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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Re: FYI- According to the Bible, abortion is NOT murder.
MrsAxilla is correct.
I could not agree more.
Wow, so you can't actually read the bible yourself to learn, you need the filter of your church in order to learn something new?
This could be a really good genuine conversation. A few of you don't seem to really be letting the possibility into your head that the bible could ever say such a thing, even if it's written in black and white for you. Are you supposed to be a special scholar now to know how to read the bible? You need to know what you're talking about before you can begin to interpret it? But then how do you learn enough to know what you're talking about without reading the bible? Anna, do you see where your logic is flawed?
ETA: By the time I came back to this screen and finished what I was typing, I was way late...the convo has since improved!
This post makes me sad for you, mm, that people are so stupidly ignorant about the Jewish faith.
"Go to church! Read the New Testament! Get a new translation."
Yeesh, people. Open your eyes to something other than yourself.?
Again disagree with you -- Psalm 139:13-16!!
I do not believe in the bible, OT or NT. ?What if my religion is pro-choice? ?Why do Christians think that they can make the best decision for my uterus???
The OP, in my understanding, was specifically attacking Christians, therefore bringing the New Testament in to play.
I don't know why people can't understand that ALL translations are theologized and politicized. If you want to get past that, learn Hebrew and Koine Greek. I am (Greek at least).
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You could be reading it in Martian for all I care. Still open to interpretation...
LMAO! The Psalms are not in the OT. Try again!
Psalm 139:13-16 shows that life begins at conception!
Your post is titled, "According to the Bible, abortion is not murder." Psalm 139 is in the Bible and since life begins at conception, abortion would be murder. ?
I repeat myself: if it's all open to interpretation, then how in the hell can you legislate from it?
And how is "god's word" open for interpretation, anyways?
Anything you can achieve through hard work, you could also just buy.
I know Hebrew and have been reading from the Hebrew throughout this entire discussion.
The OP didn't attack anyone. It just stated that the OT is very clear on the personhood status of a fetus. If you want backup for your abortion = murder argument, you need to look elsewhere.
I agree- religion has no place in government or on a ballot. I only started the thread because I came upon the passage while refuting the anti-gay marriage sentiments- NOT to argue that people who cause miscarriages should have to pay property damages to the husbands of the wives that miscarry.
I will do what I believe my religion wants me to do, and I will NEVER vote to apply my beliefs to the rest of you.
It is in my Bible but that is besides the point b/c you just said - look elsewhere for backup -- Psalms 139 IS THAT backup!!
I don't normally get involved in converstations like this but I was offended by your OP b/c I don't believe the Bible is okay w/ abortion...and surprised one could come to that conclusion.
and for those that don't want Christian views brought into politics - it's our beliefs that make us who we are so therefore we would want to stand up for those beliefs...just like you are doing...
"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them."
Unfortunately for your argument, this doesn't state that a fetus is a person. It simply states that god was involved in its creation. God was involved in the creation of all things (if you believe that), it doesn't make all things persons. Ending a life is not murder, except in the case of a person. And as the verse the OP quotes states, a fetus is not a person (created by God, but not a person). Hence no murder.
I'll be the unpopular one and take a stab at this.
Your interpretation of this Hebraic law is incredibly wrong.
If the woman has a premature birth/miscarriage and the child lives ("no fatality"), then there's no death penalty. However, if the child dies (or the woman dies) God says the death penalty applies: "then you shall award a life for a life." Why would God require the death penalty if He didn't consider the unborn child to be a human being?
Read the rest of the Bible and see how many times the unborn are mentioned as human beings, not as mere objects in a woman's womb.
One main example is Jeremiah 1:5, where God says He knew Jeremiah in the womb and that Jeremiah was sanctified and named as a prophet before being born.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5
Anyone who claims the Bible says abortion is not murder is really grasping at straws. You also attempted to do so by quoting The Book of the Covenant (The Covenant Code), which was meant to teach Israel how to practically apply the principles of the commandments.
I'm not an expert, but I'm a firm believer in God and the value of a personal relationship with Him. I've read the Bible and have never found anything that condones abortion or treats a fetus as anything less than a human being. Also, most Christians believe that along with Jesus came a new covenant. Romans 6:28 says, "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."
If you want to convince "religious Christians" that abortion is not a form of murder, you are going to have to find a direct quote from Jesus.
Because sometimes the woman doesn't have that choice...like when she is raped. And there are many many accidents where pregnancy occurs even when using protection. Also, the man is not the one that has to carry the child and is not usually the one that ends up taking care of the child.
If 2 adults consented and chose to have unprotected sex which resulted in an unwanted pregnancy, and b/c they both made the choice to do so, then are you saying they shouldn't be granted the right to an abortion? If so, how would that be enforced? No one would say, yeah, we had unprotected sex...so i guess we can't have an abortion. They would just lie and say the condom broke.
The post demonstrates that you cannot use the Old Testament as backup for your argument that a fetus is a person.
But regardless, you can't argue that Tehilim 139 (your Psalm) gives personhood to a fetus- just because it states that G-d "knit me together in the womb." G-d knit together cows from the womb, but we kill those and eat them, don't we?
Bingo.
I couldn't have said it better!
I think we're missing the point here...whether it's a miscarriage or an abortion, whether it's intentional or not...it's clearly making the distinction between a miscarriage (fetus dying) and an actual fatality (the mother dying), thus the argument that the fetus is not yet a life, at least not one with the same stature as the mother.
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sorry, i couldn't help myself from referencing a little Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure. Continue....
OK, I see we're just going to disagree on the translation. ?Fine. ?The other real problem is that I don't see how you can compare the purposeful end of a pregnancy (abortion) with the accidental end of a pregnancy (two men running into a woman). ?The OT makes many other clear distinctions between the purposeful killing of a person and the accidental killing of a person.
BTW, I am not a Christian, but I am extremely offended by the OP's blatant attempt to anger Christians. ?You can't look at one part of the Bible and say, "The Bible says abortion isn't murder." ?I think it's wrong and offensive for anyone to look at one part of one half of the religious text of another's religion and then to tell them what their religion tells them to believe. ?I would never do this with anyone's beliefs, nor do I think others should.?
Thank you!
I also wanted to add that the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for unborn children is yeled (pronounced yeh'-led). Yeled is also used to mean young child and also us used many times when talking about young adults and descendents. The Hebrews did not need a separate word for unborn children because they were considered just like any other children. There was no such thing as an "almost" child.
The word yeled is used in the passage you quoted as well (Exodus 21:22-25).
I'm ok with you having beliefs. Just make sure you apply them to yourself.
What if MY religious text ordered me to kick 10 Christians in the shin a day? Wouldn't you have a problem with it?
In other words, your right to swing ends at my nose.
I've formally studied Jewish law since I was twelve. My interpretation of this "Hebraic law" is based on the actual Hebrew in the Old Testament, which I read fluently.
The miscarriage relates to the fetus, not the woman. That is why G-d used the word "Isha" (for woman) and "expelling the pregnancy." If G-d wanted to grant personhood status for a fetus, He would have used the term "Ish" or "Yeled"- child. He does it elsewhere in the Torah- referring to Isaac as a "son" and "child." G-d mentions children in numerous places in the OT- why not here?
I don't know WTF the Book of the Covenant is. All I've quoted is the OT- the Five Books of Moses.
As for Jeremiah, just because G-d said he knew Jeremiah in the womb doesn't = Jeremiah being a person. G-d created many creatures in the womb, all mammals in fact, and knew them all.
I'm not trying to convince Christians of anything. I'm just telling you what the OT says in original Hebrew, which some of you use to rely on for making intolerant arguments, and it doesn't support you on this. You're flyin' solo.