I think I'm opening a can of worms. SB1070...

3.27.04_Helper · April 2012

is_it_over_yet?:
Sisugal:
IrishBrideND:

My state is being overrun by old people. We need a law to take care of that situation.

That is all I have to add. Carry on. I need some entertainment tonight.

Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.

Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.

Team IIOY. I like cheap chicken and lawn care.

IAmMalcolmX · April 2012

3.27.04_Helper:
is_it_over_yet?:
Sisugal:
IrishBrideND:

My state is being overrun by old people. We need a law to take care of that situation.

That is all I have to add. Carry on. I need some entertainment tonight.

Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.

Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.

Team IIOY. I like cheap chicken and lawn care.

And low cost Organic produce.

mysticporter · April 2012

is_it_over_yet?:
Sisugal:
IrishBrideND:

My state is being overrun by old people. We need a law to take care of that situation.

That is all I have to add. Carry on. I need some entertainment tonight.

Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.

Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.

I'd like to see a study some time that delves more into this. I see it thrown around a lot, and I'm not convinced it's true. If the option were not there for business to utilize illegal workers, what would actually happen? The threat seems to be that all of these jobs would go unfilled, but I wonder if that's actually true, or if businesses would be forced into paying higher wages to fill the need, and if that's actually economically viable for them or not.

tartaruga · April 2012

mysticporter:
is_it_over_yet?:
Sisugal:
IrishBrideND:

My state is being overrun by old people. We need a law to take care of that situation.

That is all I have to add. Carry on. I need some entertainment tonight.

Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.

Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.

I'd like to see a study some time that delves more into this. I see it thrown around a lot, and I'm not convinced it's true. If the option were not there for business to utilize illegal workers, what would actually happen? The threat seems to be that all of these jobs would go unfilled, but I wonder if that's actually true, or if businesses would be forced into paying higher wages to fill the need, and if that's actually economically viable for them or not.

You can already see tge effects in some places that have enacted these crackdowns: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/01/20/after-immigration-crackdo_0_n_1218957.html or http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail-pf.php?n=103962

marie427 · April 2012

It's been talked about before ad nauseum, but SB 1070 pretty much makes any brown person in Arizona feel like they need to carry proof that they are U.S. citizens or otherwise have a right to be here. Regardless of whether something more needs to be done about illegal immigration, this is merely thinly-veiled racial profiling and we should not be okay with that. I bet my life savings that if Mitt Romney's Mexican relatives decide to sneak over the border into AZ wearing sombreros and Illegal Immigrant Shoes?, no one will stop them to ask them for their papers.

pennypenny · April 2012

mysticporter:
is_it_over_yet?:
Sisugal:
IrishBrideND:

My state is being overrun by old people. We need a law to take care of that situation.

That is all I have to add. Carry on. I need some entertainment tonight.

Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.

Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.

I'd like to see a study some time that delves more into this. I see it thrown around a lot, and I'm not convinced it's true. If the option were not there for business to utilize illegal workers, what would actually happen? The threat seems to be that all of these jobs would go unfilled, but I wonder if that's actually true, or if businesses would be forced into paying higher wages to fill the need, and if that's actually economically viable for them or not.

The price of food would increase to be on par with that of other countries and Americans would be going BSC. Many already think we spend too much on food, which we really don't.

mxolisi · April 2012

marie427:
It's been talked about before ad nauseum, but SB 1070 pretty much makes any brown person in Arizona feel like they need to carry proof that they are U.S. citizens or otherwise have a right to be here. .

If you read the travel warning/info pages of the British FCO and other equivalents (ie the way foreign governments provide travel advice to their citizens like our State Dept) you will note that they explicitly warn their nationals about the risks associated with being a non US citizen in Arizona under this law.

marie427 · April 2012

mxolisi:
marie427:
It's been talked about before ad nauseum, but SB 1070 pretty much makes any brown person in Arizona feel like they need to carry proof that they are U.S. citizens or otherwise have a right to be here. .
If you read the travel warning/info pages of the British FCO and other equivalents (ie the way foreign governments provide travel advice to their citizens like our State Dept) you will note that they explicitly warn their nationals about the risks associated with being a non US citizen in Arizona under this law.

I'm not surprised, but that still makes me want to punch a wall.

NaturalBlond · April 2012

Cheap labor and food is not a good argument for illegal immigration. The same argument could be made for slavery. Mexicans are actual human beings you know. Not solely the means to your cheap American ends.

mysticporter · April 2012

NaturalBlond:
Cheap labor and food is not a good argument for illegal immigration. The same argument could be made for slavery. Mexicans are actual human beings you know. Not solely the means to your cheap American ends.

That's actually something of what I was getting at with my question. The articles linked by TTT don't address it, they primarily show that at the initial stages of a crackdown there's fewer illegal immigrants, not what the long term evolution in the work force might be. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing if the price of food increases as a result of better wage practices.

marie427 · April 2012

mysticporter:
NaturalBlond:
Cheap labor and food is not a good argument for illegal immigration. The same argument could be made for slavery. Mexicans are actual human beings you know. Not solely the means to your cheap American ends.

That's actually something of what I was getting at with my question. The articles linked by TTT don't address it, they primarily show that at the initial stages of a crackdown there's fewer illegal immigrants, not what the long term evolution in the work force might be. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing if the price of food increases as a result of better wage practices.

I'm not either. But I'd venture to say most Americans are convinced that that's a bad thing.

arborgold · April 2012

overture:
NaturalBlond:

(1) Undocumented people DO PAY TAXES. They pay sales, property, and INCOME. Yes INCOME. And they don't have to have a SSN (illegally obtained or otherwise). All they need is a taxpayer ID.
Thinking back to a post about tax rates...I wonder how many undocumented immigrants who pay income tax file a return (I'm guessing maybe many don't in order to keep a fake SSN from popping up on someone's computer screen any more than is absolutely necessary)? If they hold a low-paying job, they would be entitled to most, if not all, that money back, and maybe even credits beyond what they paid. If that's happening, there must be many undocumented immigrants out there paying more taxes than many US citizens.

I've yet to meet an undocumented immigrant who has filed a return, and I think ALL of the undocumented immigrants I know are paying taxes, including income taxes (most often through a taxpayer ID).

notquiteblushing · April 2012

alysson.lawless:

As a native Arizonan, I feel that our state needed to do something.

Oh really, which tribe?

is_it_over_yet? · April 2012

mysticporter:
NaturalBlond:
Cheap labor and food is not a good argument for illegal immigration. The same argument could be made for slavery. Mexicans are actual human beings you know. Not solely the means to your cheap American ends.

That's actually something of what I was getting at with my question. The articles linked by TTT don't address it, they primarily show that at the initial stages of a crackdown there's fewer illegal immigrants, not what the long term evolution in the work force might be. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing if the price of food increases as a result of better wage practices.

It feels odd to have to clarify, but my comment was a TIC response to Sisugal's serious response to Irish's joke. I don't support illegal immigration at all but I do support reform of the system such that people who feel driven to come here illegally have a pathway to citizenship. Regardless of our thoughts on higher food prices, many illegal immigrants are an integral part of our economy and should be treated as such.

pixy_stix · April 2012

mysticporter:
I'd like to see a study some time that delves more into this. I see it thrown around a lot, and I'm not convinced it's true. If the option were not there for business to utilize illegal workers, what would actually happen? The threat seems to be that all of these jobs would go unfilled, but I wonder if that's actually true, or if businesses would be forced into paying higher wages to fill the need, and if that's actually economically viable for them or not.

There have been several studies within the last two years. The result is crops rotting in the fields, even when workers are brought here legally on visas. The American public does not want to perform manual field labor even with higher wages.

Of course I can't find any of the articles now, but one was from Colorado and the other talked about the immediate impact in Alabama.

IAmMalcolmX · April 2012

is_it_over_yet?:
mysticporter:
NaturalBlond:
Cheap labor and food is not a good argument for illegal immigration. The same argument could be made for slavery. Mexicans are actual human beings you know. Not solely the means to your cheap American ends.

That's actually something of what I was getting at with my question. The articles linked by TTT don't address it, they primarily show that at the initial stages of a crackdown there's fewer illegal immigrants, not what the long term evolution in the work force might be. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing if the price of food increases as a result of better wage practices.
It feels odd to have to clarify, but my comment was a TIC response to Sisugal's serious response to Irish's joke. I don't support illegal immigration at all but I do support reform of the system such that people who feel driven to come here illegally have a pathway to citizenship. Regardless of our thoughts on higher food prices, many illegal immigrants are an integral part of our economy and should be treated as such.

and other economies( and families for that matter) via the monies they send home.

IAmMalcolmX · April 2012

Can I say I am loving this conversation!! The OP posed an interesting question yet in such a way it could have turned into a post full of snarky remarks and GIF's!! It was met with legitimate resonses. Yeah for us!!! We haven't done something like this in a while.

I have a couple questions here. Can someone explain ( or give me links) to how/why the cartels are getting so many guns from the US? Also someone here posted the cartels won't take their violence to our side of the border? Why?

pixy_stix · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
You can sort of see it, because the laws are only in some places right now. If there were a national campaign to return these jobs to Americans and to pay living wages for them, I think you'd see Americans (a lot of them probably college kids) doing them.

But that's not happening. This thinking has been shown to be a fallacy. (I really wish I could find those damn articles.) Remember, the crack down on immigration started a while ago. There's been a slow decline in the number of migrant workers. Farms are struggling, even with paying living wages. What's ending up happening is that farmers are having to import labor legally (which hey, that's a good thing) through visas. Even then, the government is slow with the turnaround of the visas, so farmers are having to downsize.

We're not going to see an increase in food price because of higher wages. We're going to see an increase in food price because of the scarcity of the produce.

Reeve · April 2012

notquiteblushing:
alysson.lawless:

As a native Arizonan, I feel that our state needed to do something.

Oh really, which tribe?

FTW, funniest response of the day, and its only something o'clock!

You dont need a border patrol, or to check peoples papers or any of that stuff to stop illegal immigration. All you need to do is prosecute the business that employ illegal immigrants. There are already laws in place to do this.

No jobs available = less illegal immigration, as the recession has proven.

I am not saying it would be good for the economy.

I am simply saying that if these lawmakers and politicians were really about stopping illegal immigration rather than not liking brown people, then it could be done without the need for any of these new laws - just enforce the laws there already are.

I doubt the motivation.

is_it_over_yet? · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
is_it_over_yet?:
Sisugal:
IrishBrideND:

My state is being overrun by old people. We need a law to take care of that situation.

That is all I have to add. Carry on. I need some entertainment tonight.

Last I heard, getting old is not illegal.

Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to the economy and perform necessary, backbreaking jobs that no American will, while the elderly are a drain on our resources and, on our current entitlement path, will ultimately devastate our economy. Query who actually is the greater threat.

I hate oldie but I disagree with the notion that illegal immigrants do jobs that no American will. They do jobs that no American will... for less than minimum wage. And no ONE, American or not, should be doing them for less than minimum wage. Working on a farm, doing construction, cleaning houses etc... those are jobs that Americans used to be able to command a living wage to do. The fact that illegal immigrants are willing to do them for $4.25 an hour means that Americans cannot do them for $24.00 an hour. I can't get down with that. Though I think the "greater threat" is the companies and people that facilitate this underground system. All so that we can have a t-shirt that costs $10.00 instead of $12.00 or have strawberries that are $.99 a pound instead of $2.00 a pound. Broken system for sure and we're all complicity to some extent, but to say that those are jobs no American would do is simply wrong.

Signed,

Girl from IN who had friends who shucked corn as a part time job to help pay for college.

(Also, I don't argree with the AZ bill. I think it's terrible. And I think the way you combat illegal immigration is turn off the job faucet and punish companies and individuals who hire illegal immigrants.

Given my penchant for exaggerated fogey jokes on this board, I really am gobsmacked that people thought my comment was intended to be taken at face value and somehow represented the entirety of my thoughts on this complex issue. I was responding to Sisugal, FFS. But yeah, Economics 101 FTW. I guess I need to better acquaint myself with the winky smiley.

laurenpetro · April 2012

Reeve:
notquiteblushing:
alysson.lawless:

As a native Arizonan, I feel that our state needed to do something.

Oh really, which tribe?

FTW, funniest response of the day, and its only something o'clock!

You dont need a border patrol, or to check peoples papers or any of that stuff to stop illegal immigration. All you need to do is prosecute the business that employ illegal immigrants. There are already laws in place to do this.

No jobs available = less illegal immigration, as the recession has proven.

I am not saying it would be good for the economy.

I am simply saying that if these lawmakers and politicians were really about stopping illegal immigration rather than not liking brown people, then it could be done without the need for any of these new laws - just enforce the laws there already are.

I doubt the motivation.

yes but those business owners donate to the politicans! we couldn't POSSIBLY do something like that!

IAmMalcolmX · April 2012

What do you guys think would happen to food prices if farmers paid a living wage as opposed to paying by the amount of food picked? I only assume they pay by the amount of food because of a documentary I saw on current tv once Embarrassed

I think the cost of food would sky-rocket and shake an already fragile US economy. However I am certainly open to hearing other theories.

tartaruga · April 2012

IAmMalcolmX:
Can I say I am loving this conversation!! The OP posed an interesting question yet in such a way it could have turned into a post full of snarky remarks and GIF's!! It was met with legitimate resonses. Yeah for us!!! We haven't done something like this in a while.
I have a couple questions here. Can someone explain ( or give me links) to how/why the cartels are getting so many guns from the US? Also someone here posted the cartels won't take their violence to our side of the border? Why?

Gun control is very strict in Mexico. It is very lax in the US. Thanks to NAFTA, it's super easy to get things across the border, hence massive amounts of arms moving from the US to Mexico. They simply come here, buy up large quantities of guns (completely legally), and smuggle them back.

There was a good article about this not too long ago, I'm going to try to dig it up.

ETA: the US also sells a lot of guns to the Mexican army which unsurprisingly end up in the hands of cartels.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/

NaturalBlond · April 2012

IIOY my comment wasn't directed at you. If you want to get technical, it was directed at Helper who said she loves her some cheap food and yard work. As far as I can tell you didn't say anything to that effect. So chillax.

pixy_stix · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
pixy_stix:
mysticporter:
I'd like to see a study some time that delves more into this. I see it thrown around a lot, and I'm not convinced it's true. If the option were not there for business to utilize illegal workers, what would actually happen? The threat seems to be that all of these jobs would go unfilled, but I wonder if that's actually true, or if businesses would be forced into paying higher wages to fill the need, and if that's actually economically viable for them or not.
There have been several studies within the last two years. The result is crops rotting in the fields, even when workers are brought here legally on visas. The American public does not want to perform manual field labor even with higher wages.
Of course I can't find any of the articles now, but one was from Colorado and the other talked about the immediate impact in Alabama.
Is there data showing that higher wages are offered? Because the way I'm looking at it is this:
IN and IL both have a lot of soy bean and corn farmers. If IN passes laws the deter illegal immigrants from coming into their state, but IL doesn't, IL can still sell cheap corn because they have cheap labor. IN has to either sell their corn for a higher price because they have to pay people more to harvest it, or they have to try to find citizens who will harvest and shuck corn for $4.25 an hour with no benefits.
If the entire nation passes immigration reform and gets tougher on illegal immigration, both IN and IL will have to raise their prices and pay higher wages and there won't be an issue of them competing with each other in two drastically different labor markets.

Yes. I'm specifically thinking of the instances in CO where the farm wages were raised to attract local laborers. What they found is that people showed up for about 2 weeks worth of onsite work, and then disappeared. They can attract a work force, they just can't retain it. Since they can't retain their workers, the efficiency of those learning on the job does not go up. They are stuck with a perpetual work force which is always new, and subject to leave during the busiest times. It's a pattern that has held through the last couple of years.

Which, if there was a time when people would be turning to "any job available" you would have thought it would be when the economy is in the toilet.

is_it_over_yet? · April 2012

NaturalBlond:

IIOY my comment wasn't directed at you. If you want to get technical, it was directed at Helper who said she loves her some cheap food and yard work. As far as I can tell you didn't say anything to that effect. So chillax.

I didn't think you were and was directing my comment to mystic, but being on my phone makes the whole quote within a quote thing weird so your comment got stuck in there. :-)

SBP, I own that I am in one sh*tty f*cking mood today and to the extent that your comment was friendly, I apologize. TBH, I read it as condescending along the lines of, "Let me explain basic economics - raise the wage, more people will do it!" If this isn't wasn't you intended, I'm sorry. I actually agree with nearly everything* you said and was reacting more to the tone that I (incorrectly) perceived.

And really, I probably need to log off for a while and, as a friend's grandfather used to say, go run around outside to get the stink blown off me.

*ETA: need to clarify - I agree that Americans might be more interested if wages were much higher and that we need to target the businesses rather than the workers.

pixy_stix · April 2012

Found it:

Upped wages to $10.50 an hour, no takers

2009 report detailing the economic impact (and shortages) of workers with pay of $10.93

3.27.04_Helper · April 2012

NaturalBlond:

IIOY my comment wasn't directed at you. If you want to get technical, it was directed at Helper who said she loves her some cheap food and yard work. As far as I can tell you didn't say anything to that effect. So chillax.

I was being slightly TIC.. but seriously when Alabama passed their law there was mass migration of hispanics out of the state and crops were left to rot in the fields. There were numerous stories about how farmers couldn't get good workers, they'd offer jobs to "americans" and they wouldn't last past lunch. These were farms paying more than minimum wage.

NaturalBlond · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
NaturalBlond:

IIOY my comment wasn't directed at you. If you want to get technical, it was directed at Helper who said she loves her some cheap food and yard work. As far as I can tell you didn't say anything to that effect. So chillax.

Then why is she quoting me? I'm confused. I'm going to go hang out in the bully teacher thread. Also, I'm going to go to work. I stayed home all morning waiting for a realtor only to reread the email from her and see that she's coming next Wednesday. I apparently did not bring my A game to life today.

No I'm confuzzled. But I'm also in a very bad mood this morning.

3.27.04_Helper · April 2012

NaturalBlond:

IIOY my comment wasn't directed at you. If you want to get technical, it was directed at Helper who said she loves her some cheap food and yard work. As far as I can tell you didn't say anything to that effect. So chillax.

I was being slightly TIC.. but seriously when Alabama passed their law there was mass migration of hispanics out of the state and crops were left to rot in the fields. There were numerous stories about how farmers couldn't get good workers, they'd offer jobs to "americans" and they wouldn't last past lunch. These were farms paying more than minimum wage.

I think I'm opening a can of worms. SB1070...

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