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Re: Atheist rally tomorrow in DC
Are they looking to change the oath?
As I said, it's not about a specific political issue. There is, however, inequality in politics and legislation when it comes to atheism, they want to draw attention to that and hopefully get people thinking about change, and it seems reasonable to do that in DC. This type of rally occurs in DC all the time...I don't remember the Glenn Beck rally having a specific political agenda, or the Rally to Restore Sanity, or the Million Man March? How is this different?
From the Reason Rally website:
What do you hope to achieve from this Rally?
We have three main goals:
2 politicians are delivering a video message. One is Pete Stark, the only not-really-religious, and the other is Tom Harkin, who's not really a friend of reason (he supports funding all sorts of anti-science research), but is expressing support for the right to rally. That should be a unity horse, but he's the only religious member of congress willing to say that.
Jim DeMint is attending (or did recently) a large fundie homeschooling conference, for contrast.
And it's not just about congress taking legislative action, 2v. What about what Gingrich said in debates? He's in DC, too. The president is in DC. It sends a political message to everyone just b/c of the location. This whole "america is a christian nation, and everyone else should get out" is a political thing. It's about a mindset that DC has.
Does anyone pander to get the atheist vote? The nonreligious is larger than pretty much any other minority group. 15% means there are more nonreligious than blacks. More nonreligious than all other minority religions combined. Yet if Gingrich had said that he wouldn't trust someone who didn't believe in the messiah or who had dark skin, I'm pretty sure there would be an outcry.
I understand. I think I'm also pretty jaded about marches/rallies in general. I'm not convinced they actually do anything (regardless of the movement, etc).
I don't think it will change much of anything, either, but that it's the first of its kind is still a powerful statement. I'm sure this will just cement in a lot of people's minds that there really is a war on christianity b/c atheists are speaking out in public.
However, I think it will do a lot for the people who attend. And that I think will have an eventual impact as they go back to their home communities.
(1) I think it will depend a lot on what they say, etc if it will come across as an anti-Christian event. I think there is a difference between a pro-atheist event and an anti-Christian event if that makes sense. Also, a lot will depend on whether the media covers it and how it covers it if it does.
(2) Yes, this will be an awesome experience for those who attend. Been there done that.
Hmm. Weird. I agree with 2v for #1.
I'm late to the party, but I'll add a cite to a study related to the one charminglife cited, suggesting that atheists are considered less moral than rapists. http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1
There are lots of poor surveys, and I'm not vouching for the reliability of any one survey in particular, but over the last decade, studies have continuously suggested that atheists are less trusted than whoever people like least in America -- Muslims were the comparison circa 2003.
I totally agree with 2Vermont that I hope this doesn't turn into an anti-Christian or anti-religious demonstration. Instead, I hope it focuses on a reason I would attend if I were in the area: when people feel free to call you an "evil little thing" or consider you more morally reprehensible than a rapist, it's time to band together and seek better treatment.
Of course there will be things said that some Christians won't like. To be for one thing is to be against another. Doesn't mean they're going to be against Christianity, but against things that some Christians support.
Not in Texas. Well they can run, but they can't serve in office.
I completely agree with you 2V that I hope it doesn't become anti-Christian, at least in the sense of being a Christian slam. As Dyn pointed out, it's inevitable that some things that are said may bother some Christians, particularly those who feel this is a "Christian Nation". (For example, some Christians might take it as an attack to campaign to remove "God" from the the oath, but I don't consider that to be a valid complaint, since they are still free to say it.)
Re. the effectiveness of marches and rallies...no, I don't think any individual event does anything more than motivate the participants and draw some attention to the issue. However, when you think of the women's rights, civil rights, gay rights, etc. movements, a pivotal part is public displays. I don't see how any of those movements would/could get anywhere without that element. A single display may not do much, but it does more than no display, and you can't build the momentum without starting somewhere.
Being atheist is anti christian. It just is. Atheism is an unflinching and clear rejection of Christianity, and any other religion. But so what? The religions are all anti Atheist. None of them are like "You must believe in *fill in blank* but if you dont, hey, thats totally fine" lol.
And this rally could have all the atheists singing kumbya and holding hands, and it would still be portrayed as anti jesus/america/all things good.
I mean really - can anyone imagine it being portrayed in a positive light on Fox or Rush? Under any circumstances? There could be a spontaneous earthquake and the atheists could save babies by sacrificing themselves, and O'Rielly would just say that they caused the earthquake in the first place because of evolution and gays = atheism etc. I know that didn't make sense. Thats my point. I think.
So I think the Atheists might as well own it, to be honest. It wont make any difference to the religious, but it will make a difference for the atheists.
Well sheeit. I'm having my mind changed all over this damn thread. What you said.
Well, I guess that depends on the definition of "anti christian." I think most christians would agree that not believing in god or that jc is your lord and savior is "anti christian," regardless of whether you as an atheist believe in some teachings of jesus christ. On that point, I don't think christianity is the only religion that has "love your neighbor, do unto others" types of teachings that are attibuted to jc. I live in a rural area and being an atheist is nearly unheard of so I would love any type of gathering with like minded people.
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I couldn't disagree more. The dogma of the theistic religions generally precludes salvation/happiness/etc. to non-believers, but there are plenty of religious individuals who absolutely are totally fine with people not believing. I think this board has multiple very good examples of that. It should be even easier for atheists to have that attitude, since we don't have thousands of years of pesky dogma telling us otherwise.
As I said, there are certain theistic individuals who are going to take the mere existance of atheists as a personal affront, and there's nothing to be done there. That doesn't mean the entire debate has to be framed as us vs. them.
Perhaps my term "anti" is wrong. But what you have done in your reply is jumped from "what religions say" to "what individuals within the religions say" and those are two separate things. I completely agree that many religious individuals are cool with atheism. I have yet to find any scripture or doctrine that is.
I was saying atheism is anti christian. I was not saying atheist individuals are anti christian individuals, or vice versa. Individuals are just that - individual - and therefore can believe / agree on any number of things. Religions are by definition a set of principles, usually written down in a book, and are defined by the contents of said book. And none of them are down with the non believers.
And before anyone says "except Buddhism" lets just agree that that one is more a philosophy and move along lol.
But it makes sense to talk about individuals because individuals rally not belief (or unbelief) systems. I think how this rally comes across will depend a lot on the individuals who attend it. Of course, as we have seen in other groups sometimes specific individuals can ruin it for the majority...and we know the media loves to focus on the crazies/extremists in every group.
I imagine many if not most of the participants will be from the DC area themselves. I don't think the residents of DC should have to meet a higher standard to rally in their hometown than any other simply because their hometown is perceived as more political than other places. I'm pretty sure we are disenfranchised enough as is!
That said I hope that no one double parks or otherwise parks illegally. In DC you can only get away with that for church attendance. Not discriminatory at all.
Oooh-maybe Steve Martin will be there too! I would go to see this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWA1A9XFi8
Well, by that reasoning, it makes sense to brand all catholics as anti birth control, because the individuals go to the church (attend a weekly rally), not belief systems, right? And therefore how the catholic church comes across can be judged by who goes to the catholic church.
I think it is always important to separate the individual opinion from the group doctrine, as they are often not the same thing at all. However, the individuals support the group doctrine by being part of the group, and must therefore take some of the responsibility.
This means I have to own the douchey atheists, in the same way that you have to own the parts of catholicism that you dislike. Its kinda crappy, but there it is. Unless we as individuals are willing to stand up and modify the attitude of the group, then the group will retain the elements we don't agree with. And if we remain with the group and say nothing, then we are supporting those elements simply by being there.
Thats what I think, anyway. It all gets a bit complex and I am not sure if I have worded it right.
Yeah, I'm not following you. I thought we're talking about rallies, not church.