very controversial clicky

CatBus · February 2012

emyinpink:
ETA: I would also never judge anyone for getting an abortion for any reason.

This exactly. I don't care what your reasons are. Pro-choice does not come with caveats. If you're pro-choice, you need to support a woman's right to choose, no matter what.

This also means not judging if a woman chooses to take a pregnancy to term, in my opinion.

soralette · February 2012

KimberlyS530:
I would like to personally punch every one of the jury members (or the judge) in the face for failing you - and our legal system - like that.

Judge. XD And you're most welcome to! Thank you. I'd sell tickets and hand out popcorn. He was one of the most condescending S.O.B.s I've ever met, and I work[ed] in the tech industry, lol.

CatBus · February 2012

emyinpink:
soralette:

I'm also definitely pro-choice in all circumstances, though I do admit that I would judge someone who aborts based on the baby's sex without a valid/medical reason, though I wouldn't stop them from having the option to do it. (e.g.: Abort a girl because you don't "feel like" dealing with a girl/just want a boy/hate pink = judgey-eyebrows. Abort a girl because your/your partner's family has an genetically-linked life-quality-affecting disorder that will hit any (or even a significant percentage) girl you have = no judgey-eyebrows.)
okay you got me . I would judge for this reason, and this reason alone .

But sex isn't reliably determinable until 20 weeks anyway, which is well beyond the point that most clinics will perform an abortion. Moot point, IMO.

dreamwinds · February 2012

I'm getting a little hazy on what ministeph's opinion is (not to call you out solely, but as the minority... -- and I do appreciate your views as well to chime in with jennlin and the others).

What I am getting is that you are pro-life in your day to day life and don't believe people should use abortion willynilly without really good justiable cause, but aren't pro-life politically cause people should be able to choose? Or am I misunderstanding?

Cause if that's how you feel, that's pretty much how I feel, in that it's not government's place to decide what is a good reason or not a good reason to be able to have an abortion. But I don't know if this would border into judgment, per se, I'd be very sad and uncomfortable if someone I knew got an abortion, just cause.

jennuinne · February 2012

I'll jump in (sorry, I've been busy working and missed this conversation). I am extremely liberal on pretty much every other issue, not religious, but I would not consider myself pro-choice (not necessarily pro-life either). That doesn't mean I think it should be illegal. I think morality and the law are not the same thing. While this isn't a very good example, I wouldn't cheat and I don't think people should, but I don't think it should be illegal. I will probably always disapprove, but can understand why people might do it in certain circumstances. Also, not a fan of polygomy, but don't think anyone should be prosecuted for it (unless it involves force, underage girls, etc.).

My mother had an abortion b/c she got pregnant in HS (my dad was her b/f at the time), was afraid to tell her parents, didn't know else to do and it was easy (too easy) to get one. She has always regretted it. I know that it is not a decision I would make for myself. I waited longer than most to have sex b/c I knew that if I accidentally got pregnant, I would have the baby. So, I chose to wait until I was an age tha I could deal with that.

I think there should be some limitiations on abortion, such as a waiting period and a cut-off point were it is no longer legal except to protect the life of the mother. I don't think limiting it to cases of rape makes any sense or is practicle.

I definitely think there should be more sex education, more availability of free birth control. Abstinance only education is ridiculous!

CDMay2006 · February 2012

soralette:
It's all good. It can be a very, very difficult line to draw -- especially since our society, in many ways, teaches girls to ALWAYS say "no" (because only "bad girls"/"sluts" say "yes") and to make boys "convince" them to go along with any kind of sexual activity... and simultaneously teaches girls to be accommodating and "nice" and not to stand up for themselves and what they want, which effectively makes whispering "no" and then going along with it a much "easier" option for a lot of girls, regardless of what they actually want.
Which, of course, also makes things difficult for the boys -- most of whom don't WANT to rape or sexually assault anyone, but who don't generally have a ready way to TELL whether she's saying "no" because she feels like she has to say "no" even if she wants to say "yes" or if she's saying "no" because she really means "no".
It's a big societal problem. :-/

This makes me feel icky, but makes so much sense.

KimberlyS530 · February 2012

soralette:
KimberlyS530:
I would like to personally punch every one of the jury members (or the judge) in the face for failing you - and our legal system - like that.
Judge. XD And you're most welcome to! Thank you. I'd sell tickets and hand out popcorn. He was one of the most condescending S.O.B.s I've ever met, and I work[ed] in the tech industry, lol.

I just started boxing today with my new trainer so just give me a few months!

P.S. Where in PA are you from? DH is from about 1 1/2 hours outside of Philly, toward the PA / MD border. I go back there 4-5 times a year...

MiniSteph · February 2012

dreamwinds:
I'm getting a little hazy on what ministeph's opinion is (not to call you out solely, but as the minority... -- and I do appreciate your views as well to chime in with jennlin and the others).

What I am getting is that you are pro-life in your day to day life and don't believe people should use abortion willynilly without really good justiable cause, but aren't pro-life politically cause people should be able to choose? Or am I misunderstanding?

Cause if that's how you feel, that's pretty much how I feel, in that it's not government's place to decide what is a good reason or not a good reason to be able to have an abortion. But I don't know if this would border into judgment, per se, I'd be very sad and uncomfortable if someone I knew got an abortion, just cause.

That's ok, my brain knows what I want to say, but I can't seem to get them down and make sense at the same time.

Basically I don't think that the government should decide if women can choose or not.

emyinpink · February 2012

CDMay2006:
soralette:
It's all good. It can be a very, very difficult line to draw -- especially since our society, in many ways, teaches girls to ALWAYS say "no" (because only "bad girls"/"sluts" say "yes") and to make boys "convince" them to go along with any kind of sexual activity... and simultaneously teaches girls to be accommodating and "nice" and not to stand up for themselves and what they want, which effectively makes whispering "no" and then going along with it a much "easier" option for a lot of girls, regardless of what they actually want.
Which, of course, also makes things difficult for the boys -- most of whom don't WANT to rape or sexually assault anyone, but who don't generally have a ready way to TELL whether she's saying "no" because she feels like she has to say "no" even if she wants to say "yes" or if she's saying "no" because she really means "no".
It's a big societal problem. :-/
This makes me feel icky, but makes so much sense.

Eh, in almost all of the cases I know, even in cases of date rape, for the guys it was an element of control, not because they didn't know the girl wanted it or not.

Rape is almost always underreported, and even when it is reported, it's prosecuted even less. My rapist was merely given a "warning" by the police. He also attacked 3 of my other classmates, but I was the only one actually willing to go to the police (it was a date rape situation, I didn't know until after it happened to me what they also went through).

Not saying there aren't other cases, but this is generally what happens.

jennuinne · February 2012

emyinpink:
CDMay2006:
soralette:
It's all good. It can be a very, very difficult line to draw -- especially since our society, in many ways, teaches girls to ALWAYS say "no" (because only "bad girls"/"sluts" say "yes") and to make boys "convince" them to go along with any kind of sexual activity... and simultaneously teaches girls to be accommodating and "nice" and not to stand up for themselves and what they want, which effectively makes whispering "no" and then going along with it a much "easier" option for a lot of girls, regardless of what they actually want.
Which, of course, also makes things difficult for the boys -- most of whom don't WANT to rape or sexually assault anyone, but who don't generally have a ready way to TELL whether she's saying "no" because she feels like she has to say "no" even if she wants to say "yes" or if she's saying "no" because she really means "no".

It's a big societal problem. :-/
This makes me feel icky, but makes so much sense.

Eh, in almost all of the cases I know, even in cases of date rape, for the guys it was an element of control, not because they didn't know the girl wanted it or not.

Rape is almost always underreported, and even when it is reported, it's prosecuted even less. My rapist was merely given a "warning" by the police. He also attacked 3 of my other classmates, but I was the only one actually willing to go to the police (it was a date rape situation, I didn't know until after it happened to me what they also went through).

Not saying there aren't other cases, but this is generally what happens.

So sorry for everyone who's been through this.

I get what the previous post is saying about society, but I can't imagine a normal guy thinking no means yes and just going for it. Like I said, I waited a long time to have sex, but I was sexually active in other ways. And never did anyone get confused or think I really wanted sex and just go ahead. They may have gotten frustrated about stopping or tried to talk me into it, but never just go ahead. In my experience, men can sense your hestitation and know when to stop. Otherwise, a hand pushing them away, saying stop, etc. works just fine. If it doesn't, they have issues.

soralette · February 2012

KimberlyS530:
soralette:
KimberlyS530:
I would like to personally punch every one of the jury members (or the judge) in the face for failing you - and our legal system - like that.
Judge. XD And you're most welcome to! Thank you. I'd sell tickets and hand out popcorn. He was one of the most condescending S.O.B.s I've ever met, and I work[ed] in the tech industry, lol.
I just started boxing today with my new trainer so just give me a few months!
P.S. Where in PA are you from? DH is from about 1 1/2 hours outside of Philly, toward the PA / MD border. I go back there 4-5 times a year...

Awesome! Boxing sounds like a LOT of fun! Do you like it so far??

I lived in Media -- about 20-30min SW of Phila proper, in Delaware Cty -- and also in Philadelphia. Went to HS and a bit of college out there. There're some things I miss (omg, I would do some serious maiming for a Rita's), and some things I don't (the weather in summer and winter, gah)... but since finding a decent cheese steak place here in Seattle (Tat's! It's run by two dudes, one from West Chester and one from Cherry Hill, and they fly in the Amoroso rolls and everything. LMK if you want to know where it is. ), I can hold off missing it TOO much.

soralette · February 2012

jennuinne:
emyinpink:
CDMay2006:
soralette:
It's all good. It can be a very, very difficult line to draw -- especially since our society, in many ways, teaches girls to ALWAYS say "no" (because only "bad girls"/"sluts" say "yes") and to make boys "convince" them to go along with any kind of sexual activity... and simultaneously teaches girls to be accommodating and "nice" and not to stand up for themselves and what they want, which effectively makes whispering "no" and then going along with it a much "easier" option for a lot of girls, regardless of what they actually want.
Which, of course, also makes things difficult for the boys -- most of whom don't WANT to rape or sexually assault anyone, but who don't generally have a ready way to TELL whether she's saying "no" because she feels like she has to say "no" even if she wants to say "yes" or if she's saying "no" because she really means "no".

It's a big societal problem. :-/
This makes me feel icky, but makes so much sense.

Eh, in almost all of the cases I know, even in cases of date rape, for the guys it was an element of control, not because they didn't know the girl wanted it or not.

Rape is almost always underreported, and even when it is reported, it's prosecuted even less. My rapist was merely given a "warning" by the police. He also attacked 3 of my other classmates, but I was the only one actually willing to go to the police (it was a date rape situation, I didn't know until after it happened to me what they also went through).

Not saying there aren't other cases, but this is generally what happens.

So sorry for everyone who's been through this.

I get what the previous post is saying about society, but I can't imagine a normal guy thinking no means yes and just going for it. Like I said, I waited a long time to have sex, but I was sexually active in other ways. And never did anyone get confused or think I really wanted sex and just go ahead. They may have gotten frustrated about stopping or tried to talk me into it, but never just go ahead. In my experience, men can sense your hestitation and know when to stop. Otherwise, a hand pushing them away, saying stop, etc. works just fine. If it doesn't, they have issues.

I'm definitely not saying or meaning to imply that the lack of clarity is what "causes" most (or even a significant fraction of) rapes and sexual assaults -- just that the lack of clarity makes dealing with and figuring out sex and sexual activity more confusing and difficult than it needs to be for everybody, male or female. Full stop.

I definitely agree that both the reporting and the prosecution of rape and sexual assault are HUGE issues, and that any guy who doesn't stop when you're hesitant about sex/sexual activity has issues as well.

SoundersChick · February 2012

MiniSteph:
PurposelyVague:
I am firmly pro-choie and I think that it's a woman's individual right to decide what to do with her body and the government has no business interferring.

And while I can appreciate that we all have different views, I frankly think it's bullsh!t to have a rape only clause. There are MANY other valid reasons why a woman might choose to have an abortion. What if she finds out the pregnancy would cost her her life? Should she be forced to deliver? And should we as a society be forcing unwanted children to be born into homes that may potentially later abuse or neglect them because they weren't wanted in the first place?

I think it's fine to say that YOU would never have an abortion unless raped, but I absolutely don't think that you have the right to tell me or any other woman what is okay to do with my body and under what circumstances.
I agree with completely. I would never force someone not to get an abortion, but I wouldn't agree with the decision. Nor would I support a bill that would make it illegal. It is a woman's choice, I just wouldn't agree with it.
If a woman who voluntarily chose to have sex, could have a healthy baby but would not be able to raise her child, I don't see why she couldn't put the baby up for adoption. A lot of people who adopt pay for the woman's medical bills and what not.
I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and that is fine. And yes there a lot of circumstances where I can see why a woman would abort.
Rape (anytime a woman says no) and heath reasons I can definitely see aborting.
I have a hard time with low income...I really don't know how I feel about that...I'm torn.

Just asking a question but if the pregnancy could produce a healthy child but would cost the mother her life would you agree that abortion is okay?

I am undeniably pro-choice.

MiniSteph · February 2012

SoundersChick:
MiniSteph:
PurposelyVague:
I am firmly pro-choie and I think that it's a woman's individual right to decide what to do with her body and the government has no business interferring.

And while I can appreciate that we all have different views, I frankly think it's bullsh!t to have a rape only clause. There are MANY other valid reasons why a woman might choose to have an abortion. What if she finds out the pregnancy would cost her her life? Should she be forced to deliver? And should we as a society be forcing unwanted children to be born into homes that may potentially later abuse or neglect them because they weren't wanted in the first place?

I think it's fine to say that YOU would never have an abortion unless raped, but I absolutely don't think that you have the right to tell me or any other woman what is okay to do with my body and under what circumstances.
I agree with completely. I would never force someone not to get an abortion, but I wouldn't agree with the decision. Nor would I support a bill that would make it illegal. It is a woman's choice, I just wouldn't agree with it.
If a woman who voluntarily chose to have sex, could have a healthy baby but would not be able to raise her child, I don't see why she couldn't put the baby up for adoption. A lot of people who adopt pay for the woman's medical bills and what not.
I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and that is fine. And yes there a lot of circumstances where I can see why a woman would abort.
Rape (anytime a woman says no) and heath reasons I can definitely see aborting.
I have a hard time with low income...I really don't know how I feel about that...I'm torn.
Just asking a question but if the pregnancy could produce a healthy child but would cost the mother her life would you agree that abortion is okay?
I am undeniably pro-choice.

Sorry, when I said heath reasons I meant both baby and mom. So yes, I would agree with that scenario.

Johlise · February 2012

I'm strongly pro-life.. no matter what the situation, due to religious beliefs I don't think it is right to have an abortion. I fully realize that I'm in a minority here, but I don't think that anything that happens gives someone the right to take the life of a child. Life starts at conception, and it's not our choice to make if baby should live or not, because of choices we make in life, or because of things that happen that are out of our control. For me.. ultimately God decides.

ETA: Does this mean that I judge someone who has had an abortion? Absolutely not!! While I may not agree with their choice it isn't my place to judge them for choices they have made.

emyinpink · February 2012

Johlise:
I'm strongly pro-life.. no matter what the situation, due to religious beliefs I don't think it is right to have an abortion. I fully realize that I'm in a minority here, but I don't think that anything that happens gives someone the right to take the life of a child. Life starts at conception, and it's not our choice to make if baby should live or not, because of choices we make in life, or because of things that happen that are out of our control. For me.. ultimately God decides.
ETA: Does this mean that I judge someone who has had an abortion? Absolutely not!! While I may not agree with their choice it isn't my place to judge them for choices they have made.

I think this is one of the best perspectives I've heard from someone who's pro life. Definitely also falls in the judge not lest ye be judged. I knew I liked you!

Johlise · February 2012

emyinpink:
Johlise:
I'm strongly pro-life.. no matter what the situation, due to religious beliefs I don't think it is right to have an abortion. I fully realize that I'm in a minority here, but I don't think that anything that happens gives someone the right to take the life of a child. Life starts at conception, and it's not our choice to make if baby should live or not, because of choices we make in life, or because of things that happen that are out of our control. For me.. ultimately God decides.
ETA: Does this mean that I judge someone who has had an abortion? Absolutely not!! While I may not agree with their choice it isn't my place to judge them for choices they have made.
I think this is one of the best perspectives I've heard from someone who's pro life. Definitely also falls in the judge not lest ye be judged. I knew I liked you!

Embarrassed Thanks! it's so true.. I think people get to hung up on what they believe, forgetting that it isn't their place to judge someone else's choices.

SoundersChick · February 2012

Johlise:
emyinpink:
Johlise:
I'm strongly pro-life.. no matter what the situation, due to religious beliefs I don't think it is right to have an abortion. I fully realize that I'm in a minority here, but I don't think that anything that happens gives someone the right to take the life of a child. Life starts at conception, and it's not our choice to make if baby should live or not, because of choices we make in life, or because of things that happen that are out of our control. For me.. ultimately God decides.
ETA: Does this mean that I judge someone who has had an abortion? Absolutely not!! While I may not agree with their choice it isn't my place to judge them for choices they have made.
I think this is one of the best perspectives I've heard from someone who's pro life. Definitely also falls in the judge not lest ye be judged. I knew I liked you!
Thanks! it's so true.. I think people get to hung up on what they believe, forgetting that it isn't their place to judge someone else's choices.

I totally agree.

It is beyond frustrating when someone who has beliefs that are different than yours tries to convince you that your beliefs are wrong (I have had several friends try to do this with me).

koosh ball · February 2012

I am beyond pro-choice. My favorite charity is The CAIR Project which helps women pay for abortions.

I think the stats are like 1 in 3 women have an abortion in their life. That is reason enough to keep abortion legal *and* accessible.

therickson · February 2012

Johlise:
emyinpink:
Johlise:
I'm strongly pro-life.. no matter what the situation, due to religious beliefs I don't think it is right to have an abortion. I fully realize that I'm in a minority here, but I don't think that anything that happens gives someone the right to take the life of a child. Life starts at conception, and it's not our choice to make if baby should live or not, because of choices we make in life, or because of things that happen that are out of our control. For me.. ultimately God decides.
ETA: Does this mean that I judge someone who has had an abortion? Absolutely not!! While I may not agree with their choice it isn't my place to judge them for choices they have made.
I think this is one of the best perspectives I've heard from someone who's pro life. Definitely also falls in the judge not lest ye be judged. I knew I liked you!
Thanks! it's so true.. I think people get to hung up on what they believe, forgetting that it isn't their place to judge someone else's choices.

I am late to this so I won't add much but I just want to say I really respect how you stated your opinion and the fact that you do not judge those who beliefs are not the same as yours. I agree with Em on how well it was stated and say I also knew I liked you Smile

Johlise · February 2012

therickson:
I am late to this so I won't add much but I just want to say I really respect how you stated your opinion and the fact that you do not judge those who beliefs are not the same as yours. I agree with Em on how well it was stated and say I also knew I liked you

Honestly, to me as a Christian it is very frustrating that there is others out there who say one thing and act a different way, and yet they say that they are a Christian. They don't practice what they preach giving the rest of us a bad rap because of the minority. ~ I don't judge them for being that way either, it's just sad/frustrating for the rest of us.

therickson · February 2012

Johlise:
therickson:
I am late to this so I won't add much but I just want to say I really respect how you stated your opinion and the fact that you do not judge those who beliefs are not the same as yours. I agree with Em on how well it was stated and say I also knew I liked you
Honestly, to me as a Christian it is very frustrating that there is others out there who say one thing and act a different way, and yet they say that they are a Christian. They don't practice what they preach giving the rest of us a bad rap because of the minority. ~ I don't judge them for being that way either, it's just sad/frustrating for the rest of us.

You are a very good example to those people in my opinion.

jennlin · February 2012

therickson:
Johlise:
Honestly, to me as a Christian it is very frustrating that there is others out there who say one thing and act a different way, and yet they say that they are a Christian. They don't practice what they preach giving the rest of us a bad rap because of the minority. ~ I don't judge them for being that way either, it's just sad/frustrating for the rest of us.

You are a very good example to those people in my opinion.

definitely definitely this.

very controversial clicky

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