September 2009 Weddings
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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: Not to beat a dead horse, but....
I don't speak for Smo (
), but this gets a big fat yes from me. I think it's mocking Christianity. I don't have a problem with Mary or MB's siggies, even if I don't agree with them (not saying I don't), because they aren't mocking anything.
OK, so honestly.... can we safely say that this beaten horse is officially dead?
updated 10.03.12
If you put a raptor on the middle cross of three, and have "Raptor Jesus" in the text... yes.
It is taking something that is significant to Christians (see Nat's post below about the cross), and using dinosaurs that have often been the topic of debates of creation vs. evolution in place of it. It does seem mocking, to me. Which is why I replied what I did in that post.
Zuma Zoom
That poor horse!!!!
i'm not arguing with you (for once) i'm just trying to understand what you (and others) find to be offensive from Arb's post and why differing beliefs on another hot button issue isn't worth a debate.
FTR, i didnt enter into the Arb's siggy debate because i dont find religious or anti-religious debates to be offensive because it isnt something that i feel that strongly about. so im not saying either "side" is right or wrong.
I totally get that my sense of humor isn't quite on the same level as most others, and I'm okay with that. If your personal faith makes you feel convicted to voice your opinions about Raptor Jesus, then I fully stand behind that.
If what you want is an apology, then okay, I am sorry that some people are feeling offended by my signature. But I'm not mocking anything. I am a born again Christian. I pray, I read my Bible, I am very active in my church community and in my relationship with God. I also happen to find Raptor Jesus to be hilarious. The stuff that comes up when you google it is so over the top ridiculous, that it's hard for me not to laugh at it.
Plus, I like Jurassic Park.
I also think this is funny -
I'm offended by this. It's clearly animal cruelty and Ames use of the word "gangsta" just puts me over the top. I've kept my mouth shut throughout this whole argument but this I just can't take. I had to speak up!
Goes back to keeping mouth shut because I have nothing constructive to add that hasn't already been said.
Lately, I've felt that there's this animosity towards SMo because she's disagreed with the big players here (MB, stees, Ames, and more recently mary, neuner) in the past and no one is willing to bury the hatchet and move on.
Basically, she's said some things that one of you have disagreed with, and you've held a grudge and generally support each other in these grudges. So, if someone was insensitive to one of the big players - ALL of them come in defending them - "don't use the word broad", but if someone who is NOT a big player is offended by something, the big players jump in together and call that person too sensitive "racisim isn't a big problem anymore". So, who exactly is the hypocrite?
Then passive aggressive comments are made saying that the people being offended live in some bubble, or are biased because they can't look outside their own world. Not for nothing, but we ALL live in our own world and look through our own lenses. None of us have the same experience and NO ONE has the right to say that something that someone has dealt with or is bothered by is invalid. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
And, apparently anyone who disagrees with the big players is on the SMo "team". I'm guessing the team consists of me, mcd, DD, maybe tela... To be honest, I jump in more on her behalf because she DOESN'T have the lot of you defending her. And I think she has valid, thought-out points and an interesting perspective. But if we are a "team", how is that any different than the big player "team"?
I don't hate anyone here and I don't claim to be free from error myself. I fully admit to being sensitive about certain subjects and ignorant of others. I wasn't offended by a lot of things mentioned, but I certainly understand others feeling offended. I have always liked this board and enjoy 90% of the discussions, but lately it really has felt like you're not allowed to agree with the stronger voices because you'll just be attacked. And that's really sad because hearing each others' point of view and trying to understand their experiences is the big advantage of a board like this. Exposure to something different.
| cute shoes make me happy |
I'm not trying to argue either. honest.
I was explaining my take on the signature and why it could be viewed as offensive. I know there are also a lot of more fundamental Christians that tend to set up a bad example of Christians. Not speaking of any Niners, btw.
The signatures that I've seen about it are often in response to ignorant and often judgmental remarks by people for the 'sake' of Christ. So, I get more offended that the signatures I've seen tend to stereotype Christians. Also, that people are just more open about mocking Christians. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
Zuma Zoom
i was going to post the same thing! but settled with "that poor horse" instead.
I promise, no horses were harmed in the making of the Photoshopped image! ;p
updated 10.03.12
personally, Smo and I have butted heads going back to over a year ago so my disagreements with Smo have nothing to do with animosity that has stemmed from any recent debate. we have differing opinions on a LOT of subjects. that is perfectly fine, she is entitled to her opinion and i am entitled to mine. do i think sometimes she feels her opinion is more right than mine and does that p!ss me off? sure. but sometimes i think i'm more right than she is so i'm just as guilty.
as far as burying the hatchet, i can have a civil conversation with Smo and have done so. do we have different view points? yes. do i hate her? not every day
i dont see that as hypocrisy though. i see that as coming from opposite sides of the table but being woman enough to agree to disagree.
RE the recent argument, i have no opinion and it has nothing to do with Smo/Tela/DD/you/McD being the ones to voice your opinion. it wouldnt matter to me if Ames was offended. i can see both sides and it doesnt affect me personally.
So the horse is just "sleeping" eh? Nice argument...my mom tried that one on me when my goldfish "fell asleep" and "wanted to go on vacation to China via the underground fish subway"," aka: the toilet. I'm no fool, MB.
I think that it is unfair to classify people on "teams". I get along with almost everyone here, and I have reached out to people on Riss' definition of "Smo's Team" as many times as I have anyone else. If I feel like someone is going through something, and I feel like I can relate to them or could lend an ear, I frequently will send an email or a pm or a fb note because we're a community and that's what people do.
And really, to say people are "major players" really only means people who post more. And recently there are no "bigger players" on a board where DD or Smo or me or Rach or Christina or Amelia or any number of other people are posting every single day.
I feel like Riss' post is really devicive and accomplishes nothing. How's that for passive aggressive? Oh wait, my aggression isn't really directed at this board nor is it passive.
If I disagree with you and I feel like there's something I can contribute, I say it. If there's nothing I can say that is going to change the way people feel, then sometimes it isn't a conversation, and I feel like other people need to realize that.
Also, I LIKE this board. Not have liked, not used to like. I understand there are going to be days or weeks or months where people disagree or whatever. It is a part of life in group dynamics.
And like I said in like the 3rd post in here, most of the time people handle things with appropriate discourse, sometimes they don't and it ends up the way the post was yesterday. Being able to civilly discuss your perspective and support it with a rational point of view is different than classifying other people as bullies or name callers or racists or anti-Christian or whatever it is for the day because you refuse to see another person's point (you can put your own personal lens aside, and I do it a lot when trying to work with people from different groups), and that is when the discussion turns into a disagreement and turns hostile.
Stand up for something you believe in.
In all seriousness, it's not that I'm not willing to "bury the hatchet" over past arguments. It's that Smo (and others) and I have different world views and we frequently disagree. I try my best to be diplomatic and civil, and I appreciate it when others show me the same courtesy.
The reason I often back up those I'm close with (Stees, MB, JA, etc) is because I share similar beliefs, values, and opinions with them. That's why we're such good friends. But, if at any time I think any one of them is wrong, they're the first to know it, whether it's on or off board. I understand that the same is true for Smo, yourself, DD, and whomever else is considered to be on your "team".
If anyone here has a problem with me, and I mean ANYONE, I wish they'd come to me with it. I'd be perfectly willing to hash it out.
Okay I am going to open my mouth up about this because I'm kind of annoyed that Arb came on, stated her piece and no one has acknowledged it. I share her opinion, I'm a Christian of the Baptist persuation, I have five pastors in my family and I still think this is hilarious, both Raptor Jesus and BRB Jesus; but as I've stated previously I'm probably one of the hardest people to offend. I just still really don't see how it's offensive enough to cause all the hoopla that has ensued for two days now. I'm not saying the people who are offended by it are stupid or in the wrong and that they shouldn't be offended, that is not at all my intent, I just personally don't find it to be offensive. I'm also glad Arb came on here to explain herself, though I don't really feel like she should have had to in the first place.
I completely agree that designating teams is unfair, and unhealthy. I was actually referring to someone who had called SMo out for having a "team". It's not really my definition.
The major players are the ones that post more, but they're also the ones that have a bigger impact on the attitudes and acceptable responses on the board. I'm not saying they are TRYING to bully or anything...everyone who posts plays a part in who becomes the "big player". The opinions of those few are generally more powerful, especially if they have a few people that always come to their defense.
My post isn't any more divisive than any of the posts involving SW2B, but you've never called anyone out for that...and it accomplishes something if the people that feel like they can't voice their opinion because they'll get steamrolled at least feel like their feelings are expressed. And it accomplishes more if the stronger voices on the board reflect on it, and try to be a bit more understanding of other viewpoints.
Mary, I've gone to you in the past when I've been concerned and you have stood up for me. I appreciate your strength and I think you make excellent points. I'm not saying you're guilty of all of it or that you're the problem. But you can come off as if your way is the smartest and anyone who doesn't agree with you is foolish or immature or needs to expose them self to more. I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but it happens.
I also think you try really hard to stay neutral, which can't be easy.
| cute shoes make me happy |
First of all, I'm DED at the "winning" lol!
I think it's logical that we're gong to back up those who share the same beliefs, but I also think that you can respect and even support someone with opposing beliefs. Someone can say they have the opposite opinion and we can all ask them how they came to that, and try to understand it. "Hmm that's an interesting take on it...I'm still more on this side of the fence, but I can see where you are coming from". More often than not, it becomes defensive and it doesn't need to be. We're not going to solve major hot topic issues here, but we can understand the other side of the equation better.
| cute shoes make me happy |
I think that the second paragraph of your response is true (sorry no bold or underline on chrome)- sometimes the group becomes a wave that crushes over people; but in this case, I feel like it seemed to be 2 distinct camps instead.
As far as the SW2B stuff, I generally stay out of conversations that can get people banned because of my role, and the things that I worked (almost constantly) on for most of the first months/ posts where things got out of hand were out of sight- so it isn't that I didn't do anything or think they were devicive, it is just that I couldn't handle them on board.
I feel like I can talk to you Riss, which is why I wrote what I did publicly in a post. I know that you didn't take the post the wrong way, and that I could say that I felt like it was devicive without you flying off the handle. You wouldn't assume me saying that about your post means that I hate you or that I'm not respecting your opinion. And you usually do a good job of being balanced, which as you said, staying neutral in many of these things isn't always possible or easy.
I also understand that sometimes I can come off as overly intellectual, or kind of a know it all. I accept that. I own it. I swear some days I was born 30 years old and have aged ever since.
I don't mean to make other people feel like less for their opinions, but sometimes I feel like I have also been where someone is standing and have more experience or more knowledge on a particular subject area that has changed my point of view and I want to expose them to that too- and it is a fine line I don't always navigate perfectly, so I can accept that too and say I'm learning and I'm trying. I also apologize when I think it is justified, and it takes a pretty big person to do that in some circumstances.
I really hope everyone feels like they can come to me if they feel like there's an issue because I am always receptive and will at least submit it to another person (Nest Mod Board or Nest Gods) if I feel like I'm unable to be impartial. But, that being said, those are all people too and I can think of at least one incident where the Nest Gods said no, there was no TOS violation, and someone wasn't really happy about it. From there my hands are tied.
Sigh. It is an imperfect world.
Stand up for something you believe in.
I think on a board full of women, there's always going to be some kind of divide or "teams". Its inevitable. Especially when most of us talk off board. Someone posts and doesnt hear the answer she expects, gets questioned and is immediately on the D, etc and then she talks about it off board with another lady and then the two of them stick together. The nest time someone pisses either of them off, the two band together and the group just grows. Thats just the way it is on message boards.
What you have to decide is this: are you really going to truely be offended by something someone says and then be sassy to her the next time around be she happened to offend you weeks ago? You can. However you'll be miserable and unpleasant. And really? That's your own damn problem. If you're going to waste your time being pissed at a few girls because of something that happened awhile ago and you still hold a grudge, well then....I dunno what to tell ya. That's life. Again, work it out.
I can honestly say that there is only one person here that I can think of who is truely malicious in 99% of their posts and only posts to piss people off. The rest of the time I really do feel like most people are just being sarcastic or trying to be funny. Like I said yesterday, maybe if we all stopped acting like every little thing that's said is said to purposely hurt or offend us then entire place would be a hell of a lot more fun. Its not always about you (the collective you). Stop defaulting to "OMG! What a biitch! She only said that because she's taking a jab at me from an arguement we had 4 months ago".
Maybe if you're really pissed about something someone said, try PMing them to work it out. I wonder if doing so would cut out a lot of the feelings of "team"ness. If you're offended or hurt, be a big girl and discuss it with the person you're pissed at. PRIVATELY. You two can work it out without having others swoop in and defend the person so you feel out numbered.
I just got home and am catching up, but I totally ditto this. My point exactly!
I'm very late to this, but feel compelled to chime in.
Mac is right. This is basic human nature. It's not right, it's not always good, but it happens. Internet boards are a microcosm of society, in many ways. And life is high school. I firmly believe that.
I also agree with the first part of this bolded statement: For the most part, the women here who post are not malicious and do not set out to harm someone else in a vindictive manner. (SW2B is a whole other ball of wax, but MB's post the other day to JW is up for debate; personally, I think it was done solely with the intention to make JW feel bad, and the fact that she responded and gave some reasons for why she had gone off, admittedly irrationally, last week--and one of those reasons included some possible complications with her pregnancy, which should not be discounted under any circumstances and the fact that people who posted support to JW for whatever health issues she's going through right now were blasted speaks volumes. Don't pretend it doesn't. If the roles had been reversed and MB or Ames had been in JW's position a year ago, the subsequent posts would have been VERY different. And you know they would have. If one of the "minor" players had called one of them out and they had pre-natal issues, there would have been a sh!tstorm of responses in their defense. )
I get what you're saying, and there are definitely instances when two people who are at loggerheads with eachother perhaps need to take it off-board or at least try to work it out civilly on the board (one could argue that since the whole board is oftentimes subjected to the entire argument on-board, it would make sense to see the reconciliation take place on board..but maybe that's a personal preference thing).
But in regard to the recent conflict, the thing is...I think Tela was maybe questioning why the other people who have a history of expressing/defending their Christianity hadn't shown any offense at the siggy pic. (Another parenthetical aside: For the record, I was not offended by Tree's sig. I guess it is an attempt at humor, but I don't find it particularly funny, The BRB one, however, was hilarious. But I appreciate Tree's explanation today, and respect her for it.)
But the thing is, Tree was never really the sticking point of this whole drama. The sticking point was the posters who came out and utterly lambasted those who voiced their feelings about the siggy pic. Neuner's post, in particular, made me bristle. The whole "lighten up" and "there are more important things in the world" lecturing tone was, well, off-putting, I wanted to post a response this morning and applaud Tela for standing up, but was too much of a p*ssy to do it. And i regret that.
There's been a lot of back and forth about "no one's opinion is more important than anyone else's" and that's all good and well, but the truth is that reality shows otherwise. The divisiveness (spelling!) of the board only showcases that more, because the underlying sentiment really says otherwise.
Think about it. If I had posted a picture of a puppy being kicked with a funny tagline along the lines of "kicking puppies is cool!" (with the intention being to not offend or upset anyone), how many people on this board of very vocal dog lovers would express their feelings of outrage? Quite a few, I would harbor a guess.
And then if a handful of people had posted, "Gee, it's just a joke, settle down people. There's a nuclear meltdown pending in Japan. People are dead. Lighten up." How many people would be able to actually lighten up? For real. How many? Cause that example sig pic would be a joke to me, but for those people who feel strongly about animal rights or dogs in particular would not doubt bring their own feelings to the discussion. And the wave would be overwhelming.
I think THAT is what Tela, Smo, DD, Riss et al were responding to. And the truth is that, sometimes, it seems that a handful of people on the board DO tend to cry foul when it's something they don't like, but when they exhibit the same behavior to different posters, everything is fine. And that is f*cked up. Again, if the roles were reversed, think about how frustrating that could be.
Personally, as Mary mentioned, Riss and I had a possible run-in last week when I cracked a joke in a post about Catholicism, and Riss called me out and I posted a response on the board, explaining my side and apologizing, and she accepted. And it was done. But that doesn't always happen. We were lucky.
So, will this type of thing ever end? Probably not. Like Smo said, wisely, this stuff rears its head every few months. Can we find a better way of dealing with it when these things pop up? I would like to think so.
Apparently I am the one on the chopping block, sorry I missed so much of this conversation today. I stand by my opinion that some people are taking things too personally. Everyone else has the right to stand by their opinion as well. It is what it is. I'm not going to argue over who is right, because these are all just opinions, nothing more.
I'm usually pretty PC around here, it's not really in my nature to intentionally offend anyone. But I'm not going to tiptoe around and censor what I say because some people are overly sensitive. I respect most of the ladies on here, and I will continue to be a part of conversations here. I just hope we can all learn a little after the conversations of the past few days and move on.
Mary - I appreciate your response. I don't think you or Neuner are huge offenders in any way....just that sometimes I felt your responses were influenced by the person posting, rather than the conent. I think you both add valuable insight here.
I agree with most of neuner, mac and mcd's responses (sorry, feeling too lazy to quote!) and especially what neuner said above. Let's try to think before responding in haste....instead of being annoyed that someone is overly-sensitive, it's a simpler resolution to ask why they feel that way, explain your point of view in a non-abrasive way and amicably agree to disagree.
| cute shoes make me happy |
I think that this is an important thing to have said. It shows that you dont "always" agree with them. And I've seen MB and Ames slightly go at it on the board before (TK maybe? cant remember, but I know I've seen it).
I rarely voice my opinion on critical topics, just because I am so emotional about things and I would take things personally that I might not should, as neuner talks about. But I think that it's important for there to not be "teams" on the board. we might share the same beliefs and interests as other people on the board, but I think that the board has unified in multiple occasions to show that, like a family, we might disagree some or most of the time, but when it boils down to it, it's never malicious or spiteful.
i feel like i should just clarify this whole "team" thing.
DD accused MB, Ames, and I of being on a "team". I took offense to that because I feel like we are close and share the same beliefs, we are friends. we arent a "team". we dont pack together to gang up on other people or rally our arguments.
and in turn, i accused DD, Smo, and McD of being a "team" as well. i think that they would classify themselves as having the same beliefs and therefore understand each other and often times say the same things in an argument/debate. which is how Ames, MB, and I feel about each other. i only felt that it was fair that if DD was accusing me of being a "team" she should admit that she herself was part of the same type of group.
like i said, i personally wouldnt classify MB, Ames, and I as a team, and I wouldnt necessarily classify McD, DD, and Smo as a team either. I just think each group either together or individually often times has a different perspective on the same subject.
Honestly, I dont know much about the specifics of the drama that's been going on the past few days, just the jist of it. My comments werent directed at anyone in particular, more like th eentire board because we seem to have some kind of drama like this weekly. If its not one thing, its the other. And frankly, its exhausting. I mean, some of you ask why the board is so dead. Really? It doesnt seem to be hard to figure out.
I dont have anything against anyone here and I truely enjoy talking to all of you. I'm not going to pick sides because...well...thats stupid. I dont have the energy for it. So I'll just continue to be honest and call it like I see it.
I'll ditto this:
we might share the same beliefs and interests as other people on the board, but I think that the board has unified in multiple occasions to show that, like a family, we might disagree some or most of the time, but when it boils down to it, it's never malicious or spiteful.
If you cant handle the bolded statement and react like an adult instead of a whiney 5th grader, then I really encourage you to think a little more about being part of any internet board.