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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: A topic to get things moving: Flat Tax
I completely agree with the bolded.
Rags, I'm sorry that this hit a nerve, but I think you are taking it a little too personally. All I said was that people in the higher income brackets have more leeway to pay additional income tax before it starts imparing their ability to afford the basics. I don't see how that implies anything about you or your lifestyle that should be upsetting.
And I'll say it again...despite the truth of that fact I'm not sure that makes it reasonable for the gov't to go ahead and take that additional money. In fact, I'm not sure we disagree at all, particularly since i can't make up my mind on this topic either way. Hard to disagree with somebody when i'm not even sure what I think.
But just to be completely clear - I am in no way saying that people who make more than [insert current definition of "rich" here] are scrooge mcduckin' it through their piles of money and laughing at the poor while driving their Bentley's through low-income neighborhoods.
My Goodness...another food blog. Featuring: Macarons from a old post with a photo taken by my mom for a break from my crappy food photos!
Understood - and to be clear I was thoroughly aware that I was going a wee bit off topic when I responded to your post. But you had a lot to say about my personal living situation. And you neglected to mention my heavy dependence on Tar-jay. So...yeah.
My overall point still holds, though. Regardless of what you think of the situation of the uber-rich, there is a distinct portion of society that just slides into the top bracket and many of them do it while carrying a lot of responsibilities. You're kidding yourself if you think those people don't feel the loss of 40% of their income. And you're also kidding yourself if you think that the majority of those people would work as hard as they do (in jobs that often benefit society as a whole) if it didn't benefit their families financially. Not through the purchase of fancy ***. But through the ability to save and invest and secure their families' futures. So I'm not sure how relevant it is that I or anyone else *could* survive on x% of a given salary. It's whether or not anyone would choose to do it.
In any case, like you said, we probably don't disagree on most of this.
Anywho, this whole conversation is intruding far too much into my planned afternoon of driving my Rolls through the ghetto hanging out the skyroof spraying Hennessy on the underprivileged masses.* I've found that it really inspires them to do more with their lives, so I'd hate to totally skip it.
*P.S. - In college I went to a Digital Underground concert where "Humpty" actually did this to the crowd. It clearly left an impression.
ETA: I love that the Nest censored "sh!te".
lovelylittleworld
BFP#2 1/12/12 ~ Missed M/C 8w2d
<=== JEALOUS!
Yeah - it was sort of fabulous. Sticky, but fabulous.
lovelylittleworld
BFP#2 1/12/12 ~ Missed M/C 8w2d
sorry
but seriously - what do you mean it "all" benefits the poor? Tax revenue? Alot of our taxes go to military needs, mostly weapons and a salaries, also large government bureacracies that create jobs for millions of people, as well as social welfare safety net programs - that feed children, provide healthcare for sick people, provide college grants and loan guarantees, etc.
I'd be in favor of a flat tax if it seemed it was the only way to fix our debt because I do think it has a very negative impact on people in lower income brackets - 10% of 30,000 is a lot more than 10% of 300,000 sometimes (not numbers wise, but spending-power wise, as Wawa pointed out above.)
As it is, we have a lot of things we can do first and a lot of ways we can amend the tax code (which a lot of people here would hate, including eliminating the mortgage interest deduction.) A flat tax isn't automatically going to mean that we all pay less in taxes. It's not going to benefit a lot of people. It's going to hurt them, and it's going to hurt the shrinking middle class.
Do we need to fix our tax system? Sure. We need to close some loopholes and eliminate some deductions, although I'm not sure simply eliminating them all is a good idea. I think we also need to add more tax brackets and have a more tiered tax system. I also think that everyone needs to pay more in taxes. We absolutely cannot cut enough to eliminate our deficit, unless we knock out whole important government agencies. We have to increase our revenue.
But honestly, taxes aren't my thing. We've gotta do Social Security and Medicare before we tackle the Internal Revenue Code, b/c that's what's going to kill us over the next few decades - entitlements.
I'm here! I'm here! I've been working on a presentation I have to give tomorrow--I want it to be good so I can get a new awesome job and make enough money that I have to pay a lot of taxes.
I would support a flat tax and it's because I see myself eventually being in the same place Rags is--making enough money to live comfortably but still seeing WAY more of my hard earned I-pissed-away-years-of-my-life-in-graduate-school-for-this money going into taxes. I (and DH) will eventually make enough money that we're in a higher tax bracket yet don't have the riches to get us all those loopholes and tax shelters, i.e. screwed.
I fundamentally don't believe that if your job carries enough work or responsibility to warrant a higher salary that you should have to give more of it up to programs you may or may not agree with. If you feel like you have the means and want to give more than your share, that's what charitable giving is for, IMHO, and your dollars can support what you believe in.
However, it seems to me the people who are likely posting on this board--middle class, upper middle or heading that way, are the ones who would really benefit. I think we love to think that we're giving the working poor a leg up by social programing and EITC but that's not always true and I think we love to think that Mr. CEO of Big Company is shelling out a decent percentage of his millions to cover those programs but that's not always true. The only tax deductions/shelters I can think of off the top of my head that benefit the middle/upper middle class are mortgage interest, children, maybe some small-scale investments like Roth IRAs and charitable giving. And I'd guess a lot of the usefulness of those is going to pot these days where no one can afford a home, people are waiting to have kids and people are unemployed/underemployed.
You want to know my favorite part about taxes right now? As a "trainee" I don't pay into SS. It's not going to be around to help any of us out (yet another way I think our generation's middle class is going to get screwed) so I'm glad to not have to pay in. Suck it old people!
Our Share of the Harvest:How a couple cooks from a CSA share. Pick Up Day Week 15
I don't understand why everyone thinks all the "poors" are getting all your money.
Do you guys not use public schools, Army/Air Force/Marines, CIA/Intelligence services, Early Intervention for Special Needs kids, police, firefighters, student loan guarantees, student loan grants, etc.don't we all benefit from scientific research that the government funds/subsidiizes, who's paying to build bridges and roads, we also subsidize farmers etc. All those things are administered and run by government employees too.
Of course part of the money we pay in taxes goes to poor people and services that benefit them. Have we come to a point in our country that we don't think we have a responsiblity to help each other out?
I'm not seeing where anyone is saying - or implying - this?
lovelylittleworld
BFP#2 1/12/12 ~ Missed M/C 8w2d
Defining rich is pretty easy actually in my opinion. If you make more than 99 or 98% of Americans, I think you're rich. I don't think it's about what you do with that money.
I think it stems from the comment that the rich are exploited because it all benefits the poor.
One person said that, right? And I think it was meant as a sort of tongue and cheek, not entirely literal, comment - though I don't want to put words in IDHT's mouth. In any case, the idea that any of this boils down to not thinking we have a responsibility to help one another out is a huge (an unwarranted) leap from anything that I've seen in anyone's posts.
lovelylittleworld
BFP#2 1/12/12 ~ Missed M/C 8w2d
I don't think she meant it tongue in cheek at all. If she did it came off poorly in my opinion. It came in the midsts of two comments about how hard rich people work, and although she said she was not implying that poor people didn't work, she only clarified after Matildasun called her out on it. It actually made me probably as mad as this thread has made you.
Of course I pay more in federal taxes than I have to so I'm probably an odd duck anyway.
so with the reduction in taxes, what programs do you think should be cut?
aid to public schools, road construction, military, student loans, intelligence gathering, immigration officers, food inspectors?
lovelylittleworld
BFP#2 1/12/12 ~ Missed M/C 8w2d
Eh, not to get all nuanced about it but those would be high-income-earners. They are rich but you can get rich by saving every penny you have for 70 years or by basking in the glow of a trust-fund. Different tax rules would apply to each and we'd probably feel a different moral obligation to protect the "riches" of each.
Our Share of the Harvest:How a couple cooks from a CSA share. Pick Up Day Week 15
lovelylittleworld
BFP#2 1/12/12 ~ Missed M/C 8w2d
In my opinion it's the next point - if we change the tax system and the amount of taxes coming in decreases (which may or may not happen, I am far from a tax expert so I'm not entirely sure what the fallout would be), but if we went to flat tax system or something, and let's say we had less money, what would we cut?
Let's say we had significantly more money - where should we spend it?what programs should get more money? Both questions are interesting in my mind.
Sure, but I think if you are a high-income earner you are rich. There are other ways to accumulate wealth and money, but if we are going to talk about how hard it is to define what is rich, I think looking at income is a good place to start.
I HIGHLY doubt they would change the system and actually decrease the taxes.... I think there are a lot places that the government can cut from(foreign aid, big companies, etc). I feel that american's have had to cut their spending based on losing jobs, no raises, etc.... why is the gov't allowed to create new jobs/new agencies? Still means we need to provide money for those jobs and agencies.... I feel like it's a endless cycle.
TSA is a prime example here.... we had to create this HUGE organization for "security". Now, it's part of the gov't and will NEVER go away. It just keeps growing and growing. More money keeps getting put into it.
I'm working at a gov't agency right now. There are NO cubes here and every single desk has it's own professional copier/printer. EVERY single desk. Is this needed? In some cases (HR) yes, but def not every single office needs a printer. (I DO know that not every agency is like this.... but still).
If we had more money, one would be to pay our debt down, not create more jobs, more program, more..... there is an obligation to the country to do this.
DE IVF #1= 04/11 - BFP
LOL yea I know.... that's why I said not every agency is like this. My last client didn't even take the trash out. We had to bag our trash every day and put in a "community" trash can.
DE IVF #1= 04/11 - BFP
I never meant to imply that poor people don't work. I was commenting on what Rags said and was using attorneys as an example. They have to go through many years of training, spend God know how much on schooling and whatever else they do-why should they have to pay so much in taxes? And when the gov't is in trouble, they are the first group of people (the high income earners) who have the fingers poitted at to shell out even more money.
Everyone should have to pay taxes and with this current system, everyone doesn't. Ok, they pay taxes on food, etc but I mean coming out of their pay. Why should people get more back in taxes than what they paid throughout the year?
Just because I think everyone should pay taxes does not mean I am against poor people.
Um, I've made money from capital gains and been a freelance writer, so didn't have taxes withheld from paychecks....Trust me, I pay taxes on it as income. The first year I took over paying the money on the capital gains from my dad (it was family money in mutual funds), it was quite a shocker how much I owed in taxes at the end of the year. I also pay taxes quarterly on how much I earned from freelance writing. It's income = I pay taxes on it.
~ Kelsey Jean ~
Cooking with Crouton: A Food Blog
I'm just saying "rich" is subjective. If you ask a lower class family and an upper-middle class family what they consider "rich" they will probably give you two very different answers and at least one of them will probably not be in the top 99%.
BFP#1: 01/10, M/C 6w -- BFP#2: 06/10, M/C 5w -- BFP#3: 09/10, DS born June 1, 2011
BFP#4: 07/12, M/C 5w3d -- BFP#5: 12/12, EDD 08/18/13
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