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s/o: Race and Zimmerman
Wednesday, Apr 4, 2012 9:45 AM 11:58:17 PDT
Conservatives baffled at idea of white Hispanic people
A brief primer on race versus ethnicity
George Zimmerman
Apparently conservative have decided that the liberal media, in their endless quest to smear conservatives as racist by forcing them to defend George Zimmerman, have now made the ludicrous claim that a Hispanic person can be white. That?s ridiculous, liberal media! Only white people are white! Isn?t that right, Victor Davis Hanson?
The media then created a special rubric ?white Hispanic,? when its narrative of white-on-black crime was endangered by new information that Mr. Zimmerman had a Latino mother, although it normally does not use such terminology for others of mixed ancestry ? Barack Obama himself being a good example.
I think the argument here is that if the media wants to claim Hispanics can be white, they better also call the president a mulatto.
Bernie Goldberg and Rush Limbaugh have been making a similar claim, presenting the phrase ?white Hispanic? as intrinsically ridiculous. Jonah Goldberg referred to the term ?white Hispanic? as ?rarely if ever used before this tragedy.? (?Rarely? would have been fine by itself, Jonah. Especially because the term has a Wikipedia page and everything, that you could?ve Googled.) Jonah Goldberg also suggests that if the press is going to pretend Hispanics can be white they should call the president ?white,? too, because of his mom.
OK, guys. Here?s the thing. I know all of you don?t actually give a single *** about ethnic identity and are in fact simply trolling as part of a pathological need to deny the existence of racism, but ?Hispanic? is not a race. The U.S. Census has a handy, easy-to-remember definition: ??Hispanic or Latino? refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.? If ?white? means ?descended from Europeans? then guess what? A lot of people from Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico and South and Central America are white, even though they speak Spanish and you are racist against them.
Plenty of Hispanics don?t self-identify as white (just as plenty of Hispanics reject the vague umbrella term ?Hispanic?), but the United States quietly counts those who don?t self-identify as black or Asian or American Indian as racially ?white,? and the police initially referred to Zimmerman as ?white.? Again, this is race we?re talking about, not ethnicity or nationality. ?Half-Peruvian? is also not a race, and unless conservative bloggers and pundits really want to start examining Zimmerman?s distant family history to determine what percentage Amerindian or Asian he might be, white will have to suffice.
Of course, in America, ?white? means more than ?descended from Europeans.? It also means, commonly, ?not recognizably a member of a minority group?; that definition is likely why Hanson and Goldberg scoff. And that?s one reason the mainstream press rarely uses the phrase ?white Hispanic?: Many people, conservative and liberal, use ?white? to mean ?non-Hispanic white.? A more benign reason for the term?s rarity is that in a lot of cases it?d be sort of weird and irrelevant, like referring to a person who is ?white and Irish.? (?Of course an Irish person is white,? you say, but tell that to your great-grandparents.) One instance in which it would be relevant would be, say, a racially charged shooting.
I assume the descriptor ?white? was used in the press not to smear white people or to ?maintain a liberal narrative? or whatever, but simply to identify Zimmerman as not black. (Because there are also black Hispanics, which might also be news to Jonah Goldberg and Victor Davis Hanson?)
Finally, and it should really go without saying, but anyone with a glancing understanding of American history should understand how an American whose mother was Peruvian ends up described as ?white? while a man with a white mother and an African father doesn?t.
Re: s/o: Race and Zimmerman
This is the issue though. Yes White Hispanic is a Census category. But it's not a term that is regularly reported. If we're so intent on including his race/ethnicity at all, why not just call him hispanic, since that's how he identifies, like we call President Obama black because that's how he identifies. Why was the uncommon term White Hispanic dragged out for this coverage specifically?
And yes I see the paragraph after--of course there are black hispanics, but when you use the term Hispanic, that's not who the average American is thinking of.
Do a Google News search on "White Hispanic" and see if you can find it in use anywhere not in connection with this case...
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Is that how he identifies?
Yes, according to his voter registration forms and his father.
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interesting.
on an anectodal level, my husband and his sister are half mexican and half white. dh looks much more hispanic than his sister, black hair, olive skin and brown eyes. she has fair skin, green eyes and brown hair. i actually pointed out to him once that she identified herself as caucasian on fb while my husband always identifies as mexican/hispanic. i asked him why and he said it's probably bc of how their ethnicites have manifested in their physical traits. he looks more like the mexican side of the family and has also been the brunt of some nasty anti-mexican sentiment, which makes him more defenseive (and proud) of that side. she on the other hand is much less strongly identified as a hispanic woman. i dont know what it all means, just thought it was interesting.
(sorry for the formatting/no caps. my bb is weird)
"This ribbon has been reported." - lovesnina
We don't call President Obama black because that's how he identifies. It's because that's how society identifies him.
According to his autobiographies, yes, he identifies as "black." But this has A LOT to do with people peceiving him as black. Someone with preconceived notions about black people won't walk up to someone with Obama's skin tone and say, "pardon me, but can you tell me your exact racial make up?" before making judgements about him. Because of this, MANY biracial people identify as "black" or are more comfortable identifying with the black community (though that obviously can have it's own issues - being "too white" or "too asian" or whatever for the black community as well). Halle Berry, who is biracial and relatively light skinned, even says she chooses to identify as black. Granted, she's often subject to the dreaded descriptors of "exotic-looking" or "caramel-colored." Blah.
It is true that many people in Latin America are made up of a combination of European ancestry and native Amerindian ancestry, sometimes with some African ancestry. This has to do with how race was viewed in these areas vs. say, the United States, centuries ago. But then, you also have people who are all or vast majority European ancestry, or black, or Asian (especially in Argentina and a few other places). Or, you know, any kind of racial background due to immigration.
So, anyone, someone with the last name Zimmerman who looks, well, relatively white, is going to be identified as white, no matter if his great-great grandfather on his mother's side was Amerindian. As an aside, I guarantee that anyone in the US with a great-great grandfather who was Cherokee with the rest of their family coming from European ancestry, will be identified (probably by both themselves and society) as "white."
But hey, sounds like Fox News wants to get back to the "one drop"/racial purity system.
40/112
"Finally, and it should really go without saying, but anyone with a glancing understanding of American history should understand how an American whose mother was Peruvian ends up described as ?white? while a man with a white mother and an African father doesn?t."
So all those "whites" in Arizona shouldn't complain about being racially profiled?
My husband identifies as both white and Hispanic. I have a family member who is a black, white, mestizo Hispanic. That's what she considers herself since her father is a half-black, half-mestizo Nicaraguan and her mother is white and she is of Spanish-speaking parentage ergo Hispanic. I know, minds are blown
I will never understand why his race matters unless Zimmerman is secretly black. And even if he is, black people can still commit racially motivated crimes against black people. I know more mind-blowingness. Being a member of a protected class doesn't mean that you don't harbor biases against members of any protected class inclusive of your own.
Moreover there are plenty of Hispanic people that society objectively thinks of as white. I have no clue how Cameron Diaz identifies, but as a blond haired blue eyed lady most people consider her "white." Likewise a white looking dude named Zimmerman is going to be generally judged by society as "white" even if he identifies as a Uigher.
Really, if I put this picture in front of you and said "is this guy white or hispanic?" your answer would be white? That is not a man who looks to me like society identifies him as non-hispanic.
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I'll add that I bet ANYTHING that the reason he was referred to as white in the initial reporting on this is because he LOOKS WHITE and has what is typically a Jewish surname.
I'm sorry, but if there is a mental image that Americans have when they hear "Hispanic" it's not anything like even the most-tanned image of Zimmerman I've seen. My husband is, like Zimmerman, half Latin-American with a white surname from his father. He has a terrible time convincing people he is actually Hispanic because he doesn't look "brown enough."
Because when the reporters and other commentators were talking about the story they saw a whiteish looking guy named Zimmerman? Don't you think if his mom were white and his Dad Peruvian and he was named George Castillo or George Lopez he would have probably been identified as "Hispanic" from the start?
I have a German surname, which sometimes causes people (incorrectly) to speak to me in German. We make at least as many assumptions about identity based on name as we do when we look at someone.
I mean...if you tell me your name is Ouedrago I'm going to assume you're Burkinabe until you prove otherwise.
When I see pictures of Zimmerman I might think "ambiguously brown" but no, it doesn't scream "Hispanic" to me, probably because the only people I actually feel comfortable labeling as "Hispanic" on sight are Central Americans. That's funny of course because most of the Central Americans who live in my neighborhood are actually Mayan and don't even really speak Spanish. So...not really actually Hispanic if Hispanic = people of Spanish speaking cultures outside of Europe and Africa.
He looks very clearly hispanic to me in the photo in this thread. I find it hard to believe that a majority of Americans wouldn't check the box hispanic if they were guessing his identity based on this photo. I wish I had a sample of Americans who hadn't been exposed to the news stories to test that with.
I also find it very hard to believe that I would ever be mis-identified as hispanic because of my name.
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If someone told me their name was Elena and I knew absolutely nothing else about them and they told me to guess their ethnic background I'd probably go with Russian or otherwise Slavic
I think surnames and first names are different in this sense though. If someone (especially a man, since they don't change names with marriage generally speaking) tells you their name is Rodriguez or Stamkowski or Vladimirova or El-Khodary doesn't that give an indication of where their ancestry may lie?
Of course not. But having a name like Cameron Diaz "sounds" more hispanic than a name like Martin Sheen, you know?
This relates to the whole thing about how the name on a resume gives the interviewer an impression, and people with "black sounding names" anecdotally (possibly?) don't get called for interviews as much. Just like someone who physically appears black is classified as "black" in the minds of others, people with hispanic sounding names are identified as being *gasp* hispanic.
I have a Scottish last name. I have had people ask me about it and ask if my family is Scottish. I've also had people mistakenly think I'm Irish. For me, thankfully, it's mainly just a topic of conversation and not a tool of oppression, AFAIK. FWIW, they'd be right - my dad is half-Scottish. However, technically, I have a higher percentage of German heritage, so they'd also be wrong.
40/112
This is one problem people have with the hispanic label, right? In SoCal, Latino is much more common than Hispanic, but means something different, slightly. I'm under the impression that Hispanic is someone whose ancestry lies in a Spanish-speaking country, which means Spain or much of South America. Latino is latin-based, so it incorporates countries with Romance languages and many of their colonies, so French Guiana and Brazil are included under that rubric, but wouldn't be under "hispanic." I don't know if primary language comes into play or if it's more about colonization and dominant culture, but of course, all of Latin America doesn't have a shared culture, even the nations colonized by Spain.
40/112
The black name on resume things isn't an antecdote. There is research to back it up.
My first name is pretty generic, but my last name is allegedly Nigerian (my H is Spanish). Nigerians and Africans are often surprised with the blonde white girl shows up when they're expecting something very different.
Y4M, what about the other picture?
I don't know. He could be Italian. He could be Iranian. He could be Turkish. He could be Spanish. He could be French. He could be from any European country and happen to have dark hair and eyes, like my Scottish/German/Irish dad does. Any of those ethnicities/nationalities could be considered "white."
40/112
I'll be totally honest. When I first read about this situation, before more information was known, "George Zimmerman" + neighborhood watch + gated community in Florida = Retired, white Jewish guy
In his booking photo Zimmerman looks hispanic. In the other photo posted of him he looks like he could be hispanic or something else but white, in the sense I think of white, no.
CRAFTY ME
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i'm with Y4M, he most definitely does NOT look white (i'm referring to both pictures).
it's not even close.
i'm pretty sure most people in this country would agree with me (and Y4M
).
What does it mean to look white? What does it mean to look Hispanic? He could look like someone of Spanish/Italian/Portuguese descent which means he's white.
I wrote like a novel in the race post below about how we are struggling with the idea of race with our daughter. My husband is Mexican. I am white. Our daughter has light olive skin, blue eyes, and light hair (for now...it could change as she gets older). Does she look white? Does she look Hispanic? Why should it matter? My husband, as man with dark olive skin, dark eyes, and dark hair, doesn't know how to racially classify himself. So our daughter is half white and half ? WHY IS THIS? Our conversations about race and our ideas about race are so restrictive in this country. We can't even adequately talk about Hispanics and race without getting tongue tied.
We want so...badly...so very badly...to write up this Zimmerman/Trayvon case as something classically black and white, and I mean that both racially and figuratively. But is it?
40/112
Right, but your whole point earlier in the thread was that the media is calling Zimmerman "White Hispanic" because that's how society identifies him. I would argue that the vast majority of americans would identify Zimmerman as simply Hispanic or Latino based on the photos, and he himself identifies that way as well. So where did the "White Hispanic" terminology come from? It doesn't surprise me that conservatives are a little put off by the media's insistence at slipping White in there, even though that construction isn't in common use anywhere but the Census.
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For me personally, people don't know what to categorize me as. I don't claim black over white, or white over black. I'm biracial. Two of them.
I don't look white to most people, and for even more people I certainly don't look black. I'm lighter than most white girls in my state (thanks to fake bakers), but have dark hair, which is almost always straight. I don't have particularly black facial features, or white features if you were too look at my mom.
At the time of booking, with Sanford police I would assume they took this guys name and couldn't place Peru on a map to even assume this guy was Hispanic. I'm being cynical about this, but with the way things played out, if he was Abdul Hassan, I'm sure they'd have arrested him.
The name does matter, as gretchen stated, there were studies done on black sounding names. So, yes, names do matter.
Zuma Zoom
I know, I thought more about this after I posted. I think other people with hispanic backgrounds (or children with those backgrounds) have made the best points. When you're forced to define your race, and your background is, say Peruvian, how do you do it? I would think that you would identify with that culture the way someone who is Irish-American identifies with that culture. And that's more important than actual racial makeup. But I know many people of Latin American descent who consider themselves to be white, because they can trace all or the vast majority of their heritage to European settlers. I also know someone who had ancestors from Lebanon who immigrated to Brazil, so she considers herself Latina AND Lebanese AND white. See, complicated!
This might actually be WHY the media doesn't usually identify people by race, but rather by Hispanic/Latino. Anecdotally, I'd say around half the Latinos I know identify as white (and would probably be identifiable as such) and the rest? I have no idea. I've only heard them identify as "Mexican" or "Bolivian." So, Mexican is something you can identify as, so that's basically like identifying as African-American, or Japanese-American, right? Except not really.
And then you get people who say things like a friend of mine said, "Wait, so-and-so is Puerto Rican? But he's BLOND!"
ETA: my first reaction to this article (well, the impetus for the article) was rage, but thanks, Y4M, for engaging in this discussion, because it's made me think about it, and realize that there can be a lot of confusion that's not easily addressed in the media.
40/112
I'm impressed we got to 30 posts on race and media bias and it's all a respectful and interesting discussion!
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really? you look black to me.
i really think people need to get out more often...like, see more different types of people.