your resistance to counseling: the first time I went to counseling (on my own, and I was single, in my early 20s) I spent the first three sessions getting over terrible feelings of shame and humiliation about even being in the therapist's office! I was raised to think therapy for people who were "basically healthy" was a silly, self-indulgent and probably pointless thing to do. Now I see it totally differently.
Ideally, a therapist does not really give you very much advice -- he/she gets you to a point where you have a better understanding of what is going on in your own head and what you want to do about it, if anything. It can feel very bad at times -- if you're doing it right, you might discover things about yourself that you really would rather not admit to yourself right now -- but this sometimes painful path is a route to a more mature, consistent way of making decisions and reacting to everyday situations that is in line with your own views and values.
If your first appointment with a therapist feels all wrong, don't settle. In your first appointment, you should ask the therapist what his/her approach and philosophy is. Keep asking questions until you understand what the heck this person is talking about. They should be more than happy to answer your questions, because the better you understand the process, the better off everyone is. If it isn't making sense to you, you can always say you're not sure you've found the right "fit" and might want to talk to some other practitioners. Both you and your wife should agree that you basically like the person you'll be working with. If you don't feel comfortable saying it's not a good fit while you're in the office, you can always go ahead and make the next appointment while you're there, then call back as soon as possible and leave a message cancelling the appointment and saying thank you, but we think we need to keep looking. As long as you cancel right away, they really shouldn't mind. If they call back to try to talk you into coming back to see them, it's a good sign you were _right_ not to want to see that person. I had this happen once, and boy was I glad to get out of that situation! But everyone else I've ever seen has been great about leaving the decision up to me.
One last piece of advice: If you see 10 therapists and you don't like any of them, you need to start asking yourself if you are really just avoiding therapy -- try going with the "least-bad" person you saw and see what happens.
There are a lot of great people out there waiting to help you, so go find that person!
Good luck!