Family Matters
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Re: Where do you draw the line?
I think your father never had any intention of paying for the wedding. He only said that to get your love, affection and loyalty and of course to make your mom out to be the bad guy. Your mom's lien is just an excuse. He has known about that money since the day it was written in their divorce decree. If it wasn't for the lien he would have found something else.
I have a question? If he didn't pay taxes for several years and then once he was charged with paying back taxes including fines, penalties and interest, would you also blame the goverment or would you place the blame where it belonged, with your father. Why is this any different? Do you think your mother maliciously conspired to ruin your wedding ?
Thank you all for your advice and thoughts on this issue. Although some of it was difficult to hear, I realize that you can only judge me based on what I write here...and the situation is extremely complex. As some of the PPs have observed, this type of feuding in my family is par for the course.
Lime, to answer your question, the fight with my brother ended. I didn't want the stress of a long-term fight with my brother over nonsense. I apologized to him for any headaches or stress that resulted from my conversation with my dad, but I let him know that I only had the best intentions at heart. I also let him know that I would not tolerate him speaking to me so abusively and he needs to never do that again. That's the short version of it, at least.
ETA: I never ASKED my father, or anyone else, for a DIME for my wedding. The money was OFFERED to me and the $20,000 my FI and I had saved for the wedding immediately went to student loans. (We were saving for our wedding since before we got engaged.)
Also, my issue is the fact that my mother waited all of these years to collect on the money. Everything was finally peaceful and she just reopened all of the old drama. She waited so long to collect the maximum interest and my anger stems from her shadiness, greed, and re-opening of Pandora's box.
If your father was misinformed about what he owed, he could sue his lawyer for malpractice - at least to collect the penalties and interest. My guess is that he's not about to do that.
Also, your dad paid alimony (vs. child support or a division of property) b/c there is a tax break associated with that (no tax break for child support, and your mom has to pay taxes on alimony, not on child support). Your dad seemed to know what he was doing.
You can't do anything for your parents but put this behind you and move on. If it makes you feel better, your dad was offering to pay for your wedding with "stolen" money. The fact that it was stolen from your mom is no different than if it was money he stole from his work or from a bank.
This is no defense of your mom. She is probably as manipulative as you assume she is.
Save up. You're only five or six months behind in your savings (plus your loans are paid off). If this means you will get married six months later, it's not the end of the world! You and fi have the rest of your lives to be together.
I would consider conseling to deal with your BSC family.
Newsflash, life doesn't revolve around YOU and your desire for your pretty pink princess day. I doubt your dad refused to pay the full amount he owed for decades just to screw YOU over. I doubt your mom finally decided to go after the money he legally owed her before she no longer could leglally go after it just because YOU got engaged and she wanted to screw YOU out of a pretty pink princess day. You are in the middle because YOU are putting yourself there--neither of their past or current actions in this matter have anything to do with YOU at all. YOU need to just stay out of it.
Question: if your dad's house was hit by a hurricane, completely flooded, and he needed his money to pay for house repairs instead of YOUR pretty pink princess day...would you still find a way to blame your mom? Or would your be fuming about how the hurricane ruined YOUR life as well?
Non-toxic, -selfish, -poor excuses for adults would realize that in the grand scheme of things, having a pretty pink princess day in not a neccessity. They would save up for the pretty pink princess day they wanted and pay for it themselves.
And, really, stop with the "casualty of war" BS. It just adds to your image as an overdramatic, self-centered snot. There are real children out there living through (and dying in) real wars out there--and trust me, they aren't whining about not getting their pretty pink princess days for free.
Let me guess...your favorite color is pink?
Seriously though, I don't think that being angry or disappointed makes me a snot, spoiled, or disrespectful. I doubt any of you in my same situation WOULDN'T be upset. You can make your point without unnecessary name calling. I DID save up the money for my wedding. I DIDN'T demand people give me a "pretty pink princess day".
My parents' divorce and custody battled spanned over 16 years, and involved a lot of fighting and manipulation. My parents' divorce was so bad, you can GOOGLE IT! In my entire life, I've seen them in the same room together without POLICE involvement maybe half a dozen times. So, excuse me for saying so, but my upbringing was very much like being a casualty of war.
Totally agree. You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth - you claim that it's fine that she's trying to get the money she's owed, but then she's greedy for doing it? And if your Mom did wait until the statute of limitiations was going to run, so what? It's really none of your business. Do you think it was all some master plan to put the lien on the house right after your father offered to pay for your wedding.
You seemed to be ready to pay for the wedding once, so do it. Your comments about FI's family makes it obvious that you are now pissed that some else is not paying for it - despite what you say.
I'm not arguing that you have zero right to feel disappointed, but repeatedly comparing yourself to a war victim is absolutely ridiculous, and incredibly offensive to ACTUAL war victims. Say this to a Holocaust survivor and pray that they don't immediately punch you in the face.
I think you would have gotten different responses if you had only mentioned that fact that you were upset this was happening after things from the divorce has started to finally settle. Instead, it sounds like you are whining about your Mom taking your wedding money.
I don't have a relationship with with my father for a number of reasons. If you want to cut out a parent because they are manipulative, toxic, etc., that's probably a good idea. But, the facts you have given us, and the reasons why, seem like you and your family just live and thrive in drama.
Good luck with everything - for your sanity, stay out of the issues with your parents. It's none of your business and nothing good will come of it.
Your childhood sucked, that's awful, but you are choosing to let it this stuff make your adulthood suck, that's on you. As a PP said, referring to yourself as a 'casualty of war' is so offensive to people who have actually been through wars. You are clearly alive and well, so make the best of it.
You aren't going to have your pretty princess day unless you figure out a way to pay for it, so either do that or have a simple wedding. I wouldn't change a thing about my wedding and outside of our rings it cost us less than $1k.
If your mom is really that awful, then distance yourself or cut her out, whatever, but don't do it over money, you are an adult and neither of your parents owe you anything financially. If you're not already in therapy, go.
And this idiotic statement furthur proves the point at how selfish the OP really is.
I'll give you what helpful advice I can. You need counseling and I don't believe you are ready to be in a marriage (and I'm aware this statement will piss you off, I am being honest not trying to anger you). If you really, truly, honestly believe that you are a suffering and living as a "casualty of war", then you need counseling to learn how to deal with that; if you have PSTD, then you need professional help for that. As long as you continue to view yourself as a "casualty of war", you will not be able to move forward in life, and IMO, you will not be able to have a truly healthy relationship with someone else because you don't have a healthy relationship with yourself yet. Honestly, until you can look back at your childhood and really see yourself as a survivor of a horrid divorce that has moved on with their life vs a casualty of a horrid divorce that still relives that divorce daily, you can't truly move forward in life. The fact that you are this upset about *anything* that is currently happening solely between your parents tells me you are still living as a child embroiled in the divorce battle. And that is not something that many people can move past without getting professional help.
I think it's pretty obvious that your father pulled the "I can't pay for your wedding becuase your mother is seeking back support" as a way to leverage your feelings of anger/resentment at your mother to force a settlement that favors him.
And it's working.
You know your parents, both of them. Anything other than, "Got it dad. Settle-up with mom and don't worry about me. We'll have a wedding one way or another." is going to pull you into their battle. They didn't protect you when you were a kid but you can protect yourself as an adult. Do it.
Well, Velvet, at least we can agree on one thing: we both hate pink. I have been in therapy for years...I go twice a week.
Obviously, you are interpreting my term "casualty of war" as literal. I am referring more to psychological warfare. I would never suggest that living through ANY divorce, even one as bad as my parents' divorce, is as bad as surviving genocide.
I think your comment about my not being ready for marriage was premature and a stretch. Say what you want, but I lurk these boards. I see the girls that come on here DEMANDING things of their parents. (See post below about the girl who is pissed that her parents didn't give her a wedding gift, despite the fact that they financially contributed to her wedding.) I see the girls that come on here and take personal stabs or start name-calling. I have done none of that. I have handled all of your critique (even the unnecessarily harsh critique) with grace and poise.
I have been with my FI for over 3 years. He is a wonderful man and treats me very well. He is my best friend and he makes me happy. We live together, pay our bills together, support each other, comfort each other, love each other in good times and in bad...so HOW am I not ready for marriage?
I love it that it's your mother's fault your dad stiffed her for twenty years and she's a bad woman for wanting that money. A lien on the house, by the way, does not require your dad to sell it; it just requires that, when he DOES sell it, he has to pay that judgment. So unless he was planning to refinance his house to pay for your wedding (a SHOCKING thing to do, and not one I would permit anyone to do for me) it is very doubtful that your mother's lien on the property is causing him to have to not pay for your wedding. He's using the lien as an excuse to get out of what he promised you while making her out to be the bad guy Again and you fall for it hook line and sinker.
Get professional help. I know children who are casualties of actual wars. You aren't. Your parents suck; and that's unfortunate. But your dramatic self victimization and over the top descriptions of yourself are laughable; and the fact that you cannot see it is pitiful. GET HELP.
Yet...in your other post you act like your brother is being ridiculous for suggesting that your parents couldn't possibly handle themselves near each other. And in this post, you say that everything was peaceful for 20 years before your mom ruined everything by laying a claim to money that's legally hers. So which one is it? Oh wait, you just say whatever you think will help your argument at the time. Sorry about your pretty pink princess day, it must be horrible to be an adult and still be dependent on other people for things you want.
This. I sympathize with you about feeling put in the middle, but you're a grown woman. If you cut them out of your life, you'll regret the time lost when things settle down again, and they eventually will. This sounds like a fantastic excuse to elope.
If we could do our wedding again, DH and I would go smaller, save a bundle, and put it toward our student loans. We'll be paying on them until we're into our 40's.
I don't want to speak for Velvet, but I think she made really clear why you're not ready for marriage. You don't see yourself as having survived a miserable childhood and thrived in spite of it, you still view yourself as a 'casualty' of it. Besides the melodrama which speaks of extreme immaturity, you're still in the phase of your life that's about your parents and what they've done to you. IMO you need to be past that before you're ready for marriage.
As I said in my PP, my childhood sucked too, I have awful parents and I no longer speak to my mother, but it doesn't define me. I don't wear it as my badge of 'feel bad for me!!!!!!' and you seem to. From what you've posted your dad has bought your loyalty over your mom and it has worked. What does your therapist think about all of this?
I'm curious, how old are you?
They had gotten a LOT better in recent years. They were AWFUL when I was a child, but over the last 5 years, they WERE getting better. I NEVER said everything was peaceful for 20 years. Reading comprehension fail.
Sigh. I said that this was complex. I'm thinking maybe I should just stop talking and let you all continue to misunderstand.
Yes, I took it as literal, since that is how you used it several times and even continued to use it after I called you on it the first time. I am not the only one that did. There is very little in life that I get offended by, nonchalantly comparing things to the horrors and tragedy of real war offends me.
If you read my advice, IMO you aren't ready for marriage as long as you identify yourself as a "casualty of war". Which, as of two hours ago, you were still doing. But hey, IMO, the majority of posters here aren't truly ready for marriage--good thing for them (and you) my opinion has no influence on their lives. But you ask for opinions and people will give them.
I really understand your disappointment, I would be disappointed too in your situation. However, other posters are right, you should have waited until you had the money in hand and even so, spending it on debt wasn't a waste.
My DH lost his job last year and has two daughters from a previous marriage. We were able to send half his unemployment each month for child support but it didn't cover the whole amount and the court wouldn't adjust the income because job loss wasn't an eligible reason for child support reduction. So, my DH owed back child support. We got several letters in the mail saying how much he owed and what the consequences were: he would be unable to get a passport, the money would be taken out of his tax refund etc. Unfortunately it's also on his credit report. I really don't think your dad could go all that time without knowing he owed that money. The courts have consequences when you don't pay court ordered money and they can't execute those consequences without notifying you.
DH just asked what I was writing so I told him your story, he said "oh hell yeah he knew he owed that money." Sorry but your dad isn't innocent in all this.
I'M thinking that maybe you should cut the crap and realize that, if nearly everyone here is telling you that you're being an overdramatic martyr, you should listen to them. Instead of choosing to believe that everyone, including your mommy and daddy, is ganging up on poor widdle you just to torment you and put you through "psychological warfare."
Nobody's misunderstanding here except you, honey.
I am not going to sit here and tell you that you are being unreasonable for being upset, you were told something, situations arose and now what you were counting on is no longer there. I understand how that could be upsetting. Cutting your parents out of your life is going to hurt you, even if you think it won't, there will be times when you need them, or miss them and you shouldn't burn your bridges.
I am sure your dad feels bad about it, although you have had a rough childhood, for him to offer means that he cares and for him to have to possibly withdrawl that I am sure upsets him. If he can't do it then he can't do it, but don't cut your parents out of your life for this, its disappointing I am sure, but the marriage is really about you and your FI becoming one, the bells and whistles are nice but its not the point. And if it means that much to you, then save for awhile and have the wedding you want. I
Is there anyway that maybe your mom might accept the money that is going towards your wedding to be deducted from the amount he owes her, or maybe some of it? Maybe if you explained the situation she might consider it?
Separations are hard on a family, and I am sorry that this has happened to you, but this just money, its replaceable, your parents are not.
Good luck
If I were in your situation I would be upset, extremely disappointed and frustrated.
But you can't control your parents' actions, you can only control your reactions.
I don't think your childhood is all together tragic or horrible. It wasn't perfect, but it is nothing to cut your parents out of your life over. There comes a time when a child grows up and needs to accept their parent for who they are and not the perfect beings they expect them to be. Figure out what you can realistically expect from your parents and let go of the rest. You only have one mother and one father. Above all else, be the one who doesn't feed the drama (i take the high road)..
we had a wonderful, beautiful wedding with around 100 people for around $5k. true, my parents paid for it, but frankly, i think it's ridiculous to spend loads of money on one day when that money can be used for other things that are ultimately, more important. (they offered us much more; i said thank you, $5k should be just fine.) my wedding day was important, don't get me wrong, but overall, it was just one day.
some co-workers and i were having a discussion earlier this week (and my sil has expressed this to me in the past as well) about how, after years of being married, we look back at our wedding and think how, if we could do it over, we would spend a lot less money on the actual wedding and reception.
geez... everyone is throwing you under the bus! I know how it is to be thrown in the middle of a nasty divorce. And it sucks. But I've had to realize a lot of the anger I feel against my mother has just been culminating over the years... I feel like this might be the straw that broke the camels back for you.
Planning a wedding is pretty stressful, then this is added on. My husband and I had to pay for our entire wedding and honeymoon. It wasn't elaborate but it was elegant and beautiful... We decided what meant the most to us in the wedding and spent our money on that. The best way to prove you are smarter and more adult than your parentsis to not rely on them in any way anymore. Then you won't have things to be disappointed about in the future!
That's exactly what I was thinking. The only way her dad would have to pay her mom immediately would be if he was planning on selling or refinancing. This way the $50,000 would come out of the proceeds of the sale. I think that was the nicest way of settling it instead of garnishing his wages.
It's amazing how posters on a message board seem to know your parents better than you do, isn't it? How they can 'bet' that your father did this and your mother is that. Wow. And I just love Miss Smug who advises you not to get married, because SHE doesn't think you're ready. And she would know, right? A few posts on this board and people can tell you how you should live your life...screw your own plans, they know better! What a bunch of self-righteous loons. Let me guess, you're all perfect. Yeah, right. If everyone was scrutinized for their faults then not many people would be getting married, including some (if not all) of the posters on here. Anyway, I don't recall you asking for their opinion on whether you should get married or not, so maybe they should stick to the original request.
OP, forget your parents; this is your wedding, pay for it yourself and side with whichever parent you want. YOU know them better than all of the losers on here. But don't let your parents dictate your life, shrug them both off if you have to. Continue with the counseling and be nice to your guy. Appreciate what you have and forget the rest. Good luck.
Family dynamics are a hard thing to handle, wedding & money not included & so I get the frustration when the characters involved don't make things easy.
That being said, I agree with some PP that you should start over with the wedding $. But keep in mind:
A couple of thoughts come to mind about your situation. I do not know your parents or the entire situation. However, it seems that manipulation and sneeky tactics have come up in the past so maybe there are some other twists to the situation.
First, perhaps your father did know about the additional debt to you mother. And perhaps he offered you $20,000 for your wedding in hopes of your mother seeing that since he is helping their daughter out maybe he shouldn't have to pay all of his debt to her. Maybe he was hoping to get you in the middle to somehow help out his situation.
Second, this "out of the blue" request your mother had for her owed money could perhaps be because she has something she wishes to use it for. Maybe a sudden engagement announcement got her to thinking that she is interested in making a financial contribution to your wedding. Some of this owed money would help her be able to do so.
Again, I do not know your parents but I think the situation is much more complicated and flat out dirty than you even know. The best thing to do here is not count on a financial contribution from anyone for your wedding. Yes, it is very disappointing but that is most likely how it will need to be.
Also, answer the calls from your mother. If you do not, you have put yourself in the middle of their mess. If you answer and she wants to talk about your father, the money, etc. just tell her that you are not interested and change the subject. If she will not drop it, then you have reason to not answer the phone. It sounds like you are making a judgement before you truely know why she is calling.
Good luck and I hope things turn around for you.