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Re: WWRED?
I hope Miggs didn't get you.
haha! no bodily fluids. Luckily there were glass windows. I am pretty sure there was mumbling going on though.
but on the flip side, if she refused to work with a child because they were muslim or black or latino I would want her to be disciplined. Honestly I would want her to be fired because I don't want ignorant bigots working with any children, even children they don't have a problem with. And since they are not forcing her to pray or pretend to believe in any particular religion but are merely asking her to conform to a dress code which the school is legally allowed to have, I don't have much of an issue with it.
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if a legal challenge were to be upheld. Although the private school can require the dress code, I am betting the public employee system can't and therefore can't require her to wear the scarf.
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I agree with all of this.
My issue is with a public employee being forced to do something rooted in religion that he or she is uncomfortable with, or risk being punished in some way. It may just be a dress code, but it sets requirements that come from religious beliefs. This is different than going to a service, or a wedding, or on a visit to a cathedral because those are all voluntary.
If I were the teacher I would do it because it's not burdensome and not overly offensive, but I can imagine a religious school having requirements that would offend me, and that I would refuse to comply with.
I'm pretty sure that there are lots of public employees down here in the states that need someone to force them to be respectful.
I'd probably wear the headscarf. I would not wear a burqa. I would, however, need someone to show me how to wear a headscarf, because I would have no clue.
The poster formerly known as PDXPhotoGrl
You Canadians and your politeness, sheesh.
Mucho likes purple nails and purple cupcakes
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If I were a man (or fitty) I'd totally call my penis THE WIZARD - HappyTummy
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If I were a man (or fitty) I'd totally call my penis THE WIZARD - HappyTummy
I can understand being irritated by the requirement - particularly on the basis of the different requirements of men and women. But, aside from whatever undertones or inferences or whatever your coworker doesn't like about the rules, I don't think anyone would consider sleeves and a headscarf an unreasonable or outrageous request.
As well, in her situation, considering myself a public servant, and my big picture goal to be providing educational aid to special needs children, I would just do it. Especially because the result of refusing would not mean any positive change, it would just mean that the deaf child would not be receiving help, or would be delayed in receiving help. And that's sh*tty.
I also would not have a problem adhering to any religious clothing requirements/suggestions if I were attending a wedding ceremony or other event. It's just a show of respect in my opinion, and putting up a fuss displays intolerance to the beliefs of others, not loyalty to my own.
Oh yeah, I totally agree. I'm just pointing out it's not necessarily simply a matter of respect for a religion but (could be) a form of discrimination, and wondering if that changes how RE feels re: a moral imperative to comply.
The poster formerly known as PDXPhotoGrl
I like to consider myself pretty much Damn The Man, Fight the Power, girls rule and all that. I don't like being told I have to do anything and if/when it happens, I have to fight the urge not to do the opposite just on orinciple. Or that's how I was. Now, I really think about whether something is really that big a deal and if I can just make life easier for myself and those around me. Not in deference but like- ok. This kid needs my help. Is taking issue over long sleeves and a head scarf that important or can I just do it and not have a whole scene about it. What do I need to prove here and what exactly is my "statement" going to accomplish? If my answer is basically nothing then I tend to just go with whatever will cause me the least amount of annoyance/issue/fight.
In short, I don't need to get all philisophical about it and what it means in the bigger picture of their religion if it has no bearing on my life outside of helping this kid. Not wearing what they asked isn't going to change anything. Someone else is going to do the job and I'm going to be out one. And women will still be required to wear long sleeves and head scarves
Well most muslim's dress modestly and cover the head, both men and women. Women are more covered around the neck and ears by a scarf. I always enjoy a great "muslim women are oppressed" speech by people who do not understand the basis of the coverage. To me its a very holier than thou, anti feminist stance to assume you are more enlightened than millions and millions of women. I'm going to assume that not once, did she ask a muslim woman at the school why she covered and has jumped to the sassy 1st year women studies conclusion that she is ultimately more liberated than any of the women she'd dress like at the school. It sounds like not only a learning opportunity for the child, but also for herself, and she's refusing both.
perhaps that is why this irks.
I do a lot of things in my job as a public servant that make me uncomfortable and I do a lot of things that make me irritated. None of those things have ever involved paying respect to someone's religious leanings. In the end, a job needs to be done and the only thing preventing that child from learning is a piece of cloth that she doesn't seem to understand.
While I appreciate your point that this is really about helping the kid, there are, in fact, plenty of Muslim women who do not adhere to the conservative "dress code" of head scarves and covered bodies.
I would never make a fuss about it or do something deliberately disrespectful to someone else's religion, so I would wear the scarf to be able to give the kid the help he needs. However, I feel it is still possible to disagree with having to wear it without having a "sassy 1st year women studies conclusion" about the reasoning for wearing it. I think that's rather condescending.
I think I'm on PDXria's page (even though she's playing devil's advocate).
I think Ribth's comments are why I'm on the other side. If her objection isn't some idea she has that wearing the scarf is a symbol of the subjugation of women, what is it? She thinks it's a poor fashion choice? (I really want Winged to ask her what her objection is based on.) The idea that you are fighting the oppression of women in a private school in Houston, TX, USA feels a little weird to me.
This is a harder issue because it is tied up in religion at least peripherally, and as an admin, I would not discipline her, just to avoid the headache of the possible lawsuit. However, the fact that many muslims do not wear head coverings suggests that it is not central to religious beliefs or practice. The woman isn't being told to participate in any religious or worship practice, or deny any of her own religious beliefs. There are a lot of communities that would expect entrants to dress "modestly." That's not specific to muslim faith (or religious faith at all), and it seems as cultural as religious.
I have a strong philosophical objection to private schools and to single-sex schools. I doubt I'd be allowed to not aid a student in those schools. Again, I wouldn't discipline her because of the hint of religion, but I still think the woman is a dink.
So, yeah, I mean like I said, I don't know the objection. I have suspicions.
But, I have some new thought based on some responses I have seen.
As a person, I feel I have to right to not put myself in a position that makes me uncomfortable to a point. I mean, I do uncomfortable things every day. But I mean, there are some more extreme examples for me and I think I have a rigth, even as a public employee, to say, this is not ok for me. I don't think being a public employee takes away that right. I am not sure I am reading lanie wrong, but I almost get that vibe from her responses. So, if this is that big of a deal for this girl I feel bad that she is being forced to comply. I think that pdx and mod summed this feeling up better for me.
Secondly, I have seen several people respond with the point that they would wear a head scarf but not a burka. What is the reasoning behind that? And if you think she is wrong for her "line" why is your "line" ok?
What's the overall principle?
I understood you to be saying that there may be reasons for her to object that isn't because she believes that it is a symbol of women's oppression (maybe you were just objecting to Lanie's rather sarcastic "phrasing of 1st year women's studies" ). I'm wondering what those might be.
She doesn't have a problem adhering to the rule requiring sleeves. The fact that sleeves are common outside this community doesn't make that request any less part of the dress code she's being asked to conform with.
I was just suggesting that the idea that these women, working and being educated, in a private school in Houston, TX, USA are being oppressed by wearing head scarfs seems silly to me. More likely, they deal with bigotry in the larger community from people who don't understand their views. The idea that you are standing up against oppression by making their lives more difficult bothers me.
For her, I have no idea. And like you said, there is no way I would ask. And it's hard for me to develop a theory behind her objection since I would not have it.
I do know that the only other thing she mentioned was that the mother of the child does not wear a head scarf and that she apologized to the teacher for having to do so. But I assume that the mother does wear the head scarf at the school.
I just don't want to talk to her more about it. I feel like this is going to get weird.
I was objecting to Lanie's sarcastic phrasing. I think it's condescending, and I don't see why she or anyone just couldn't understand that someone might have another viewpoint that might not be rooted in "whiny" or racist reasoning. And I don't think that the opinion that the hijab is oppressive to women is a naive viewpoint, given that plenty of other devoutly Muslim women do not wear it.
I also said, several times, that I would just do my job. I agree that a small school somewhere is not the place to make a philosophical stance. But I agree with PDX and mod and winged that the alternatives for a public servant shouldn't be compliance or termination.
This is probably a totally ignorant question, but why do muslim women cover their heads? I know in judaism it is to symbolize the fact that god is above you, and it applies to both men and women.
My H and I actually got into a pretty heated discussion about this last night. My opinion is that I personally would just wear the scarf, but I think that this woman shouldn't be forced to.
My H thinks she should be forced to, but said that if it was a burqa she shouldn't be forced to. I asked him why a burqa was different from a head scarf and his only answer was "You know why it is!".
To me, the head scarf is a symbol of something. I'm not sure what the symbolism is for this particular religion, but if this woman understands the symbolism, and objects to it (which is a big assumption - I don't know if she understands, or why she objects), I don't think she should be forced to wear it.
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Good point.
Since this is a religiously affiliated school, I would assume there is prayer at least and possibly even an organized service at some point in the day. So the leaders of the school could see it as a religious site.
Good point.
Since this is a religiously affiliated school, I would assume there is prayer at least and possibly even an organized service at some point in the day. So the leaders of the school could see it as a religious site.
don't think being a public employee takes away that right. I am not sure I am reading lanie wrong, but I almost get that vibe from her responses.
Maybe I just live in lala land but I hold public employees to a higher level of service than most. I think as public employees in a hugely diverse area we are obligated to challenge our personal beliefs more regularly and to do things a little more carefully. I'm going to bet that this doesn't actually have much to do with her personal belief system.
Taking her out of it for this discussion...
I agree that we have an obligation for many things, but I also feel like being a public servant translates to public slave. Maybe things are different in Canada. But personally, I am not going to be treated as though I have no choice in anything because I chose to go into a public sector.