This is definitely a mommy-war book

mominatrix · April 2012

hindsight's_a_biotch:
Funny, no one makes that distinction when it comes to the GOP vs conservatives/republicans.

But seriously, that's where the AP movement began, with the literature. So let's not pretend that the books, articles, and advice columns that are the core of AP are some kind of fringe movement that has little impact on the people who are drawn to AP or are looking for help with parenting.

What, I believe what the GOP and Con's DO - like passing all kinds of crappy laws about how a cluster of cells is more valuable than me - instead of, what? their policy papers that nobody reads?

The movement, if you can call it that, may have begun with some books, but how it's practiced every day is how, IMHO, it should be judged. Just like other movements, dontcha think?

mominatrix · April 2012

lanie30:
mominatrix:
lanie30:

And I am a SAHM who has bed-shared and cloth diapered and worn her babies. I breastfed my daughter for over two years and I will probably nurse my son for another year. I had a home VBAC and buried my placenta in the yard. I am not opposed to crunchy stuff by any means. But a parenting belief that essentially tells mothers to sacrifice everything in pursuit of "attachment" strips women of their identity as whole complex beings and reduces them to one role, one defined in relation to others. So yes, I think that is anti-feminist.

Yes to all this. I'm pretty crunchy, super liberal etc... but am horrified by the literature of AP.

then say it's the literature that p!sses you off, not that "AP is anti-feminist", which you said over and over again.

there's some total bullschitte in the literature, but that doesn't mean that the practice of it is some crazy reactionary anti-woman crap, as you're making it out to be.

Sadly I think this is not a chicken/egg scenario. Women are drawn to patronizing dribble and believe it. It scares them, manipulates them and causes a reaction. That's why you have boards of women side eyeing women with bjorns.

You can't have one without the other. The literature IS the movement.

see, I was just getting to a point where I thought I could breathe,and you write something like this.

How is this valuing other women's choices? How is this valuing the work women do? How is this valuing women's position as the only ones in the species who can birth and breastfeed children?

"Women are drawn to patronizing dribble" Nice. Good to know that you aren't being demeaning.

...and this has nothing to do with the literature, and everything to do with your hostility toward women who make this choice. Own it.

hindsight's_a_biotch · April 2012

mominatrix:

What, I believe what the GOP and Con's DO - like passing all kinds of crappy laws about how a cluster of cells is more valuable than me - instead of, what? their policy papers that nobody reads?

The movement, if you can call it that, may have begun with some books, but how it's practiced every day is how, IMHO, it should be judged. Just like other movements, dontcha think?

Except that you're advocating it be judged by the people you know anecdotally not the people whose experiences differ from your own, as evidenced by your reception of the stories related in this post.

LaPiscine · April 2012

mominatrix:
lanie30:
And I am a SAHM who has bed-shared and cloth diapered and worn her babies. I breastfed my daughter for over two years and I will probably nurse my son for another year. I had a home VBAC and buried my placenta in the yard. I am not opposed to crunchy stuff by any means. But a parenting belief that essentially tells mothers to sacrifice everything in pursuit of "attachment" strips women of their identity as whole complex beings and reduces them to one role, one defined in relation to others. So yes, I think that is anti-feminist.

Yes to all this. I'm pretty crunchy, super liberal etc... but am horrified by the literature of AP.
then say it's the literature that p!sses you off, not that "AP is anti-feminist", which you said over and over again.
there's some total bullschitte in the literature, but that doesn't mean that the practice of it is some crazy reactionary anti-woman crap, as you're making it out to be.

ALLLLLL parenting "literature" is bullshit. First of all, very little of it is actually literature in any authoritative way. The only parenting literature I've been able to find that wasn't essentially the anecdotes of someone with a financial stake is basically selling their parenting method through a book, was Nurture Shock which included actual research and was less "instructive" than it was "informative."

To the extent that any parenting "literature" makes women think that the health and success of their children falls entirely on them (which, surprise it AL does), it is ALL anti-feminist.

And the problem with this entire conversation is that the literature exists in the context of a society that tells women that motherhood, which is incredibly hard work if done well, is not terribly valuable.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

mominatrix · April 2012

LaPiscine:
ALLLLLL parenting "literature" is bullshit. First of all, very little of it is actually literature in any authoritative way. The only parenting literature I've been able to find that wasn't essentially the anecdotes of someone with a financial stake is basically selling their parenting method through a book, was Nurture Shock which included actual research and was less "instructive" than it was "informative."
To the extent that any parenting "literature" makes women think that the health and success of their children falls entirely on them (which, surprise it AL does), it is ALL anti-feminist.
And the problem with this entire conversation is that the literature exists in the context of a society that tells women that motherhood, which is incredibly hard work if done well, is not terribly valuable.
And that's all I've got to say about that.

cookiemdough · April 2012

I probably have never read any parenting book cover to cover. I do find when I am looking for books though I search for those that generally will work for the philosophy I already have and provide encouragement of how to carry it out. I am not drawn to AP so I have not read any books by those authors. That being said there are a lot of children and families who benefit from bed-sharing, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, wearing your baby as opposed to strollers, etc. Because all mothers are subject to non-solicited parenting advice I can imagine that it is nice to have a book that supports those things and reinforces the benefits of them when everyone else is telling you your baby should just CIO or "just give them a bottle" if you happen to be currently struggling with nursing.

I think most moms should feel comfortable picking a choosing different things from various books without the judgment associated with it. I think if APing is not for you, that is fine. I think trying to convice people who subscribe to AP parenting that they are unhappy and marginalized when they aren't just because you would find it that way if you subscribed to certain aspects of it is weird imo. I feel the same way about APers that tell others that their child will not thrive without subscribing to every aspect of AP.

All of it is kind of silly when you think about it. All children, families and mothers are different. No one philosophy can possibly be best for every single parent out there. If that were the case we wouldn't need mothers or fathers and robots would suffice.

Giggity19 · April 2012

LaPiscine:
ALLLLLL parenting "literature" is bullshit. First of all, very little of it is actually literature in any authoritative way. The only parenting literature I've been able to find that wasn't essentially the anecdotes of someone with a financial stake is basically selling their parenting method through a book, was Nurture Shock which included actual research and was less "instructive" than it was "informative."
To the extent that any parenting "literature" makes women think that the health and success of their children falls entirely on them (which, surprise it AL does), it is ALL anti-feminist.
And the problem with this entire conversation is that the literature exists in the context of a society that tells women that motherhood, which is incredibly hard work if done well, is not terribly valuable.
And that's all I've got to say about that.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I don't understand what AP is without the philosophy/literature behind it. And if the argument is not "You have to do x, y, and z to be a good parent", then the central tenet is basically, "Be a good parent in whatever way you can." Um, duh?

And Tef, you made me laugh, only because I am frequently correcting APA in student papers for using the generic man.

CinemaGoddess · April 2012

LaPiscine:

ALLLLLL parenting "literature" is bullshit. First of all, very little of it is actually literature in any authoritative way. The only parenting literature I've been able to find that wasn't essentially the anecdotes of someone with a financial stake is basically selling their parenting method through a book, was Nurture Shock which included actual research and was less "instructive" than it was "informative."

To the extent that any parenting "literature" makes women think that the health and success of their children falls entirely on them (which, surprise it AL does), it is ALL anti-feminist.

And the problem with this entire conversation is that the literature exists in the context of a society that tells women that motherhood, which is incredibly hard work if done well, is not terribly valuable.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

This is exactly how I felt about Dr. Luke's twins book. So much fear mongering and anecdotal evidence that I couldn't even finish it.

TefLepOM · April 2012

Giggity19:
[

And Tef, you made me laugh, only because I am frequently correcting APA in student papers for using the generic man.

Ha, I know. I have no idea why my brain went there except for AP and literature in the sentence, coupled with reviewing submissions for coursework by educators and professors for certification...all making for mush brain.

LaPiscine · April 2012

Giggity19:
LaPiscine:
ALLLLLL parenting "literature" is bullshit. First of all, very little of it is actually literature in any authoritative way. The only parenting literature I've been able to find that wasn't essentially the anecdotes of someone with a financial stake is basically selling their parenting method through a book, was Nurture Shock which included actual research and was less "instructive" than it was "informative."
To the extent that any parenting "literature" makes women think that the health and success of their children falls entirely on them (which, surprise it AL does), it is ALL anti-feminist.
And the problem with this entire conversation is that the literature exists in the context of a society that tells women that motherhood, which is incredibly hard work if done well, is not terribly valuable.
And that's all I've got to say about that.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I don't understand what AP is without the philosophy/literature behind it. And if the argument is not "You have to do x, y, and z to be a good parent", then the central tenet is basically, "Be a good parent in whatever way you can." Um, duh?

And Tef, you made me laugh, only because I am frequently correcting APA in student papers for using the generic man.

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Giggity19 · April 2012

LaPiscine:

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Those were two separate thoughts. Agree. Then something else. Sorry.

This is definitely a mommy-war book

Re: This is definitely a mommy-war book

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