Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
back from counseling
Well, I just got back into the office from our appointment and I have to say, I'm noticing a disturbing trend.
I just went back to a couple of weeks ago and read the post I made after our appointment then and it verified it. I feel stronger immediately after our appointments, and for a while after, but in the 2 weeks between something happens and I revert back to the insecure person I have been for so long. I'm not sure how to combat that, but I guess recognizing it is a step in the right direction, right?
Today's session was pretty ok. I'm really kind of meh about it. We spent the entire hour, each of us in our own turn, talking about the kind of spouse that we want to be whether we are married to each other or not. I brought up the issue we had this morning and his response was to tell us that he could sit down with us and go through issues one at a time for a lifetime and it wouldn't solve anything. What he wants to do with us is teach us how to have a successful marriage rather than an unsuccessful one. While the issue was brought up, I don't really feel like it was addressed, and I don't really feel like I have been given any tools to help me deal with the situation in the future, because I'm sure this isn't the last time it will come up.
So, while I understand the message behind what he's saying, I feel like I'm not able to address the specific issues that we're having and getting positive feedback on how to address them later. I talked to a friend about it on the phone briefly after H dropped me back at work and she said that she is familiar with our counselor, and she knows that he has a different way of doing things, but she's confident that we'll get the help we need as a couple if we stick with it. I just don't feel like I have a clear picture of where he's trying to get us to go.
As we were leaving, he said that H and I should "tread water" and not try to solve problems with each other yet because we don't yet have the skills to do it and it won't go well. H looked at him kind of confused and said "We should give each other a pass?" and he said yes. That thought is ridiculous to me! Does H think that now he has "a pass" to do whatever the heck he wants without criticism from me??? That is a lot of dangerous power, if you ask me! Of course I'm projecting and guessing at how H is feeling about it, but still... I don't think that I am in a place mentally where I am ready to just give him "a pass". And I don't think he has done enough to earn it. Am I completely off base here?
Re: back from counseling
Okay, not every session is going to be a win. I'd still do the work your counselor asked, even if it seems trivial and annoying. I'd also keep good track of whatever manipulation spin your DH puts on it. LET HIM run with whatever spin he puts on the counsellor's approach. At the next session, it becomes the follow-up talk you discuss in your session.
What exactly is going on with Dh's anager management appt.?
to be honest, I'm kind of with you on this one. I'm not comfortable about it either.
The way I see it, this can go one of two ways:
1. He takes the "lets give each other a pass" idea and applies it and tries not to freak out over little things.
or, what I think is more likely
2. He continues on the way he has been and when I get mad, he says "Dr X said you should give me a pass".
While the first option would be nice and possibly open the door for him to realize just how stupid these arguments have been, I really have a hard time believing that's what is going to happen.
I know he has 30+ years of experience and has published books on the making marriages work, blah, blah, blah. I am really having trouble throwing myself whole heartedly into this process when I fear it could have the most devestating consequences for me!
According to H, his friend recommended a counselor and then "went on his annual vacation to Mexico" without giving him the counselor's contact info. So the story is that he's had to wait until his friend gets back to get the info so he can make the appt. But his friend just came back and he is going to see him tomorrow at work and get the information then.
Personally, I don't know that I believe this story. I think he's making up excuses in hopes that he can drag it out until I decide to let the anger management thing go so he won't have to do it. But I'm going to text him tomorrow mid day to remind him to get the info.
Tell me exactly what consequences you are referring to. Seriously.
I fear that with me giving him a pass, he's going to expect me to just roll over and take it without argument when I feel like he's being a jerk. If I don't do that, it will make him mad. Having to continue to eat sh*t and pretend it doesn't matter. I'm not excited about that. However, now that we have been instructed to do this, everytime I don't brush off his ridiculous behavior, he will use it to start another "I'm not going to be the only one changing" discussion (and I use the word discussion lightly here). I think he may feel like he's getting a get out of jail free card to treat me however he wants without consequences. Which is EXACTLY what I have been trying to show him he can't do!
I see this leading to increased arguments, hurt feelings, feelings of inadequacy and failure, lots of yelling, and crying, and no improvement.
I suppose the possibility exists that he will surprise me and things will go smoothly. I just don't feel like its safe for me to bank on that. I don't want to let my guard down, because that's when I get hurt (not physically), but emotionally. But by the same token, I don't know how long I can maintain this wall... As I mentioned before, I feel like the wall goes up and I'm strong and secure for a few days, but as time goes on between appointments, it begins to crumble and I turn into a weakling again.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I don't have an answer. I would love to draw a line in the sand and say, "the next time he I'm done." But this is something I'm having trouble quantifying.
He has moments where he seems to be the most amazing, caring person. Last week was a great example, he recognized that I was upset and took time to talk with me and find out why I was upset and offer possible solutions, and really seemed to want to make me feel better. But those moments are pretty rare. They usually come right before and right after a counseling appointment. I don't believe this is a coincidence.
One of the responders on my previous post suggested that I not remind him to get the info from his "friend" for the anger management counselor. I thought about it for a bit and I think I agree.
If he is really committed to making this change, he won't need me to remind him. He'll make it a priority and make sure it happens. If he doesn't, that is a clear indication of his true intentions. This could be my "line in the sand". Him choosing to not follow through with anger management is DEFINITELY a quantifiable, and tangible thing. And it will show where his heart truly lies.
I very much agree with this. I honestly think it would be best for you to stay somewhere else until you are much further into counseling and you've decided you really want to stay in this for the long hull. This way he doesnt have the opportunity to as you said have "a pass" to do whatever the heck he wants without criticism from me and turn this into an opportunity to further abuse you and make you think you should take it. I feel very badly this is so hard as I watched my dad try to manipulate my mom into not leaving him so I've seen how hard it can be but at some point you really need to realize sometimes its better to run and not look back. I hope you find the strength to do this.
This amazes me, and this may sound like a stupid question but does your Dr know he's been abusive? Because what I think an abuser would gather from this is abuse away cause Dr said I have a free pass. I have no experience in counseling but it doesnt sound like thats creating a safe situation to be in.
Well, then he's going to be pretty pissed when he realizes he has to follow-through. So, be prepared for that. This isn't the same guy who promised you a new change when you stepped over that doorway from the rain. And once the sessions start, you can expect that he's gonna hate it and hate the guy and stall, stall, stall.
Promising ain't doing.
I think a big part of your relationship is him acting badly and you making some desperate attempt at calling attention to it.
This is your pass, too. Permission to not call to his attention - again, that he's an assshole - again.
Keep good notes. Very good notes and then use therapy to reveal what's right and wrong. That's the whole point. Don't gloss over his "pass", make note of it!
Ditto Livinitup. But also, how do you feel after your individual sessions? I know you've only had a couple, but maybe you could try to increase the frequency a bit so that you can keep feeling bolstered in your strength and have someone in your corner (besides us) to help you process all of this and formulate a plan.
It really does sound like this counselors method is not well suited to your particular relationship and it's issues. You can't say something like "don't work on the small issues, just give each other a pass until we get the big picture" to an abuser without it going bad.
Perhaps it's time to channel that anger into forming a resolve to leave for good and making a happy, healthy life for yourself elsewhere?
I'm curious about this, too. Does the therapist know about the holes in the wall?
Your marriage will not work unless your H changes, and it's apparent that he isn't committed to change. There is more than one anger management counselor in your state, and I'll bet his friend is available by text or email.
I had a friend who recommended an eye doctor for my dd. I forgot the name, but drove past the place where she said the doctor's office was. Now I know which doc to go to - - it's NOT that difficult!
Why put any effort into "saving" your marriage when your H isn't?
I would also ask the counselor why you are paying him every week (or every other week) to "tread water."
Focus on your individual counseling. Maybe you should to go individual counseling in the weeks between your marriage counseling, so that you feel stronger in between. Also, get hooked up with a d.v. shelter - maybe they have inexpensive group sessions for you to attend.
Yes, the counselor knows about the holes in the walls and the past abuse. That's why I was so taken back by his approach yesterday. But I feel like I have to trust that he knows what he is doing, and see where it takes us. I will keep my notebook and pen close at hand though and document everything in between and continue stashing money away.
I'm not going to remind him to get the contact info from his friend, he's a big boy. He can do that himself if he chooses. It took me some time last night to release that responsibility to him, but in all reality the responsibility was his to begin with. If he chooses to not follow through with it, then I guess he's made his choice and I will have made mine.
I try to schedule my individual counseling appointments for the weeks when we are not doing marriage counseling. It usually works out best that way for work too.
I wonder what would happen if I took this "pass" and used it, rather than wondering how H is going to use it. If he has a "pass" to do whatever he wants, it would stand to reason that I do too... Maybe it's time for me to do a few more things for me without worrying about how he'll react. Really, that's a part of our problem (although I still contend that his abuse is the largest part). I don't feel like I have permission to do things for myself because I'm always doing things for him or for everyone else in my life. I need to give myself permission instead of waiting for someone else to do it.
Why am I trying to save my marriage? Is that what you mean? I have a lot of reasons, some good, some not so good. But I want to go through this process to see if the marriage is worth saving, I guess. That's really what it boils down to. There are times when I believe that it is, and times when I don't. I can't in good conscious leave for good with questions like that in my head. I know this person will be in my life for a long time regardless of whether or not we stay married (our son will be 2 in May), and I need to know that I have done everything I could.
As for being safe, I think I am. I have developed a strong support system in family and friends, and developed an in depth "escape plan" should I need it.
Face Painting Blog | Body Art Blog
Legal Blog
I honestly haven't read your whole back story, though I plan to, but I just wanted to let you know that any counselor that would do marriage counseling in a situation where there has been active abuse is not worth their salt. Marriage counseling is ineffective for abusers and dangerous for the abused because it reinforces that there is something that you can and should be doing to fix a problem that lies solely on the shoulders of the abuser. Nothing you do or don't do will stop his behavior.
More info here: Why Couples Counseling Doesn't Work for Abusers
It seems like you are being really proactive with your reading material, if you haven't yet, read 'Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Abusive & Controlling Men' by Lundy Bancroft. It is an EXCELLENT & affirming read!
Additionally, abuse is not an anger management problem. If it was an anger management problem, he would fly off the handle at any and every one, but I would venture to guess that he doesn't do that. It's a control issue. Abusers rage, manipulate and abuse because they like the outcome...which is you doing what they want because you on some level are afraid. That being said, anger management counseling is ineffective in a situation where there is abuse. Which is sad because even courts will mandate this type of 'therapy'.
Does your individual counselor know that you're going to marriage counseling?
I have tons of DV resources if you would like more! After being in an abusive marriage for 2 years, I studied every form of abuse literature I could get my hands on. You mentioned church earlier...if you are religious I do have some resources to share with you about abuse and domestic violence in light of what may be your religious beliefs.
Hope I'm not being too intrusive, just wanted to jump in and share with you as it seems like some of the things that you are attempting to do to help the situation are actually digging you deeper. No matter what, you deserve better.
I can be paged on the Trouble In Paradise board if you need something or just want to talk!
he came very highly recommended by a friend of mine who had been in an abusive relationship in the past and was letting it affect her current relationship. I did some research on him before I agreed to see him, and he seemed (on paper) more than qualified. I asked him for references, and called them, and they all had the best things to say so I decided to give him the green light.
Like I said, I am not sure that I am comfortable with the process, but I have to think that he has a plan. If the plan doesn't work for me, then it doesn't work. But I am challenging myself to get out of my comfort zone (within reason) and let him try to help us. Obviously what I've been doing isn't working so maybe we have to try something drasticly different.
I guess that's what I'm trying to tell you. This isn't a we problem, so there isn't a point in we fixing it. This is not to say that you are perfect in all aspects of your marriage, it's just to say that his abusiveness towards you is not something that YOU can actively participate in fixing because there is nothing YOU can do to change it.
Were his references people that counseled with him while in an abusive relationship?
The standard in the industry is not to counsel couples in an active abuse situation; he is violating ethical standards, so I can't imagine how that would make him any type of qualified.
I know it's hard to hear. People told me this and I still continued couples counseling. It certainly dug me in a lot deeper, but I managed to get out (barely) alive.
You are so smart, and it seems like you are really trying to go about this in the very best way that you know how. I am just an internet stranger imploring you to explore your options and the information available to you.
I will be keeping you and your child in my thoughts and prayers!
No problem! I devoured every shred of information I could get my hands on when I was in your shoes. If nothing else it made me feel so much stronger. And even though I stayed in the relationship for a period of time, I was able to spot the patterns and his tactics...which resulted in me not feeling as if I was going crazy.
The first is a forum that has TONS of info that can help. And even if you don't feel like posting, you can browse through and find some similar situations that might be helpful. There are women in various stages of leaving/and or staying, and there is no judgement.
Our Place
This is a book guide that has a lot of great reads:
Suggested Reading
My personal recommendations from this list would be Boundaries in Marriage, Ditch That Jerk & Why Does He Do That. There are also some good suggestions there about abusive marriage and your child.
Emotional Abuse & Your Faith is a blog that has helped me tremendously! So much good information here:
Emotional Abuse & Your Faith
If there is a particular subject that you'd like more information on feel free to let me know and I would be glad to point you in the right direction if I am able!
Have you considered taking some time apart, pursuing individual counselling and then perhaps, maybe, working on your relationship, afterward?
I'm just an internet stranger but I do feel for you and your situation, having been in something similar. For me, I made excuses for his behaviour. I didn't want to end our relationship because I thought that we had invested all this time, and we owned a house together and we had this future planned and a hundred other things. I went to counselling with him, thinking that we could work through his behaviour. It ended up getting a whole lot worse before I left. I don't want the same for you.
I think you are onto something.
Just because he worked for her doesn't mean he's right for you. She was in a completely different situation, her abuser was physically out of the picture and she was trying to deal with the scars he had left.
I would be concerned by what the plan not working actually meant - you in the hospital? worse? This is not he had an affair or we are having trouble communicating or he's a mommy's boy. This is MUCH more serious, especially since you won't learn it's not working until the next time he starts putting holes in the wall or hitting you.
I wouldn't be living with him while trying to figure out if this approach can work (unless I missed the post where you're currently living seperately)