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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Thank you.
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Re: Can I get a hell yes?
AGREED!
So I'm asking.....what should one do when their child is on the receiving end of someone else's lack of discipline (discipline being the overall point of the article)? I'm asking honestly here. Is is fair for me to have to remove my child from the playground fear that they'll be punched? Is it really that unreasonable to have expected the mother to have exerted SOME type of consequence? Honestly...I'm asking.
No, but what are you supposed to do? It's not like you can write a ticket and the parent has to pay a fine... Don't let your kid be in that situation is all I can think of. Punch my kid once and no way I will let he/she be around your kid again... We have no recourse as humans in public places other than to take ourselves out of the situation - that I can think of, at least.
This may be unpopular, but I want your kid to punch mine back. A taste of his own medicine. If a kid hits my kid back, that's the end. He realizes that the isn't going to get a reaction out of them.
LOL, that would be kind of awesome (the ticket part).
And unfortunately, I could not altogether prevent my child from being around this other kid, as he was in her preschool class. I did restrict any outside-the-classroom interaction (no playdates, etc) from that point forward, which was unfortunate...because this kid really liked playing with my child prior to that. I don't think it's unfair of me to have (privately) judged this parent for their lack of discipline (at least the teacher DOES make him sit out when he's problematic under her care). I think anyone in my situation would have felt similarly.
Wow....how did you get THAT is being the point of the article?!? I didn't read anything referencing a child being on the recieving end of someone' else's lack of discipline. I saw the point as being "If you aren't an effective discipliner, you suck and don't let your kids out of the house!"
To answer the question posed.....if another child hits my son, Joe KNOWS to tell that child to "Stop hitting me!" If that child doesn't stop or he is actually hurt, then Joe knows to come tell me or that kid's parent. Anyone who has been around my child knows he does this anytime he is hit. He knows it is wrong and he very very rarely hits back. If I scolded his friends everytime they hit Joe or I picked Joe up and stormed out of a party/playground/daycare everytime he is hit, not only would be child become a sissy who doesn't know how to defend himself, he (and I) would also have no friends.
Sometimes it isn't about how other kids behave...it's how you treat your child to respond.
Agreed.
On a side note, people who think their kids are perfect (before anyone freaks out, let me point out that I am not saying anyone here or referring to anyone specific) drive me up the wall. It makes me want to point out all the crap their bratty kids do while they turn the other cheek.
I edited what I typed to clarify that DISCIPLINE, and the lack thereof, was the point of the article.
And FWIW, I HAVE indeed trained my child to report to a parent or teacher when she is hurt (and this was a serious punch, as she was REALLY crying....and she normally wouldn't cry like that if it was a casual, everyday hit). In this case, it was after school and we were all on the playground, the moms chatting together while the kids ran around us (all within about 20 feet of us, as we were in the center of a small payground) and my child DID come up to me and report that she was punched (which I'd witnessed from afar, but obviously not the degree of hardness). When asked who hit her (by another parent who thought maybe it was their child who'd done the hitting), she told us (with this child's mom standing RIGHT next to me) and that mom called her kid over and asked "Did you punch K?" and he said "yes" to which she responded (in the nicest of tones) "oh, honey, we don't punch" and he simply ran off and continued playing. Then she cheerfully said "sorry K" and continued on with her conversation.
But personally I don't think the answer to violence is to allow a child to hit back, as effective as it might be. I don't want to encourage violence.
My whole issue with this article is that people frequently get/give the side eye when kids are punished. I kinda read a little jab at the whole "don't spank you kid" movement. Not wanting to (or really having the time to) get in a discussion over spankings - I really do wonder how you should discipline in public. We just took C for his first flight this week. I can't put him in time out on a plane (he screams like he's being ripped limb from limb) and where would I even put him? And I can't spank him for wanting to stand and press the flight attendant button 15 times because people will judge that. So I repeat "sit down" a dozen times.
Honestly, it is a no-win situation.
I agree as well.
Sometimes kids are cranky and noisy no matter how much we give them "the look". I have the look, have perfected the look (I am a kindergarten teacher), the look stops my students in their tracks......my son laughs at the look. We try dilligently to keep him happy and quiet in public but sometimes it just doesn't work. We get looks even if he just makes a noise or talks, not yelling or crying.
What I got from the article is "keep your kid quiet while I'm around". That's where it rubbed me wrong, I agree that I've seen parents not dicipline their kids in situations and it bothered me but that's been the exception not the rule in my experience. With my son giving him attention while he's throwing a tantrum only makes it worse, ignoring it helps it to go away faster. An onlooker might think that I'm not doing anything but really I'm doing what is most effective for my child. This article was very black and white and I don't agree, there's so much gray.
Agreed! And my child has had PLENTYof bratty moments out in public. Trust me! We've left places because of it (the movies, playgrounds, restaurants, etc). Or we've made her do undesirable things because of it (i.e. now, at the grocery store...she wants to walk and not have to sit in the basket, but if she's naughty/runs off/etc. I'll make her ride in the basket as a consequence).
The point is, we've disciplined her accordingly when she's acted out. We haven't just simply carried on with whatever activity/outing/etc. and/or ignored the behavior altogether....which is what this article was, in my opinion, trying to convey.
As for what to do if your kid is being bullied/picked on/punched...
There was a little girl who was pulling Finley's hair constantly in gymnastics. We told F to tell the other girl to stop it. We asked her to tell her coach to intervene. We eventually switched her into a new class. Now there is no more hair pulling and F is much happier.
As for the airplane situation...I have always thought there should be a family section of the plane, similar to first class or the old school smoking sections. We always book in the back of the plane whenever I am travelling with F because I know the regular flyers (Elites) will be up front.
So Tasty, So Yummy
In another direction....
Maybe I'm the only one, but I've disciplined other peoples children. When they have been left to run wild and the parent is busy flirting or the kid is standing next to me screaming....literally..screaming at the top of his lungs in my ears and the parent is nowhere in sight, I take matters into my own hands. One mom, the one to busy flirty made the comment on how dare I say anything to her kids. I told her if she won't tell them to stop, I would. Funny, all it took was a short comment to the kids both times and they stopped. I think it was more from embarrassment that a stranger told them to stop, than anything else. I guess i should clarify, that the only discipline I've done to other unknown kids, have been to tell them to stop or go sit down and behave themselves. I have also had it out with parents such as the flirty mom (she wanted to step and side and have a piece of me after shoving my mom down if that gives you a clue into her character), and another mom after she stood laughing at her kids as they destroyed toys in a store by drop kicking them. I don't have patience for idiots. Problem children are one thing, idiot parents are another.
I agree there's a lot of gray. While I understand the difference between permissive parenting and parents who try mightily without success to discipline, the article was way too black and white to resonate with me. I think it minimizes the complexities involved in raising children.
As a mom of two VERY different children I think his statements are ignorant. I consider myself a good mom, even great one some days and I have that child that loses her mind for the dumbest things. I think he needs to pull his head out of his ass and live in the real world full of varying temperaments and parenting techniques. Yes, other peoples' children annoy me from time to time, but that's when I go home where I manage my household, where my rules apply and where I don't have to deal with society giving me looks or commenting on how I parent my children...and they don't have to deal with my commentary on their parenting. I think this article is right up there with all of the ignorant "this is the mom/dad I'm going to be some day articles" and then life hands them a giant screaming beast or better yet a drug dealing teenager and they have to eat their words.
I haven't read all the responses and I only watched the video clipped versus reading the article so I may not have caught everything, but I agree that there are parents out there that need to start disciplining their kids. And if you don't, then don't give me the evil eye when I start disciplining them in front of you while you sit there chit chatting with your friends.
If my child has been asked by me to wait in line for her turn and not cut, and out of a blue, a kid comes up and cuts in front of her and the parent doesn't do anything....yes..I am that mom that will let that child know that there is a line and he/she needs to wait. I think it takes a village to raise a child (but I know that I'm in a minority on this one since I have gotten in a handful of debates with other parents on the public playground). If my kid or any other kid gets hit by another kid (especially over 4 years old), and if the parent doesn't do anything, I will be the one to step in and let the kid know that hitting is not allow and to apologize. If I knew that kid (the one that hit), then I would actually go to another extent and do time out or something.
As for the airplane, I always pick the seats all the way in the back of the plane and try to bring as many items as possible to keep them busy. Ally was a nightmare on the plane ride and there was also another kid crying the last 25 minutes. About 10 people came up to us afterwards and told us it was apples to oranges in parenting because at least we tried. Granted..it was the longest 4 hours ever and I could have just given up and let her have her way to do whatever, but I didn't.
Ally is a VERY high spirited child. VERY VERY. All my friends and family can't believe how much energy she has and how hard headed she can be. Her gymnastic coach even says that he can tell she's a non-stop handful. She is. DH is already saying no to another kid because of Ally. So yes, I know how difficult it is to have a high spirited kid that has no fear what so ever. But I'm just as hard headed and even if it takes an hour to get her to sit in time out for just that ONE MINUTE, I will do it.
As for a boy that pees on the playground..what do you do? If I had a kid that wasn't full potty train and there was a risk of peeing anywhere, you bring a portable potty seat with you. I carried that thing for over a year in a backpack. If that kid was fully potty trained and he did it on purpose to be a brat, you pack up and go home. Playtime is over, you lost your chance...we're going home. We have done this a lot of times at restaurants. If they act up, we get the rest of the food to-go, and we go home. To me..it is black and white when it comes to consequences (keep in mind I'm not talking about kids that have any kid of disorders or disabilities).
Well, I know I'm going to get judged for this one... but I'll put it out there anyways.
I have two children with two totally different personalities. I am also trying to be a different type of parent. Either way, I get looked down upon.
My oldest son, age 12, is a very well mannered child although, I have to admit I raised him like he was in boot camp. I'm the mother with "the look" and that is really all I needed with him. There was only one time that he acted out in public when he was 2. I spanked him... security was called and I was given 20 questions before leaving the store. Even at age 3, he was the child walking silently next to me staring at the children who threw a fit. He was so scared to even ask for anything. To this day, he will admit that he is scared of me even if he is already bigger than me physically. I'm feared by my child and this doesn't make me feel good. Sure, he's the "perfect" kid (maybe a little lazy at times) but never gets into trouble, good grades, etc.... but is he happy? I've focused so much of my time being his parent... maybe even a drill instructor that I forgot to be his friend.
My youngest, almost age 2, is so happy and free. I really try hard not to spank her and I'll be honest... I'm a lot more gentle, relaxed, and forgiving with her. When we are out in public, there are times when I have to hand her the IPad to keep her quiet. I see the looks! There have been a few times when people will comment (usually in restaurants) on how well behaved she is... but she has her moments. When she starts, I'm at an absolute loss. I'm trying not to spank or yell as much. I take snacks every where we go, but I can't just let her eat every time she starts crying. So, I usually end up walking away from whatever I'm doing and I leave. I definitely don't want others to suffer because my child is throwing a fit... but if I'm trying then I would appreciate if people would cut me a little slack. Sometimes kids just don't want to cooperate.
Anyways, I'm learning the balance between "mother who doesn't do enough" and "Gestapo parent" but either way, someone is looking at me and saying I'm doing something wrong.
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While I agree with much of what you are saying. My concern is how do you determine this last part? By the way the kid acts or looks?
I don't think anyone would know my son had an issue just by looking at him. I think I'd take offense if someone tried to discipline him for me because they thought I wasn't.
We take our food to go a lot. We don't want to bother other people as much as you don't want to be bothered but it is not always possible to just pick up and walk away.
my solution to the peeing on the playground would have been to remove my child from the playground. you are in time out, or you do not get the privilege of playing if you can't handle yourself. yes, it's upsetting to the child, but WAH. too effing bad, that behavior is unacceptable and this is a perfect opportunity to teach that lesson.
you scream in time out at the table? we'll go have timeout in the car until you calm down... or until the rest of our family is done eating. then you get consequences when you get home. that's how it always worked for our kids, and the consequence was not spanking, it was usually something like not getting a book that night, or not getting a song. if the rest of the family has to suffer because you can't make good choices, then you will receive consequences. you have to figure out what works for your child, of course, but they CHERISHED the book and song time at the end of the night with Daddy. taking that away was so sad for them.
same with hitting. i would remove my child from the playground, make him apologize to the child he hit, and have him sit out. i would certainly apologize to the mom if i could find her. it's not acceptable to expect my child to discipline your child. the "i wish your child would just hit him back" comment kind of fills me with rage. NO MA'AM. more hitting isn't the answer. ANY time there is hitting, swift consequence, immediate apology. none of this "honey we don't hit" BS. we have always "used our words, not our fists" to convey anger. it's okay to be angry, but it is NOT okay to hit unless a stranger is taking you.
there are completely different guidelines when your kid is mentally handicapped, but as a responsible parent you have to figure out how to best handle your family.
i have no problem telling other people's kids to act right in public. kids don't always react to strangers as they would to their parents... i was in target the other day and this kid was "mommy i want it, i want it, MOMMY I WANT it i want ittttt i want it mommyyy" crying and trailing behind mom. for like 3 aisles. he was probably 4. clearly she was ignoring him because he wasn't getting whatever the thing was that he wanted.
he came to my aisle without her stilllll whining and i looked at him and said "Oh my goodness... You're being very loud. Little boys should listen to their mommies." in my old-ladiest voice. and you bet i gave him the look. and he shooshed and walked by his mom.
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For me, even if a kid had a disorder or not, telling them what is right and wrong has to be done regardless. And so that's why I have no issue in correcting a child. Going beyond a verbal warning (i.e. time out) would only be done to kids that I actually do know (family and friends).
Correct. ME telling him. Not someone on the street that he's never seen or met. The methods that we use to get him to understand what he's doing and imprint upon him what is right and wrong are very different that someone else would do. Regression with children with that have disabilities or impairments happens so easily. I'd be ticked if someone feeling the need to do my job for me caused this to happen in my child. I'm not speaking in theory on this one it's happened and I will never let it happen again.
Now, this takes us completely off the original topic because we don't let C misbehave without being right there when something is happening. I watch him like a hawk.
Which I would not say anything if obviously the parent is doing something about it (see bold in the original post)...it's when the parents do NOTHING even though they were right there to see it happen.
I'm pretty in line with this. But I do have to say I have one kid, not two, so I'm not sure if my methods would work out if I had two.
When Maddie misbehaves in a grocery store, I find a discrete corner and she stands in it. She gets a warning first, but I'm not afraid to make her stand in the corner for misbehaving in the store. If she repeats it, we do a quick sweep for the must-have-today items and get the hell out of dodge. At home, she has consequences removed.
We were at a party on Sunday evening. Most of the time she was perfectly behaved. But the witching hour came on and she started being a spaz. She started messing with their remote, jumping on their couches, and completely disregarding what I said AND the look. I did the severe stern 3-2-1 countdown to make her stop jumping on the couch but when she wouldn't leave the remote alone and kept trying to change the channel, I looked at the time, realized she was tired and not to be reigned in, and said my good-byes to everyone and took her home. No one seemed upset or thought I was overreacting at all.
There are routine punishments she will get so if she crosses the line in public, those privileges are removed. At the top of the list are her TV privileges and being able to have the neighbor over to play. It punishes all of us if those are taken away but it's what we have to do to send the message home.
Like Lisa, I will correct another kid on the playground. Because I have a sister with a disability, it is always gentler than I would correct my own daughter. And sometimes you can just tell that something is off with a kid so I might sweetly tell the kid, "please don't hit Maddie - that hurts, sweetie" and then when Maddie looks at me like, "Whaaa!?!? you just let him get off with a "sweetie" warning???" I tell her, "His mommy will have to correct him when they get home, ok?" That is enough social justice for her.
I'm really trying hard these days not to judge others. But I also read this guy's articles regularly and love them. And I read this in the best light not considering some of the points (valid ones) raised by nesties. When I read it, I did say, "Hell yeah!" (And also told myself, "I need to work on my look because I have to repeat myself to Maddie WAY too much!"
- Paula Deen to 104.1 KRBE's Producer Eric 9/17/2011
I saw this in the comment section and thought it was perfect:
Granderson and the rest of you are commenting about kids you're observing in a snapshot of time. It is a massive leap to then conclude that that particular child is permanently disobedient and the parents are incapable. Anyone who has had kids knows that at some moments in life, despite giving "the look" and disciplining etc, kids are going to have meltdowns. Maybe they're sick, maybe they have an ear infection or maybe they are simply exhausted or maybe they are growing and irritable. Who knows - but every child has the periodic meltdown and to act like they shouldn't ever have them in public and that every meltdown is the parent's fault is absurd.
Christmas of 2009 we flew from Long Beach to Chicago. Our flight was delayed for 6 hours. That meant 6 hours spent in a tiny airport with nothing to do and no nap for O. This was followed by a 4 hour flight that landed after 9:00 pm. O screamed the entire 30 minute descent, partially due to his ears hurting but also due to sheer exhaustion from the day. Not only did he scream but DH had to hold him down in his seat. It was mortifying.
He then screamed through the airport. No amount of talking or threatening or punishing stopped it. He could not even hear us and register our words at that point. Our bags were delayed for over an hour so I found a small section of baggage claim, parked the stroller, and let him scream. We could not go outside because it was about 20 degrees with snow and ice.
To the casual observer I was a parent who didn't care. In fact an airline worker approached me in baggage claim and asked if she could help. Then concluded he was probably tired. Damn right he was tired, as were we all, and he needed to let out some steam.
I try not to judge unless the child is in a position to injure himself or my child. It's just a snapshot of their lives and unless I spend extended periods of time with them, I do not know what goes on every day.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that if the mother had simply said what you said, he would have stopped whining? I can almost guarantee that he shooshed and started behaving because a stranger corrected him. Do you think if his mom said the same thing, he would have said, "Oh okay. I should stop whining." No. He was embarrassed that he got called out by an outsider.
My 4 year old daughter has always been a very well behaved child. However, a few months ago she got to this stage where she will cry and whine over something, and completely ignore anything I say. It can be something as simple as putting on her underwear, or something like wanting to watch television when it's not time. Here is an example of an ensuing "conversation":
"But mom, I want to watch it."
"You may watch the television for an hour tonight, but not now. You know the rules that we don't watch TV before school."
(Whining): "But I want to watch it."
"Tell you what. If you get dressed with me now, we'll have time to read a book before we leave."
(Starting to cry and whine even more): "But I want to watch! I want to! I want to watch! I want to!"
"Hannah, we need to get you dressed for school. If you keep whining, you won't be able to watch it this evening either."
"But I want to!!! I want tooooooo!!!!!"
"Okay, no television tonight."
"But I want to!!!! Waaahhhh!!!! I want to watch TV!!!! I want to watch TV!!!!!...(ad nauseum)
In other words, no amount of discipline, or even a change in the initial approach, is working on her at that moment. Discipline is not always respected, especially at that age. Yes, I follow up with no TV, but that hasn't stopped her from doing it over and over again. She isn't understanding consequences at this point. I continue to do it, with the hopes that she will one day "get it," but she's not there yet. If this wasn't in our home, but it was in public and it was over wanting ice cream, all an observer would see is that I can't get her to stop whining and crying. But let's say that I remove her from the situation, and she eventually stops whining. They don't see that. They just see that I can't control my kid.
Oh, and this. That comment is right on.
places you absolutely HAVE to be in are very different from places you have an option to flee. you can't flee an airplane, an airport (most of the time), etc. You can, on the other hand, remove the misbehaver from a lot of other scenarios. Travel is especially frustrating because you don't generally have an out, and you have a schedule you have to keep... and your kid is waaaay off routine.
Nanner, I am definitely not insinuating that the child would have listened to his mom in that situation... lol. quite the contrary. He was so past listening to her... which is why I said something. I defiinitely shocked him into reality.
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Have you had him tested for giftedness (and, I mean true giftedness, not just the stuff they do at school to see if a child is academically "gifted")? My sister's kids both had/have behavior issues due to being gifted. People sometimes don't understand that gifted behavior is a whole spectrum and group of behaviors, not having a high IQ or being an overachiever or whatever. Your son's behavior may be a sign of giftedness.
I don't see this as disciplining someone else's kid. As a human being, I have a right to tell another human being (the kid) when they are doing something that is bothering me. If I use appropriate language and tone of voice for a child, I don't see anything wrong with saying something to a kid who is screaming in your ear or otherwise doing something to you or your kid or merchandise in a store that they should not be doing.
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