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perhaps a touchy subject... miscarriages
since i'm at the age where friends on both sides of my age (34) are having babies, i've been much more exposed to women who have miscarried. i'm curious if you all think that it seems that more women miscarry now or if it's just because i'm of the age where people are trying to have kids?
i'm saddened by the number of my friends that have lost babies. it takes a monster toll on the individuals and sometimes the marriages. it seems that either women used to be more private about it or it's happening more now. does anyone know a reliable source of statistics on this?
i'm very curious because there seems to be "more" of lots of things (ADHD, Autism, etc) that we don't know the root causes of and i often wonder if they aren't products of our diets/medicines or other lifestyle/environmental choices.
does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Re: perhaps a touchy subject... miscarriages
This is only my opinion, so I hope nothing is taken the wrong way. As someone who has been TTC for a year and I'm on a support group forum for women in my same shoes (vasectomy reversal), I've seen many many miscarriages. I think a lot of the reason it seems like there are more does have to do with our age indirectly. A lot of women our age are actively TTC and temping, charting, etc. They know exactly when they ovulate and therefore, know exactly when AF is due. I think back in the day, miscarriages were just as common, we just didn't know exactly when AF was due, so they may have been missed. Now we can test super early, so if it doesn't stick for some reason after a BFP, we therefore know there is a miscarriage taking place. Does that make any sense at all?
I do think there is a lot more infertility going on in this day and age, and that could have some sort of connection to miscarriages as well.
After being on the getting pregnant board for over a year, I think it's a mixture of women being more open about their loss/struggles and women being more aware of their bodies and finding out much earlier that they are pg.
When we started TTC and I opened up to a couple of girlfriends, I was shocked to find out my one friend had 2 miscarriages back in the mid 90's. I asked why she never said anything to me about it and she said it was mostly because we were in such different stages of life. She got married right of out high school and they were trying for #2. I was the career woman, traveling, living a carefree life. She felt that I wouldn't be able to relate as much at the time and she didn't want me to worry or feel sorry for her.
As for the higher rates of ADHD, Autism, etc, again I think it has a lot more to do with awareness. Looking back, I can name several classmates that were never diagnosed but probably should have been.
This is just my personal opinion as well so please take it at just that and nothing more...
I agree with PP about the fact that technology has come so far since we were younger leading people to find out they are pregnant far before our parents ever did with us. Some people (including friends of mine) are finding out at 4.5 weeks pregnant and sharing that with every one right away, then if they miscarry its the same thing, everyone knows right away. For this reason I didn't really tell anyone that I was pregnant until I was 12 weeks along...and while I could have still miscarried the chances of that happening were less then they would be at 4-5 weeks along.
As far as the ADHD and Autism goes I think its the same thing, there are more tests that can be done to diagnose it so it's being diagnosed. I know there are studies out there to the effect of parents age at time of pregnancy and incidence of Autism and other disabilities...but there hasn't been enough research done to that effect, but it could in some cases be a link in that the older the parents the higher the likelihood of it happening.
again, i wonder what causes the infertility in the first place?
ITA that in general, women are starting families later so that in and of itself probably contributes a great deal to fertility issues. i think to myself often, "i wonder if i'll have trouble conceiving if lars and i decide to try." i had such an smooth pregnancy with my son at 23 and seemingly got pregnant very easily... but who knows if that will be the case 12-15 years later?
i know that my mother had a miscarriage at 18 but went on to have 4 more kids. a friend's wife had 6 miscarriages before she was blessed with 3 beautiful LOs. you have to be strong to persevere through that kind of loss.
THIS, exactly. Lurking on GP and BOTB has actually made me decide *NOT* to chart, at least not for the first 6 months or so once we start trying. There's so much pain there over chemical pregnancies and VERY early m/cs that even as recently as 15 years ago no one would have had any idea it happened. For me, personally, I don't see the value in putting myself through that additional pain and stress unless we're trying for a very long time with no results.
This is JMO, and not meant to disparage anyone else's journey and struggles.
Another factor that's been raised in articles I've seen before is obesity and its connection with PCOS and leading to m/cs and IF.
This can indeed be a touchy subject. Particularly because there is a lot of misconception about miscarriage and, at times, insensitivity. I tend to agree with PPs that earlier pregnancy awareness and people feeling more comfortable talking about miscarriage do make it seem that it is more common now, though I don't know of any data regarding whether it actually is more common (which would be hard to actually find for the same reasons as above).
The American College of Gynecology (ACOG) has some information about miscarriages in general. http://www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp090.cfm (sorry, I'm not sure how to make it clicky...if anyone else can, that'd be great)
It is good, basic information for anyone who has had a miscarriage or knows someone who is going through one, just to clear up any misconceptions.
FWIW, ACOG says that 15-20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. That number may be a low estimate since we still some miscarriages are still not identified and/ or are not reported.
I also have a friend that had 6 miscarriages but now has 2 beautiful children. I still don't know she and her husband got through that! I agree with what everyone else has said about more people being open about it. I think there are A LOT of people that share their pregnancies very early on when there is a higher chance of miscarriage. I do often wonder if it has a lot to do with the age of the mothers and fathers since people are starting families later in life. I do know, though, that both my grandmothers had 2 miscarriages each, and they were both in their mid-twenties.
As for the autism, adhd diagnoses I think it is definitely a higher awareness. I have also heard/read that men and women that conceive children in their 40's or older have a much higher chance of having a child with autism. Who knows.... either way there are such great resources for parents and children these days.
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in what way are people insensitive? i'm thinking you mean the things people say like, "you'll just have to keep trying." or "it wasn't meant to be" or something. otherwise, i cannot imagine being insensitive to a loss like that. i think sometimes people just don't know what to say so they try to come up with SOMETHING more than just "i'm sorry" and then they end up saying something inadvertently hurtful.
pregnancy is so weird and beautiful. i can't believe we grow new humans in our bellies. bizarre.
Regarding miscarriages, I agree with the people who've written something to the effect of early testing, charting, etc. I dont know anyone in my parents generation who charted, temp'ed, tested early etc. My family is incredibly open about pregnancy, fertility, etc, but they just didn't have the technology, community (internet) and ability to know as early as we can find out now. I think that is a big part of it. I don't know that I could say that miscarriages are any less or more common now - because I don't feel like the situations can be compared, since the times are so different now than they were then.
I personally have a difficult time knowing what to say when someone has a miscarriage. I've never been pregnant and am not trying to get pregnant, but I am always surprised when someone announces a pregnancy at 4-5 weeks, because I know so.many.people who have had miscarriages that it seems like you'd be risking a lot of extra heartbreak having to tell people if something happened. I know it's each person's personal decision to decide when they will tell people, but I do plan (eventually, in a few years when we have children) to wait to tell people because of the miscarriage risk, and of course, so it doesn't feel like people start asking you baby questions at 5 weeks.
I think there could be many reasons regarding autism rates. I read an interesting U of Minnesota study regarding High Fructose Corn Syrup and the levels of mercury that is in commercial grade HFCS. Commercial grade HFCS is used as an ingredient in many processed, sugary foods, which unfortunately, a lot of adults and children eat. I don't know if there might be a real link there, but being that it was mercury that was the vaccine/autism link, I can't help but wonder if they should look into the HFCS link more. There are several children in my family (my cousin's kids) that have Autism, and there are many in my family that are anti-vaccine, but I am not, especially since the person who started the anti-vaccine "movement" admitted that he falsified information in his study, making it no longer credible, at least in my opinion. I think that we are just exposed to so much more now - more chemicals/hormones in our food, more technology,more radio/electrical currents, that it seems difficult to pinpoint any one thing that could be causing Autism, as there isn't a good way to have a "control" group.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, gained from many different things I've read, and I'm not claiming to have the answers.. just an opinion.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
I think it's more than just the "at least you can get pregnant", "it was god's will", etc. I think people are insensitive in that they make it a taboo subject.
The only people who have asked about our loss (outside of the first week or so) are people who have also had a loss. Or, if they do ask, it's in hurtful questions like "are you getting over it yet?". People who have had very late losses and/or lost an infant feel like they can't talk about their babies.
Exactly. People don't know what to say, so the person going through the miscarriage may not want to deal with insensitive comments, or their friends/ family may avoid the subject because they don't want to say anything insensitive. That is what, IMO, makes it a touchy subject. Also, some people can be judgmental about it. For example, the parents are "too old," "not healthy enough," or in the case of multiple miscarriages there are unfortunately people who think the couple shouldn't TTC anymore (NONE of which I believe, by the way). It all leads back to misconceptions or mis-information, I suppose.
ETA: I don't think I'm explaining my thoughts well. It's hard to put in writing. MrsGo4 has some excellent points and explained it well.
my aunt miscarried at 8 months at our house. they named him Reese. they even had an open casket (well, he was in a bassinet) funeral for him. it was the most heartbreaking funeral i've ever been to BUT, i'm so glad my aunt was so open about it. he was her little boy, even if she hadn't gotten to meet him yet. so small and perfect, a little angel!
I totally agree with this.....I look at Carly and think back about being pregnant, and it doesn't seem real! Such an amazing miracle! I still am so amazed by all the little things that must happen to conceive a child, and then what our bodies do to carry them. I agree, Lily, it is weird and bizarre!
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as I have had two losses of my own, you wouldn't believe the insensitivity of some people, but I know that is not the point of this post, so I wont go in to it. Before my first loss I had no idea how many people had losses also, but once I did, people were coming out of the woodwork telling me about theirs--I had no idea!!!
IMO, there is soo much more testing and knowledge available know to people ttc. I don't chart because I am #1: selfish for my own reasons and #2) it would be one more thing to obsess over! I already have monitors and sticks to pee on and monitoring cervical fluids etc...! To get all of the stars aligned and get two adults "in the mood" is a lot to balance!!!
bfp 01/23/10 m/c 12w1d 03/14/10 EDD 09/24/10
bfp 07/20/10 m/c 5w1d 07/25/10
bfp 11/19/10 Born 07/24/11 via C/S
My Forever Sister From Another Mister~CashewsMommy!!
First, a disclaimer: very few people I know have miscarried, and when they have, the only things I think I"ve ever said is "I'm sorry."
But, I think some of the "insensitivity" might be because for people like me, with no children (or even a desire for children) it's really hard to "get" being so attached to a fetus that's only been around for less than 12 weeks. That's a really short period of time and isn't enough for it to even have developed enough to resemble an actual baby yet. Combine that with the fact that about 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, and miscarriage in early pregnancy are usually because of fetal abnormalities, it just doesn't make logical sense to be so broken up about it.
Please don't take that as passing judgment on people who do have a hard time handling miscarriage. I'm just trying to explain why, IMO, people might be insensitive about such an issue.
Completely agree. Sometimes I wish dh would have videotaped the delivery because it just seems like a dream and now I have this beautiful little girl. So amazing but almost scary that it won't happen like this next time. I hear about all the miscarriages and problems with infertility and get worried. I think I heard that by age 35 you have only 10% of your eggs left. Sadly, 35 is the next stop on my age train.
Photo taken at 16 months old
First, I am willing to wager that a lot more people than you know have had a m/c.
And I don't think anyone "gets" it until it's happened to them. But I will say this, even before my m/c, I was completely in love with Kennedy. From the day I found out I was pregnant with her, I loved her.
But, even then, I never imagined how heartbreaking a m/c actually is. I discovered I miscarried at 15 weeks, so it's a little different than than the very early miscarriages, but I can not even describe the emotional pain I was in.
I still think the "it's so early" thing is crap though. Especially if you're TTC, there are dreams and wishes and love for that baby from the minute two lines appear.
I agree with this.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
You're kind of proving my point. I don't have kids or even a desire to have kids. I don't "get" any of what you just described, and I'd be willing to bet many others like me don't either. Especially the bolded parts.
It's not a judgment. It's just a fact.
I wasn't instantly in love with my kid when I got the positive...it took some time for me, but I also struggled with ED and had some selfish "I don't want to gain weight" thoughts when I got pregnant and went through a bout of "I don't really want this" when I got pregnant...so the instantly in love with a being isn't always there for everyone either.
I had a miscarriage in my early twenties and at the time it didn't have much of an effect on my emotionally. I have found as I've grown older and closer to wanting children that I still carry a little bit of grief over that early loss. I didn't want a baby then and I certainly wasn't ready, but there is still some sadness that I will never know what might have been.
As far as people being insensitive because they don't have or want children, I don't buy that. I think by far the majority of people have good intentions when they say insensitive things. It's more just a case of people not thinking, or not knowing what to say. On the other hand, there are just some a-holes who are insensitive and don't care to take seriously the grief that many people feel over losses. And I don't think that has anything to do with whether they've had children or not. I think it's just because they are a-holes.
I totally agree that the majority of the increase in known miscarriages is likely because of early detection and closer monitoring methods. But it worries me about the increase in early sexual maturation in young girls. The average age for first menstruation has been significantly lowered in the past few years and I don't think that is a good sign for future reproductive health.
Judging
I definitely think most people don't TRY to be insensitive. Most people just tend to over think it. "I'm sorry" really IS enough, but most people think they need to say more than that...that where the other comments typically come from.
I have a casual, friend-of-a-friend situation.. She told us she was PG at 4 1/2 weeks, which surprised me since I really don't know her well. She had a miscarriage at 6 weeks, and when she told me, I told her that I was sorry for her loss. I left it at that - I didn't know what else to say plus we aren't really that great of friends. Well, I just learned that she is upset with me that I didn't "do more for her while she was mourning her loss." I honestly don't know what else I could have done or said... for many reasons. a) We aren't that close b) I can't relate to her situation so I dont have personal experiences to draw from c) I said I was sorry and didn't want to make it worse by trying to say more than I felt comfortable saying. I honestly wasn't trying to be insenstive to her, but I guess somehow I was. It just goes to show that I think people will have very individual responses and reactions and what is appropriate to say to one person might not be the right thing to say to someone else.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
I agree with most things that have been posted. I think m/c in our culture is so taboo. I think it's a feeling (IMO, and I have never been pregnant) that you failed as a women. Your duty in life is to carry a child and you couldn't sustain a viable pregnancy. Of course, in most cases it is not the mother's fault at all, as PP mentioned a lot of time a m/c is from abnormalies and the pregnancy would never be viable.
It is so funny (no humorous, just odd) how when the topic of m/c comes up how many women come out the wood work to say they have also experienced this. I wish our culture had a better way to help these mother's deal with m/c and the loss they have faced.
On the topic of ADHD and Autism, I have no clue why it is more prevelent. I think a lot of the prevelence comes from technology and the better diagnoses and treatments, but I think there is also just more disorders. I don't remember growing up with anyone who could have been diagnosed with Autism and we only had 1 girl in our class with ADHD that I can remember.
I personally think a lot of the disorders and the greater frequency is from the food we eat and chemicals we are being exposed to. From HFCS, as PP mentioned, to more toxins in the air. I don't agree with the vaccination claim at all. I personally think mother's are endangering other children by not having their child vaccinated. Personal opinion . . . please don't flame.
Nicole and Sam 10/3/09
Again, not my point. My point was that any insensitivity isn't intentional - it's cluelessness.
Judging
Alright, so this is where this post is heading I have another two cents. Obviously Mrs.Go4Hockey and I have a different perspective on this when it comes to sensitivity and loss related. It's like having a death in your family, if someone you knew had a death in their family would you be as insensitive to pretend like it never happened? Would you ask about it or try to console that person or maybe bring by a baked hotdish or cookies?
On mothers day, pretend you had a piece of art in the museum and there was a special hall saved just for "real" artists (as in mothers that had successful pg's) would you feel cheated as in you are an artist too, you are just not a real artist. We are mothers too, our angels are just not with us.
It like something you want soo badly and you feel like you finally have it and then it's taken from you and you feel like a failure now. Nobody aknowledges it, nobody asks about it, nobody cares.
And this bullsh*t about m/c being taboo, thats what pisses us off even more. As a society we can talk about cancers and disorders and everything else except someones failed ute? And the big deal about it's only two lines on a stick, how can we care yet? We care because our life is about to change, and it's something I've wanted for a very long time, thats the big deal.
bfp 01/23/10 m/c 12w1d 03/14/10 EDD 09/24/10
bfp 07/20/10 m/c 5w1d 07/25/10
bfp 11/19/10 Born 07/24/11 via C/S
My Forever Sister From Another Mister~CashewsMommy!!
Ok, seriously. I know this is an emotional topic, but why are some people either not understanding or completely twisting what I actually said?
Someone mentioned that people are insensitive to people who have experienced a miscarriage. I tried to explain why that may come off as insensitivity (and may actually be insensitive) might just be coming from a place of complete and total lack of understanding, from my perspective as a childless person.
Further, assuming that your interpretation actually is what I said, why is it disgusting to you that I don't understand what a couple feels when they have a miscarriage? It's a fact. I don't know what they're going through and I have absolutely no idea what it feels like to want to have a baby. That doesn't mean I'm an a$$ to those I know who do have a miscarriage. It means I just don't know and probably just saying "I'm sorry" is all I can offer.
Is it that inflammatory to say that someone who has never been in the situation themselves may look at it from a completely different point of view?
ETA: I will admit that the words "broken up" may have been a poor choice of words. I do apologize for that.
When their point of view is "it just doesn't make logical sense to be so broken up about it" then yeah, I think that's totally a flammable opinion. Just because you don't have first hand knowledge of an experience doesn't mean you suddenly lose all common sense and are excused for a lack of empathy.
ETA: I see you just apologized for the "logical sense" thing, so good you do see to some extent where all of us are supposedly "misreading" your intent.Judging