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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Re: FYI- According to the Bible, abortion is NOT murder.
As a pro-choice Christian (who would prefer more energy went to feeding STARVING children than fighting over a women's right over her own body), if you're going to quote passages like this very literally as "God's word", then you also have to look at the passages in the OT that condemn homosexuality and passages in the NT that specify that women should be subordinate as well (FWIW, I'm also pro-homosexual marriage).
I tend to agree with the Christians who have posted who say that you have to look at the whole scope of the Bible. God is love. God is the author of life, etc. The arc of the story of the Bible is bringing God's people out of sin into life.
While I personally would never have an abortion, I don't think I am in any place to tell someone else what to do.
The Bible is a cultural document written in a time very different from our own. Thematic values trump specific passages any day.
For more on this, read Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality.
HM PR - 2:07:28 10K PR - 56:23 5K PR - 26:42
Upcoming Races:
3/11 - Tom King Half Marathon 5/6 - Flying Pig Marathon
Um, I'm pretty sure the OP is
a) Jewish
b) reading the scripture in Hebrew
and
c) probably not going to take kindly to your suggestion that she "go to church."
Just out of curiosity, are you reading a re-translated version of the Septuagint or a version based on the earliest available Scriptures in Hebrew?
HM PR - 2:07:28 10K PR - 56:23 5K PR - 26:42
Upcoming Races:
3/11 - Tom King Half Marathon 5/6 - Flying Pig Marathon
I disagree. ?It is saying that the death of a fetus shall be treated like the death of a person. ?If the hitting results in no fatality, then it's up to her husband to press charges or not. ?If the hitting results in a fatality, then a life for a life--in other words, the death penalty to the person who struck the woman who miscarried as a result of the hitting. ?I think that's pretty clearly stating that it is the killing of a person. ?You even underlined it.?
sigh. All of this hatred towards gays, abortion, etc makes me realize how proud I am to be athiest.
Using religion to discriminate is scary.
Um, try again. The "pressing charges" as you call it is for if there is a MISCARRIAGE and the woman does not die. The death of the fetus is covered under the word "miscarriage."
D/x with endometriosis Aug. 2011
Expecting "Huckleberry" 8/29/12
Uh, the fatality refers to the woman, not the fetus. That's why the language uses a different word for "miscarriage" and "fatality."
All the translations I'm looking at (KJV, NKJV, NIV) all say "give birth prematurely" rather than miscarry. I believe it is talking about a pre-term baby, not a stillborn.
*head explodes*
I have a list of things I want to say, but I can't narrow it down to one.
Nope...It says if she miscarries and there is no fatality or if she miscarries and there is a fatality...unless oyu know of some super science where a woman miscarries, but the baby is still alive and kicking..it is referring the the woman's death or non-death
It says if a pregnant woman "...miscarries, but there is no fatality." The passage is clearly differentiaing between a miscarrage, which is when a fetus dies, and a fatality, which is when a person dies.
Anything you can achieve through hard work, you could also just buy.
Children wanted to go see Jesus when He was on earth & the disciples tried to hold them back...I believe He means that children too are accepted & loved & of worth to Him here on earth as well as heaven...
If the passage is talking about the woman dying, not the baby, why the distinction of "pregnant woman?" Why not any woman, or man for that matter?
Besides, how many deaths resulted from a person being shoved when people were fighting?
Agree.
It is hardly hatred when you are just trying to prevent the killing of an innocent baby. Maybe the hatred is more in the killing.
Especially when you consider the reasoning, that the woman should have the choice to have the baby or not. Why doesn't her choice come at the time the guy's choice comes?
No one ever answers that question. The guy is told that he made his choice when he had sex with the woman. Then why is that not her time of choice also. Why does she get another chance, and he gets none????
I am no biblical scholar, but I interpret that passage very differently in that:
1. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with intentional abortion.
2. Seems to condemn the causing of miscarriages that result in a fatality. Although seems ok with miscarriages that do not result in fatality which is something I didn't think was possible.
Either way, I don't live my life by trying to intpret the bible, as IMO it is the work of (imperfect) men, not GOD. And I still believe abortion is wrong in most cases.
Yeah, that was just about Jesus not being afraid of the little kid smell...and their contant sticky-ness...Jesus was down with the smelly, sticky kids.
Mom to Lily Gayle 4.25.06 Charlotte Kathleen 3.27.09 Samuel Thomas ~8.4.12~
Well I'm guessing that kbmom is a passionate activist for intervention in Darfur, eastern Congo, Somalia, Nigeria, Western Sahara, the Comoros, the Maldives, Bolivia, Venezuela, Colombia, Belarus, Myanmar, China, Indonesia, the Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Georgia, NE India, Bihar and Orissa, Kashmir, Balochistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Sudan, Nepal, Eritrea, Chad, the Central African Republic, Burundi, Uganda, Basque Country, Kosovo and Niger.
After all. I'm certain God would want philosophical consistency when it comes to speaking up against the killing of innocents.
Exactly. And if the "pushing" results in the death of the mother, than he shall be put to death, as if it were murder. So if the miscarriage of a fetus by pushing, was the same as death to the mother by pushing, the man would have the same punishment. But he doesn't - hence, the fetus is not a person.
You mean the pushing between the men who are fighting? Yes - that would be a deliberate act...but then the miscarriage would be secondary to that, since they collided with a pregnant woman, no?
Mom to Lily Gayle 4.25.06 Charlotte Kathleen 3.27.09 Samuel Thomas ~8.4.12~
Psalm 139:13 - 16 says: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
This is an interesting post and all, but the problem is, its still allowing Christians to base a discussion on legislation on religious text.
As long as we keep allowing them to do this, we are never going to get anywhere.
Religion needs to be kept out of legislation. Period.
It is the ONLY passage in the Old Testament that explicitly describes the personhood status of a fetus.
All I said is that according to the Old Testament, which some people trot out to support the misconception that abortion = murder, doesn't say that. It discusses the personhood of a fetus and says that a fetus is not an adult human being. Killing an adult human being is murder; causing the termination of a pregnancy is not.
People can talk all day about the overall context of the bible, implications, etc. But the bottom line is that the literal translation is what it is. If you want to claim a fetus is a human being, you need to look elsewhere for backup because the OT doesn't help you.
Actually, "miscarriage" is a misnomer. Medically speaking, a miscarriage is a sponteneous abortion. "Abortion" is essentially ending a pregancy in such a way that a live baby does not result; regardless of whether the ending of the pregnancy is intentional or not.
The passage above is stating that the punishment for causing a fatality is basically your own fatality. But the punishment for causing an abortion is property damages.
Anything you can achieve through hard work, you could also just buy.
I'm not looking at a translation. I'm looking at the original Hebrew. The exact words are "Va'yeitzu yeladeiha"- the literal translation of that would be "expels the pregnancy." That = a miscarriage.
I respect your opinion, however the Bible is left up to interpertation, and I don't agree.
Evelyn (3.24.10) and Graham (EDD 6.4.13) Ribbons & Raisins
So what are you personally doing about Congo that is equivalent to your advocacy against abortion?