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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Re: I think I'm opening a can of worms. SB1070...
if it's a random band of neighborhood watch folk, then no. i think we've all seen how well that works out.
What do you mean by volunteer? Volunteer like over zealous neighborhood watch group types-NOPE. Volunteer with an extensive background/criminal check, even a pysch eval-maybe. Who would over see the volunteers-the state? What responsiblities would the volunteer group have? What legal powers would they hold, if any?
I think it is worth discussing.
Damn, people! I linked an article on the proposal. From HuffPo!!
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Exactly. And as for cartel violence crossing the border, I live in a border town. El Paso, to be specific, which is immediately adjacent to Ciudad Juarez, aka the murder capitol of the world. We've been repeatedly named one of the top 3 safest cities in the country during the years that cartel violence on the other side of the fence has been at its worst. The cartels are smart enough not to bring the violence into the U.S.--the last thing they want is the full brunt of U.S. law enforcement coming down on them. I work less than half a mile from the fence, near one of the more dangerous neighborhoods, actually. Never, ever have we seen any hint of cartel violence in or around our campus. Our safety isn't an accident, it's a deliberate decision on the part of the cartels.
As for drugs, the U.S. market is the whole reason why there's cartel violence in Mexico in the first place. Far from blaming Mexico for our drug issues, we need to look at how our current drug policies are to blame for tens of thousands of deaths across the border.
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Generally I think this is probably not a good idea. What would their duties be? Notifying the real border patrol if they spot something? This might work, but I'd think it would take them too long to get there. What kind of training would they have? Weapons or equipment? The border is a very dangerous place, especially in the places that need patrolling the most - what happens if a volunteer gets into a dangerous situation? And who would the volunteers be? Would they undergo background checks? Psychological screening?
Considering the amount of training and equipment they would need, as well as the possible liability, I'm not sure it would be cost effective to have volunteers rather than just hiring more actual agents.
Unless I missed it in the article you posted-none of the questions that are being asked were answered in the linked article.
Sorry
OK reading the article...
Arizona's state legislature is one step closer to passing bill which would create and fund a volunteer armed militia to patrol the border for undocumented immigrants.
I'm going to give that a big fat
whoops. so you did.
i would have a LOT of questions about this before i would even BEGIN to be comfortable with this, and that's only in theory.
i still think you have an issue with the zimmerman-effect. at the very least, are you giving people a psych evaluation? i am not comfortable with the government giving guns to anyone, especially endorsing them as free boarder patrol, if they haven't been evaluated with the same scrutiny that you do a police officer or federal agent.
I am the 99%.
Here is a link to the fact sheet for SB 1083- Arizona Special Missions Unit
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/2r/summary/h.sb1083_03-09-12_maps.pdf
I can only speak to the education piece.
Please go learn how school funding really works and then come back and share how that is impacted by illegal immigrants. The problems in Arizona schools have far more to do with poor legislative decisions in funding and curriculum than immigration.
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I wish I had the original post saved...
So let's say, hypothetically, that this would be set up in the same way volunteer firefighters are set up when there aren't the funds available for a fulltime force. Meaning there would be training, background checks, required qualifications (such as military service, police work, etc ) thorough screenings, supervision by a state agency, and the like. Yay or Nay?
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Conceptually, it wouldn't be so different from a volunteer fire department. But I think you'd attract very different people. A volunteer fire dept has a "we're all in this together" vibe. To me, a volunteer border patrol would appeal much more to the "us vs them" contingent.
thanks for the data sheet, STBK.
the following issues are what make me not fond of this idea at all:
Arizona Special Missions Unit
? Establishes the ASMU for the purpose of securing the safety and protection of the lives and property of the citizens of Arizona.
? States the intent of the ASMU is to provide a mission-ready volunteer force for use by this state in homeland security and community service activities as a supplement to state and local law enforcement agencies.
? Prescribes the ASMU?s mission as follows:
?? To support the securing of the Arizona-Mexico border and supplement the efforts of law enforcement and state agencies, including the pursuit, arrest, and detention of persons engaging in cross-border criminal activity.
?? To support municipal and county leaders in combating international criminal activity. No, I do not want a volunteer group handling this. At. All.
?? To respond to natural and manmade disasters. National Guard
?? For search and rescue efforts. National Guard
?? To support community activities.
?? For other missions directed by the Governor.
it also mentions at the end that it "Contains an emergency clause." ????
no, sorry. this does not fly for me.
and there's a lot more at stake with a boarder patrol militia than a FD. there are international political implications if someone goes off half cocked, as opposed to someone screwing up a fire.
By the time people feel like something's a problem...it's probably not anymore. Public consciousness always seems to be at least a few years behind the curve. People in Arizona are convinced it's worse than ever and that the federal government is doing nothing, but we've deported a record number of people the past year or two, and as many are going home as coming.
This is what I have problems with in the proposal. I do not want private citizens pursuing, arresting, or detaining anyone. Ever. Even with proper training, I would be willing to bet money that that wouldn't go well.
Not to mention I imagine people who would volunteer for this sort of thing would be more of the minutemen mentality than the volunteer firefighter mentality.
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Leaning towards nay. What kind of accountability would they have? When you are a volunteer fire fighter, you don't have shifts at the firehouse. A call goes out on the radio, and you respond if possible. If you're a volunteer border patrol agent, I assume you'd have to be assigned an actual shift per week, per month, etc. Who supervises this and makes sure you show up? What if you don't and someone needs to cover? Also, when you are a volunteer firefighter, you do have training and you put out fires and you save people's lives. In that way, I suppose it's a life-and-death issue. I am comfortable with trained volunteers pulling people out of buildings. I am not comfortable with trained volunteers shooting at human beings. With the amount of training, supervision, and checking this program would require, why not just hire more real border patrol agents?
/daughter of a volunteer firefighter
40/112
40/112
Skimming, but did anyone mention the aspect that this law is based solely on racial profiling? Because you can tell by their shoes.
Skimming again, but the Obama administration has already put together a lot of measures that are actually working to curb illegal immigration.
Also, from other posts, the general consensus is that there needs to be a tougher crack down on the businesses who hire the illegal immigrants. Take away the work source, and you take away their reason for being here. Cracking down on the immigrants is the bassackwards way of tackling the problem.
I think it's fair to be concerned about the effects of illegal immigration. But some things:
(1) Undocumented people DO PAY TAXES. They pay sales, property, and INCOME. Yes INCOME. And they don't have to have a SSN (illegally obtained or otherwise). All they need is a taxpayer ID.
(2) The AZ law is abhorrent. I think we can deal with illegal immigration w/out resorting to Nazi Germany type tactics such as demanding papers of anyone who looks "Mexican."
(3) So what are some solutions? How about redirecting some of our Middle East money to Mexico to help grow a society where its people can not only survive, but thrive? How about cracking down on businesses in the US who exploit illegal labor? How about we rethink NAFTA? How about granting legal residency to those already here if in exchange they complete certain tasks such (a) learn English (b) pay a fine (c) etc.?
Just to clarify...MY concerns are not about illegal immigrants crossing our borders for jobs. I'm not even going to pretend to have a solution to that--and I think a solution lies somewhere in protecting those who want to come over and work. My concerns are with the violence in Mexico spilling over into our border towns. While it's great that people in El Paso aren't seeing issue, anecdotally my friends from the Valley are scared. A year and a half ago, my DH and Dad had to re-route their trip from Texas to Vegas after being warned to avoid some parts of the border in Arizona. There are concerns from law enforcement (anecdotal) that gangs in Texas are tied to these cartels (so while this is a separate concern, it does speak to the arms of the cartels crossing our borders in another way).
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Thinking back to a post about tax rates...I wonder how many undocumented immigrants who pay income tax file a return (I'm guessing maybe many don't in order to keep a fake SSN from popping up on someone's computer screen any more than is absolutely necessary)? If they hold a low-paying job, they would be entitled to most, if not all, that money back, and maybe even credits beyond what they paid. If that's happening, there must be many undocumented immigrants out there paying more taxes than many US citizens.
Oh, that is fantastic. This...this is wine. Yeah. Look what all these idiots are drinking. Look at these dicks! Obviously it's not really delicious, like hot chocolate or Coke, but for wine...brilliant.
Any sort of volunteer patrol with weapons scares the crap out of me. Heck no. Those people need to be trained.
I think there are serious concerns about unsecured boarders. I DO think that is an issue. Unfortunately, most of the "illegals" conversations isn't framed around that issue since its not politically polarizing....neither side wants to actually discuss a unity horse lol.
Excellent point. ICE is at an all time high for deportations, even those committing relatively minor infractions are now at risk of deportation. 3 years ago, ICE would laugh at the thought of removing someone for a DUI.
My husband's family is spread along the border all the way from TX to AZ. They aren't scared of cartel violence--except in Juarez which they don't visit for shopping and medical care anymore, and they will occassionally avoid travel to other towns in Chihuahua on a case by case basis.
What they are afraid of is losing their rights and personal security because they are all Mexican-Americans or permanent residents. Many have left Arizona. In fact several of H's family members moved from AZ to Monterry. Yes the cartel violence in Monterrey is bad these days, but they feel more comfortable there than they did as obviously-Mexican looking and sounding people in safe suburban hamlets of AZ. AZ's loss since the ones who left are all pretty wealthy.
We spend a lot of time on the border (including the MX side, barring Juarez). I feel very safe there and it's not because I'm a naive ninny with no situational awareness. I am statistically safer there than in my Midwestern hometown and my current neighborhood.
Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.
Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.