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Pet Food Question
I asked on Pets (granted, on the weekend) and didn't get any answers. Since I know there are quite a few pet people on this board.. help? If you can, please reply on this post because I hate to go back through the posts on Pets to see if anyone answered since it's already on page 2. C&P from my post:
We are feeding our 2 boxers California Natural Lamb & Rice Puppy food. We feed 3 times a day - 1 cup in the AM with a tablespoon of plain yogurt added, 2 cups in the afternoon with Missing Link & salmon oil added, 1 cup in the evening with a tablespoon of canned pumpkin.
We have been noticing loose stools lately - they haven't been getting into anything, nothing has changed with their diets.
Chloe, our white boxer, has had stomach issues which is why we ended up on California Natural in the first place.
First off - do you think the loose stools are a problem? We've had their feces tested for parasites/worms and everything checks out fine. Our vet suggests Hills Rx Diet, we aren't wanting to go that route. They still have a great appetite, aren't losing weight or anything, but their stool ranges from firm to watery on a daily basis. If you think we should change food - what would you suggest we start with? We'd prefer to find something around the same price point as the California Natural Lamb & Rice Puppy - which is $58 for the large (30lb?) bag, but obviously finding a good food is important...
TIA!
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
Re: Pet Food Question
Mr. Sammy Dog
Loose stools are worse without yogurt.. and their stinky gas is way worse without yogurt...
I don't know if the loose stools are unhealthy? It's firm in the morning and very soft at the end of the night. It's always sorta been this way with Chloe, but it's worse now since we've brought Jenson home.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
It's the food than. We had that problem with Kaiser when he was a puppy as well. We started him on Blue Buffalo and then started having really loose stools, took him to the vet and performed every test under the sun only to find out he's got a grain allergy. We switched him to Innova Evo Chicken and he was fine until about 6 months ago when it started again...but because of the allergy we were expecting it because if they have an allergy they only get worse as they age. They're now on red meat Innova because Lamb is a last resort for a dog with allergies.
Also are you giving heartworm medication? We found out Kaiser couldn't use Heartgard specifically because he would get loose everytime we gave that specific brand to him. He's been fine since we switched him.
I know absolutely nothing about owning a bigger dog but is it possible that they're getting too much food? Some of the higher quality food is a lot more filling with a lesser Kilocal so you wouldn't need to feed them as much to fill them up. While it may seem like not alot our dogs only eat 2x a day and get 1/3 cup in the AM and 1/3 cup in the PM and that's it (but they're only 24 & 26lb dogs).
Poor pups!
I wonder if the yogurt and the pumpkin every day is just too much? I don't know but our two can't handle that much. If you want the probiotics you can get a tablet that they eat.
With that many loose stools, do you notice if the anal glands are being expressed? That would be something to watch for if their poop never hardens.
We feed Wellness Super5Mix in whitefish/potato mix. We buy from Amazon and it's $53 a bag with free Prime shipping. We go through 2 bags a month. Each pup gets 3 cups a day in two feedings.
Maybe try switching to twice a day feedings.
I also wonder if maybe you're feeding too much. M2 is about 60# and M1 is about 50# and they each get 3 cups a day. I am guessing your boxers are bigger, but maybe it is too much food for them.
Also, if it is the Heartgard you are supposed to give milk thistle with it to help the body.
*M&M* Super Pitbulls
I would suspect that they are getting too much pumpkin. Pumpkin can work both ways - it can firm up loose stools, but it can also loosen stools too. It's very weird how it works.
I would ease up on the pumpkin for awhile and see how they do.
Yes, loose stools permanently is a problem because it signals something isn't working right, and you can get problems with impacted anal glands and such.
I had a similar problem with our dog when we first got her. We were feeding her Wellness Super5 Small Breed, and even with nightly pumpkin (which is magic for firming up or loosening, whatever you need!), she had very loose stools. I switched to Wellness Core, the fish variety, and she's been absolutely great on it, with very firm stools. It isn't cheap, but you can sign up for Wellness's emails, and they email out coupons very regularly. And if you shop at Chuck and Don's, you'll also get quarterly money back as a coupon on your mailer too.
Have you considered going grain-free? CA Naturals is an ok food, but it doesn't contain much meat. I know that's ideal when you are dealing with potential allergies, but perhaps the meat that is in it doesn't agree with them. I know fish tends to be less problematic than other protein sources. My dog, for instance, doesn't tolerate chicken very well, which is a very common protein source in dog foods and treats.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Chloe was losing weight when we cut back the amount of food to 3 cups (and then 3.5 as we tried to up it to see if she'd balance out) - and Jenson is underweight and needs to gain about 5 more pounds. That is how we ended up with the 4 cup amount. She is able to maintain weight at 4 cups a day - she is an incredibly active dog.
We switched to California Natural with Chloe because she was having really runny stool on Chicken Soup for Puppies (granted, that is a super rich food, but we just needed to start with something for her.) I hate how much of a guessing game it can be with food!
I'm not at all opposed to going grain free - I've read conflicting information about going grain free with Boxers and with going grain free with young dogs. It's so hard to know what information to go by and what sources to value over others.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
They aren't getting heartworm meds at the moment - we decided to not do the meds in December-March because there aren't any mosquitos. We are starting up again in April..
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
Sorry, but.. I'm not sure what anal glands being expressed looks like. What should I be looking for? I feel dumb asking that....
I've never heard of milk thistle with Heartgard - can you give more info?
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
I hate that.
I'm grateful there are so many pets people in MN that I can ask questions to!
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
How old is Chloe? We were feeding Wellness Puppy until M1 was 1 year old. It was the only thing she could handle, despite it having chicken.
Neither can handle chicken now. But they do very well on the whitefish/sweet potato mix.
From your picture both dogs look to be at good weights.
Anal glands secrete a fluid that is different consistency and color in each dog. But you'll see if covering a normal poop, it usually is watery. It is forced out by the pressure of the normal poop. If the poop is too watery for too long it can be expelled and dogs get very uncomfortable. If a dog is scooting across the floor it is usually because they need to express their glands. If they continue to not be expressed you'll have to go in to the vet (or learn to DIY, it's not hard, just gross). The smell is nasty and sticks to your hands like garlic. Tooth paste works wonders to get it out.
ETA: As for the milk thistle, we don't use it (we should though). I can't get it anywhere around where we live. Our country vet doesn't say anything about it one way or another. I've read a bit about it online and the Pets board recommends it. The current recommendation is for Heartgard to be given 12 months a year, even in MN. We don't and even though the vet recommends it, she is fine that we don't do it.
*M&M* Super Pitbulls
The anal gland smell is very distinctive and to me smells like metallic tuna. Renzo has expressed his glands a couple of times on the blanket on our couch (
) and did no butt scooting at all prior to that. I would keep your nose to the wind and make sure you don't smell anything funky in their butt regions. It might be worth having your vet check their glands just in case - it can be a nasty problem if something happens to them.
You can DIY with the expressing, but I just prefer to have my vet do it. We've only had to do it once with Scout, and that was last month. At his annual check up she noticed that they were a little blocked and expressed them. It STINKS to high heaven and I was very appreciative that she did it for us. He wasn't a scooter, but dogs that need it will scoot their behinds across the floor like they're trying to wipe their behind.
Just when we thought we found a good food, we ran into a bad batch which caused all sorts of issues.
I have no advice, but I can empathize. I hate the dog food game.
margaritas in mexico
Heartgard doesn't just protect against mosquitos it also protects against things that dogs may eat that they shouldn't, just as an FYI. My one dog has a propensity to try and sneak a scooby snack, or eat anything that he sees outside, and heartgard protects against parasites that they can pick up eating other dog's poo. So we run it all year long.
Chloe is 13 months old. We aren't exaclty sure on Jenson - based on his teeth, they say he's about a year. Personality-wise, I'd agree with that.
Chloe is finally at a good weight - but because she's white it always looks like her ribs are sticking out. Jenson has put on 3 pounds since we got him 3 weeks ago, but the vet would like to see him but on just a few more. He was really bony (could see his spine, hips looked pokey) when we got him, we can tell a big difference in just the 3 pounds he's put on.
This sounds gross - but when they have solid poops, they are "glazed" looking - does that make sense? Based on what you wrote - I assume that the "glaze" is the secretion from the anal glands?
In regards to Heartgard - our vets go both ways on it - they say that it's recommended 12 months out of the year, but our vent is totally fine that we aren't doing it in the winter. People with MN Boxer Rescue vary in their opinions of this too - there are people that are doing year round and others that are doing the same as us.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
Eew! Yeah - no butt scooting happens in our house, but I have noticed "butt grease" on Chloe's bed - that sounds awful, but sometimes you can tell that there is something that came out that wasn't poop but isn't perfume either. I realize that it's anal gland secretions, but I don't know that I knew it was called that..
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
Are you feeding puppy food for a specific reason? Since they are both over a year you could switch to an adult food or ALS food and it wouldn't be as rich as puppy food.
If the poop is firm you shouldn't have to worry about to anal glands, it's when they are loose for an extended time that it becomes a problem.
The glazed-ness is probably the secretions. They are secreted to lubricate the anus and so that is probably what you're seeing. It usually isn't a large amount.
If you think it might be a problem you could get some gloves, lube, and a paper towel to check it out. They are located at 8oclock and 4 oclock. They feel like peas and you massage it. Keep a the towel over the anus so that it doesn't shoot out and wipe it down afterwards. Or just go to the vet!
I've only done it once with M1 and never with M2, thankfully.
*M&M* Super Pitbulls
Renzo's #2's are always firm and healthy looking and he still has had problems with his glands. I'd be hesitant to say not to worry about the glands at all if the #2's are good because that isn't always the case.
That's true. I'm sorry Renzo has problems with his glands, it's not fun to deal with. Most of the time glands are expressed through normal pooping. It's always a good idea to keep an eye on it though.
*M&M* Super Pitbulls
We are feeding puppy food because we have just heard to feed puppy food until they are about 2 years old... Again - one of those things where it's so hard to find consistent, reliable information!
Any good food resources people might suggest for me?
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
I have found that the employees at the Chuck & Dons near Lake Calhoun are really knowledgeable about food. (They might be at other locations too...that is the only one we've been to.)
I think I would switch them to an ALS (all life stages) food.
We shop at the C&D's in Bloomington - and *most* employees there are also great about food.
I asked Jenson's foster family what they fed him (and their golden retriever) and they were doing Natural Balance - Sweet Potato and Duck. It's an ALS food - maybe we'll try that? It's the same price as the CA Natural (at least the CA Natural puppy food) so it won't be a sticker shock at least.. We go thru about 30 pounds every 2 weeks!
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
I know I am late..... I feel your pain! It took us a long time and a lot of trial and error with dog food for our puppy. Since they are over a year old you could move them off puppy food. No puppy food really worked for our girl. When we went grain free that is what helped the most. There are quite a few ALS grain free foods out there. Natural Balance is nice because they have limited ingredient formulas so it is a little easier to narrow down what they may have issues with. We tried a few grain free options before trying Natural Balance. We started with the fish and sweet potato and also used the venison and sweet potato. That finally helped our girl. Now we are feeding Nature's Domain which is a grain free food at Costco. She is doing great on it, and it is cheap! Only like $30 for a 35lb bag.
Unfortunately it may be some trial and error. But Chuck and Don's is good with returns too, so if you try a food and it gets worse, they should take it back.
Good luck!!
I hear ya!! We go through huge bags of food like it's going out of style!
We started mixing in some Nature's Domain from Costco into the Solid Gold to save some money.
A 35# bag of Nature's Domain = $27! The Solid Gold is $60!
Are you Costco members? Nature's Domain gets a collective thumbs up from the Pets board. It comes in two flavors - a red bag or a blue bag, I forget what each one is. I think the blue is salmon & sweet potato? The blue bag is low thirties price-wise. Our guys do well on both flavors.
We are Costco members, and we've been intrigued by the Nature's Domain food. I've lurked on Pets and seen it mentioned there...
What I've read - again, in conflicting articles - is that grain free COULD cause kidney problems in boxers. Of course, other sources say no, it won't. You'd think that grain free would be fine because dogs aren't eating wheat/grains in the wild, but...
I think maybe we'll give the Costco food a try...
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
It looks like you have lots of advice to try!
If nothing else seems to work, I recommend making an appointment at Lake Harriet Vet clinic. They're super knowledgeable about nutrition and not the "feed them Hill/Science Diet" type of knowledge. My dog was having issues with food (vomiting, bouts of constipation mixed with diarrhea and awful room clearing gas) and they really helped. I ended up going to home cooked food because I was sick of dealing with commerical foods and guessing what was and wasn't causing problems, but they didn't push it on me. I know some people really like their vet, as do I, and Lake Harriet has been great about dealing with my primary vet when necessary.
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.
We LOVE our vet - Dr Krull at the Flying Cloud Animal Hospital - but I don't agree with their food info, which is the Hill/Science Diet stuff.
Other than food stuff, we love the vet and trust his judgement, but it might be nice to talk to a vet who has a more holistic approach to pet nutrition. Do they frown upon people coming to them for specialized information like this?
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
No, it doesn't seem to be an issue at all. I was really worried about it because I do love my primary vet, too. I took my first pet there 25 years ago and I trust them completely. My only complaint is that none of the vets have a holistic approach.
I told Lake Harriet up front that I only wanted help with the food issues and I would still take my dog to my regular vet's office for everything else. My impression was that they get this a lot or at least they don't mind it. They did do a full exam and made some recommendations for supplements for her arthritis but other than that, it was all about nutrition. I ended up taking her back when her arthritis flared up because I wanted a holistic take on it instead of just giving daily meds and they were fine with that, too.
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.