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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: perhaps a touchy subject... miscarriages
Just one last thing cause I think this is getting dangerously close to beating a dead horse.
Doesn't that kind of prove the original point I was trying to make, though? I honestly had no idea that choosing those words would offend anyone and really wan't trying to.
I haven't read all the responses, so I apologize if I'm repeating people.
1 - I would argue a lot of m/c "never happened" a few years back because women didn't know they were pregnant! Now you can test so early that you lose a baby you would have never known was a baby because you get your period about on time but had a positive pregnancy test. With the online world and social media more people are sharing earlier so I think we hear about it more. My midwife said the average m/c happen in week 8-9 so I also believe a lot of us think with amazing health care out there we will be 'fine'... but not a lot drs can do about natural mc.
2 - obesity is taking its toll on women and pregnancies. It's much harder to get pregnant, stay pregnant, and then chances of multiples go up, which increases c-section rates, premature babies...
3 - not just obesity but women are trying as they're older and that is also creating a lot of public health drama.
4 - latest ADD research, in the LA times a few weeks ago a huge study looked at 1.5 MILLION kids with ADD and found a lot of it is misdiagnosis. Years ago on 20/20 they showed a chart with a direct line down of retardation in kids with the same line going up in ADD. This latest LA TIMEs report shows the same thing - it may be the kids who have cognitive issues are being mislabeled, or kids who are in just crappy phases of regular childhood are being misdiagnosed. Not saying there aren't a ton of kids with serious and very real ADD... just saying there is now data coming out that perhaps we're not in such a crisis afterall. Of course other research shows age of dad DOES MATTER and the older dads are creating more ADD kids.
Having dealt with IF for 2+ years before miraculously getting pg, I'm probably on the defensive. I don't think you necessarily have to have suffered a miscarriage, IF or even ever wanted children to be compassionate on any one of these issues. I find a lot of people use the "I don't understand what they're going through" excuse as a get out of jail free card for being rude and not thinking before they speak. As others have said, maybe an "I'm sorry" is all that is really needed - it truly disgusted me how many uneducated people told us to "just relax", "maybe it wasn't meant to be", "it'll happen when it's supposed to, etc. If you know NOTHING on the topic, just be supportive or say nothing at all.
On a (kinda) different subject - one of my pet peeves is those that are pg for about 5 seconds and blab it to everyone. As others have posted, unfortunately, a lot of early pregnancies result in miscarriage - I'm a firm believer in the 12-week rule.
Liz, I totally understand what you're saying, and agree.
I think anyone suffering a m/c who expects anything more than an I'm sorry, let me know if there's anything I can do to help, and a understanding ear is being ridiculous, especially if they're asking for it from someone who doesn't have/doesn't want kids.
Just the responses to this post shows you how different people are. I don't think there's anything besides I'm sorry that you can say without risking offense, and it's a douchebag move to suggest you know what they're going through when you don't.
I think this is where well-meaning people get into trouble, because they feel like I'm sorry isn't enough. And, I've known some people like Anita's friend, for whom I'm sorry really isn't enough. And so they try to find something else to say, and it ends up awful.
That is honestly the single most attrocious thing I have read all day.
bfp 01/23/10 m/c 12w1d 03/14/10 EDD 09/24/10
bfp 07/20/10 m/c 5w1d 07/25/10
bfp 11/19/10 Born 07/24/11 via C/S
My Forever Sister From Another Mister~CashewsMommy!!
Really? REALLY? You had no idea that making light of and diminishing someone's pain and heartbreak would be offensive? I don't even know what to say. I really don't.
By saying "it just doesn't make logical sense to be so broken up about it," PP is diminishing the feelings of grief and heartbreak that are felt by many women who experience early pregnancy loss.
Would anyone have the audacity to say something like that to a grieving widow who has lost her husband? A child who's dog ran away? A son or daughter who has lost their parent? No. It is no one's place to deem another person's feelings illogical, and to do so is to diminish them.
edit: wording
This is my point. WTF else are people supposed to do? This is no more and no less than I would offer someone for any other loss. The only potential difference is that I may have context, for example, to know how it really feels to lose a grandparent, and to lose a grandparent to Alzheimer's in particular, so I can discuss with someone their feelings and offer up how I coped if asked. I have real life experience. I can empathize.
I can IMAGINE what a m/c feels like, but I can't really know. I don't have the ability to empathize, so all I can do is sympathize, say I'm sorry, and offer to help in any way I can.
<sigh>. This is why I only lurk on GP and BOTB. I'm pretty sure they would come after me with the pitchforks because of this and other apparently flameful opinions.
Yeah, pretty much all topics about this and IF will do that. No big!
ETA: and hey, at least it's still got 5 stars! You'd think think the OSB would have been alllll over this.
I'm curious about that too.
I don't care for shootingstar's use of the word "ridiculous" but I get where her intentions were in her post.
I answered your question...I'm not sure how to interpret your lack of response.
It seems to me that the reaction to miscarriage is a very individual thing, just as the reaction to pregnancy is. People go into pregnancy in so many different ways, emotionally... for some people it's a devastating accident, for some people a happy accident. For some people they get pregnant on the first "try", for other people it's a really long emotional struggle...
Because everyone goes into pregnancy so differently, it makes sense that people are going to have very different responses to a miscarriage, should it occur. I imagine most people feel some level of grief, but their response may range from grief mixed with relief, to disappointment, to devastation, depending on the woman's circumstances, and her level of emotional investment in the pregnancy, etc. etc.
So an outsider can empathize generally with the loss of a pregnancy, and can try and understand the depth of the loss that that person is feeling, but can't necessarily just KNOW the depth of loss without either knowing the woman really well, or making a whole lot of assumptions about the woman and her particular situation.
I think honest, open, non-judgmental conversations about miscarriage could help those of us on both sides of the situation relate better to those on the other side?
I didn't see your response. I'd interpret my lack of response as someone skimming the responses and missing one.
I guess I don't think she was making light of anything, just admitting an inability to understand the grief. I admit, I don't understand it either. I don't have children, have never lost a child, and I can't pretend to understand it.
This is one of those topics where I only have one possible thing to say:
Okay, lurker here.
I completely agree with what Elizabeth is trying to say - as someone who is also childless, its impossible for us to know what to say/do/feel when someone suffers a miscarriage. So perhaps we come across as insensitive, but we honestly don't know differently/better.
Actually, once I had a friend who had a M/C and when i was trying to be sympathetic, she actually said she felt relieved, especially knowing that many m/c are because of genetic issues with the child. (And before you all flame ME, thats what my friend said. I was quite shocked, actually).
Everyone is different. If you expect more than a bit of sympathy, perhaps a card & flowers, you might honestly be expecting too much. Because that is pretty standard when someone dies, whether its a fetus or 90.
If you can't see the difference between "I am so sorry for your loss, I can't even begin to imagine what you're going through" and "I'm so sorry for your loss, but I don't understand why you're making such a big deal about it," well then I'm sad for you.
And I'm done.
Holy bananas! This is craziness.
I understand that you don't "get" it and I pray that you'll never have to "get" it, but rather then defending yourselves for being oblivious to the feelings of grief over a miscarriage, why don't you try to put yourselves into the shoes of someone who's had one. Whether you personally want a chid or not.
Try to imagine being a person that does. Try to imagine wanting nothing more in life then to be a parent. To have a child. To share your love and your life with this being who belongs to you. Imagine when you pee on the stick and give you a second a line. Imagine the excitement of knowing that your dream is going to come. Imagine your life changing in that instant. Now your thinking about baby names. Your wondering if your child will be a boy or a girl. Your picturing yourself nine months from now in the hospital holding your flesh and blood. Your changing your lifestyle.
Now imagine in an instant that comes to an end. The dream is over. Only it's not a dream. It's very much your reality. The physical pain which in the end, is overshadowed by the emotional pain. Now your questioning yourself. What did I do wrong. I could I have stopped this from happening. Will it happen again?
Then, when/if you do find out that you are pregnant again...and all you want is that baby...but yet you can't possibly find excitement in your bfp.
Let me paint you a little picture of a woman who was almost 11.5 weeks pregnant when she started bleeding. She had seen a healthy baby with a strong heartbeat on an ultrasound only three weeks earlier. She was so excited to be nearing that second trimester. . .after all, this is when their supposed to be safe. When she went to the ER, they confirmed her miscarriage. A baby on the ultrasound measuring only three days bigger then the healthy baby she had seen three weeks earlier. They sent her home where she continued to carry out her miscarriage naturally.
While at home, she went to the bathroom. She passed a LOT of blood and a lot of tissue. When she wiped down there, she caught the fetus of her eight week, six day baby in the tp. Through her tears, she was able to count ten fingers and ten toes of the baby that was going to change her life.
Let me tell you. That baby was a part of me. From the moment I found out I was pregnant to the moment I lost him/her. That child became part of the definition of who I am. That child will be in my heart forever.
Here I am, five months later and just found out we are expecting again. I'm scared. I'm apprehensive. I'm a fricking nut-bar. I'm not excited about....and I want NOTHING more then to be excited.
ETA: Sorry for all of the typos.
*So proud and so lucky to be the mommy of two beautiful little girls
and one handsome little man*
RJ~5.17.2005~born @ 37w due to IUGR~4lbs 15ozs
Al~4.5.2008~born big and healthy @ 38w~7lbs 9.5ozs
Lil man~5.20.2011~born big and healthy @ 39w (after one he!! of a pregnancy)~8lbs 1oz
Bravo Zed!
bfp 01/23/10 m/c 12w1d 03/14/10 EDD 09/24/10
bfp 07/20/10 m/c 5w1d 07/25/10
bfp 11/19/10 Born 07/24/11 via C/S
My Forever Sister From Another Mister~CashewsMommy!!
Zed - I'm not going to quote you because it's long.
I think perhaps I and a couple others are being misunderstood. I'm SORRY for your pain. I am genuinely truly sorry that you're experiencing what you are, and all the things you've beautifully described. I wish you didn't have to go through it, and no one else had to either.
What I'm saying, is that, even if we were friends, I don't know what more you'd want from me than to say I'm sorry for your loss, tell you I'm there if you need any help/to listen, and then do so if you did need me.
People get in to trouble because it feels like saying I'm sorry isn't even to cover your pain, and *SOME* people who have m/cs act like something more is expected of others. That's when people end up saying dumb things like "It's god's plan" and "you can always have another baby". ETA: It's bumbling, and stupid, but probably more from a place of not knowing what to do or say than malice. You still have every right to be upset by it. I'm simply trying to explain why it *might* happen.
All the eloquent explanations in the world of your pain aren't going to make me understand the unique feelings you're going through.
That's ALL I've been trying to say. I don't know why that's so offensive and confusing to people, and I don't know what else you want from me. Husband died? I'm so sorry for your loss. Let me know if there's anything at all I can do to help, or if you just need to talk. Mom died? I'm so sorry for your loss. Let me know if there's anything at all I can do to help, or if you just need to talk.
Why is it different for an m/c? What, precisely, did I say that was offensive? Was it the use of the word ridiculous? Okay, fine - to expect anything more than that response from people is an unrealistic expectation if you don't ask for anything more than that. Does that make it all better? Because the point is the same - not everyone in your world can go through your grief in depth with you, because some of us just.don't.get.it. I get you're in extreme pain. I get that it's complex, and difficult, and scary, and stressful, and a million other things. But I don't get why you (the general you, no Zed in particular) think I owe you more than I would give anyone else experiencing a loss.
I honestly and truly don't understand where I was offensive.
This is what I'm saying. Is this a more clear explanation than I'm giving? Seriously, what am I missing here?
I'll offer this and then I am off to bed.
Whether someone had a perfect job of their lifetime and it was lost, or if someone has lost a house, parent, sibling, spouse, a pg, or some other major loss, generally they are are hurting. Hurting people tend to respond well to someone taking care of them in my experience, as in someone taking the initiative to do something nice for someone else.
Offering to be there if they want to talk is fine and dandy, however doing something without be asked is worth a million dollars. IMO, people who are hurting often don't reach out to others like they should, its often kept in for a multitude of reasons...maybe they don't want to feel like a burden or that they are weak.
I think when there is a gap between what one needs and hopes for and when its not received by others close to them is when the animosity starts to grow.
I know there will be a time in everyones life that they will experience a loss, whether its a family member, a spouse, a loved job, a pg or whatever, something that will cause you to be deeply saddened and then you'll see what the other side of the card looks like.
bfp 01/23/10 m/c 12w1d 03/14/10 EDD 09/24/10
bfp 07/20/10 m/c 5w1d 07/25/10
bfp 11/19/10 Born 07/24/11 via C/S
My Forever Sister From Another Mister~CashewsMommy!!
Coming in late to this, but "I'm sorry," is ALL I want people to say, then STFU before they can say something stupid. When those friends who are having TTTC spit out things like, "At least you CAN get KU," in the same sentence though...I can do without that. It makes the, "I'm sorry," turn into, "I'm sorry YOU got KU and I didn't," etc.
I agree with the 2nd bolded paragraph where you say, "I'm sorry," for a dead spouse or parent too. The difference is, people leave it at that and (hopefully) don't go on to say things that amount to, "I'm sorry your mom died, but at least you have a dad," or "I'm sorry your DH left you, but at least you got married," or "Sorry to hear your mom has breast cancer. I remember how relieved we were when our mom's scare turned out to be just fine."
If people, understandably, don't know what the right thing to say in ANY tough situation, leave it at a simple, "I'm sorry. I'm here if you need to talk." AND LEAVE IT AT THAT.
ETA - Saying nothing can be just as hurful. SIL was 3 months ahead of me and sent weekly emails asking how I was feeling, symptoms, u/s questions, etc. and then cut-off all contact the day we shared our m/c, other than her shower invite 2 months later. She has yet to say anything, and I doubt ever will. I know it's awkward, but I also know she was in love with my nephew by 10 weeks. If it's too uncomfortable for her to say anything, imagine how hard it is for us. I felt like I was this contagious, negative thing she wanted to avoid, which still hurts. A simple FB message or text saying, "I'm so sorry to hear your sad news," would have saved our relationship.