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@: Have you heard of the "total extinction" CIO sleep routine?
This was in response to a "help my baby won't sleep" Q on 3-6 months.
"Since you asked... this is what I would do. You need to CIO for bedtime and temporarily change up your nap routine until she's STTN, then do CIO for naps too.
So for bedtime - I am anti-Ferber. I think the whole notion of doing periodic "checks" on your baby is counterproductive, a tease, and ineffective. Our pediatrician in NYC guided us to do "total extinction" CIO where you put baby down for bed at a set time and dont go back til morning. For us, that's 7pm until 5:30-6:00am. You dont go in at all, just let her cry."
So basically you ignore your baby for 10-11 hours!!!!!! This sounds insane. And we are talking about a 4 month old here!!
What do you think?
Re: @: Have you heard of the "total extinction" CIO sleep routine?
I hope they're AT LEAST using a video monitor.
No, I take that back. There are not any circumstances in which that's OK. None at all. You don't let a 4 month old cry themselves to sleep like that, and you certainly don't leave your baby unchecked until 11 hours later.
I really hope they didn't understand their pedi. My understanding of extinction CIO is that you don't do the periodic checks, meaning when you put baby down, you let baby cry for up to a designated amt of minutes (we'll say 20). Then if baby wakes up 2 hours later, you go in, check on baby, and repeat. That's not the same as ignoring your child for 10 hours, and it's not something you do with a FOUR MONTH OLD.
Not cool. Makes me ill, to tell the truth, and I'm very much a live and let live person when it comes to parenting methods. That poor baby. =(
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We did something similar with DS, but it was when he was around a year old. He truly is the kind of kid that going back in over and over again just got him worked up anew every time, and he never settled down because he fully expected us to come back through the door at any moment. But I would never, ever do that with a 4 month old, IMO that's borderline neglect.
DS1 born June 2008 | m/c at 9w March 2011 | DS2 born April 2012
Yup. I hope TB called her out on that nonsense, but I don't hold out hope.
food blog | garden blog | curly dogs blog
People go crazy over people suggesting sleep training before 6 months. She probably got her ass chewed
DD #1 passed away in January 2011 at 14 days old due to congenital heart disease
DD#2 lost in January 2012 at 23 weeks due to anhydramnios caused by a placental abruption
right?
We did this with J. He was 18 months old though. We weaned around that time so seeing me would make him go crazy (he wanted the boobs) so checking on him made it worse. I explained it to him though and I think he understood as he gave up the ghost after two nights. My kid is really stubborn so if he hadn't understood we would have heard him crying for weeks.
we have to do that with the boys but NOT at 4 months.
i suspect someone half-listened to their ped.
I could be mistaken but I think the Weisbluth book, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child" (or something like that) is a total extinction plan. I used Ferber w/Sadie who only ever cried for about 20 minutes & that was freaking brutal. I still go in and check on her most nights even though she's an amazing sleeper.
"This ribbon has been reported." - lovesnina
I think I've read every sleep book there is at this point - we're going to attempt sleep training again this weekend. My pediatrician recommended no CIO sleep training until 9 months - all the books say no earlier than 6. I do agree that there might be a point with a much older baby where going in for checks works them up more, but even then I couldn't do it, I would spread the time of the checks out further.
That said, DS won't sleep in his crib at all and I still have to hold him sitting-up all night and have registered for a half day seminar with a sleep lady (even if sleep training works I think it will be useful because I never want to go through this again with a second child), so I'm not one you should take advice from. I'd rather than stick a hot poker up my arse than listen to my son scream and cry when I know he wants me. I'm having horrible anxiety about tonight already.
Eh, I've also seen people get all biitchy about the opposite (ETA: for example, there was a cadre on my BMB that was all "I'm sleep training my 2 month old and you're a biitch if you call me out on it."). TB is whack.
Extinction is a behavioral science term. It is used in dog training. And - and my BMB freaked the hell out when I pointed this out to them - it's actually not a training technique but description of the behavior itself. It's the gradual weakening of a conditioned response until the behavior decreases to extinction.
So, for example, with a crying baby, you gradually decrease the conditioned response (going in to comfort them) until they eventually stop pairing "crying" with "mommy comes for me".
Or, for dogs, if you want to get them to stop barking at the doorbell, you stop responding to their barks when the doorbell rings. Eventually they'll stop barking at the door and look at you like "WTH? Are you dead?" - and that's when you reward them.
There's also something called an extinction burst, where the subject will engage in the behavior repeatedly and with more energy to try and elicit a response. And if you reward the behavior during this burst, you've basically effed yourself (because then they think "Oh, ok. Now I just need to cry more LOUDLY to get them to come in here). LOL
food blog | garden blog | curly dogs blog
Very nice explanation. Are you a behaviorist? I was before shifted gears into mainstream school. Tangent: what really kills me is when people talk about "negative reinforcement" when they really mean punishment.
I think I will sing to the sweet heavens the first morning after I don't wake up at 3 and 5 am to nurse. I don't expect that to be for quite a while, though.
Heard of it? There's a girl on International Nesties who does it for her baby when he's eight hours jetlagged.
Personally I wonder why these people even bother to have children, and what they'll do when they have real issues to deal with. You can't shut your teenager in their room all day because they've got an attitude.
No, just a well-read dog trainer.
food blog | garden blog | curly dogs blog
Have you already tried putting a mattress on the floor in his room and lying down on it with him, and just refusing to sit up? Be there with him, comfort him, but the lights are out and we're going to sleep and I will not be sitting up, TYVM!
Going to sleep is when all the day's drama starts trickling out of my seven year old. She'll be all sunshine and rainbows about her day, then once we lie down in the dark she starts telling me the things that bothered her, and I can help explain the other person's point of view, or how she can deal with things next time. it's really a precious time, and very useful in dealing with the big issues at this age.
Not to start a mommy war, but I could never ever do that with my 4 month old. But that's probably because I nurse on demand and delay solids until close to a year, so I know my baby needs me not only for comfort, but also for food, throughout the night.
To be honest, I think the obsession with sleep training in our culture is completely insane. Babies are supposed to cry and get up through the night. It's part of the deal. I realize that in our culture we also have many working mothers who suffer throughout the day when they don't get enough sleep at night, but I think that denying your baby comfort in order to obtain sleep isn't the answer.
I think that we focus way too much on "normal" in our culture and assume that every baby is supposed to be STTN at some magical age. We forget that babies are unique and some need to eat through the night, some need the comfort of mommy to feel safe, and others don't need the same amount of undisturbed sleep to be healthy.
I guess I feel like babies aren't supposed to sleep well. And just when you think they are going to start STTN they start teething, go through a growth spurt, start separation anxiety or something else that throws sleep training out the window anyways.
But don't listen to me, my daughter just turned one and I'm still waking 2-3 times per night to nurse her. Luckily, I get a nap when my kids go down 5 days out of the week. I realize some women don't have that option.
The book that poster recommends is by a pedi in a practice in NYC that has a wait list; I read the book. The dr. doesn't believe in colic, and thinks crying is something babies need to do.
It seems unscientific.
That IS fuuking insane. I'll admit it, I let pudding cry. Not because I think he should be STTN right now but because sometimes the boy is just tired and there isnt' a damned thing I can do about it. He isn't happy when I rock him, he isn't hungry, his diaper is dry and I've cleared all his burps.
However, if he's still crying ten minutes later, I go in there or if his cries change. Sure, he was tired when I put him in there but things could have changed. He could have barfed up his dinner, developed a gas bubble from sucking in all that air, or made himself hungry exerting all that energy.
I think it heartless and neglectful parenting to leave a 4 month old for that long without so much as checking on them. Even a baby who STTN doesn't usually sleep from 7-5am.
Click me, click me!
Dude, don't blush--the principles of behavior are constant, no matter the species.
Yep. We did that with Josh when he was 18 months old for night wakings because he was waking and then being awake for 2-3 hours in the middle of the night. I am a believer in letting them cry for one minute for each month old they are is ok and DS would stop cring within 20 minutes at 18 months so that was within my comfort zone.
I would NEVER do it for under 1 year old.
I read this in Weissbluth's book. IIRC, he says do whatever it takes to get the baby to sleep before 4 months (meaning, no "training" until then). Easy going babies can start sleep training at 4 months and more difficult babies no earlier than 5 mos.
My personal baseline for how I treat any other human being is that the level of compassion, empathy, understanding, kindness, etc. should exceed that of the same I do for an animal, save for insects and lower orders of life.
I think the extinction method(s) are cruel and unusual. Weissbluth basically says don't check on your kid unless they're covered in vomit and then only change them quickly and leave again. It makes me kind of sick to even think about it.
If someone's life is unbalanced and you're desperate for sleep (heck, mine was!) it's worth a try but you should weigh any "expert's" advice against your own head and heart. I think most parents are instinctively wired to respond a certain way to their babies' cries for a reason and it's hard to imagine that going off-track too far from that instinct is beneficial in the long run.
I completely agree with you. I was talking to someone about this and nursing to sleep the other night (they were anti-nursing to sleep) but the way I figure it God/evolution made babies nurse to sleep for a reason, I don't get why we try to fight it. They all grow out of it eventually (well I don't see any teenagers nursing to sleep).
Yeah... I think she misunderstood her pedi because that is what I thought extinction CIO was as well.
We did Ferber/extinction combo with C at 6.5 months old... she was one where the intervals really kind of just screwed her up more so we would wait 20 min then go in, and we never had to. Two nights of a little crying and she went to STTN.