S/O Wiring kids to catch teachers

2Vermont · April 2012

Btw, can you tell I'm loving spring break? Next week all that changes.

Anyway, even though I completely agree that those teachers should be fired, I have to admit that I'm a bit concerned what this situation may mean for other teachers down the road. Will any parent that questions their child's teacher be more apt to try something like this? Granted, I'm not worried that I'll get caught calling a child a bastard, but what if I happen to be having a bad day and I'm not acting the way said parent thinks I should?

This just concerns me. Is there anything about this that would be considered illegal?

NariaD · April 2012

I can see it being a legal issue in an all-party consent state, but for a one-party consent state can't see where they'd have a leg to stand on legally

taratru · April 2012

This is exactly where I went as well. I feel bad for this particular kid because now no teacher is going to really want to work with him because what if his dad does it again?

It's probably not illegal, but it certainly is icky to think about.

meshaliu · April 2012

NariaDreaming:
I can see it being a legal issue in an all-party consent state, but for a one-party consent state can't see where they'd have a leg to stand on legally

In all party consent states is there a requirement that there be some expectation of privacy? Or is it just everyone consents and thems the rules? Because I wouldn't think things said in a classroom would have any expectation of privacy. Also, is the consent thing only about being admissible in court? Could the school still use it to repremand poor behavior?

Clearly, I am not a lawyer. lol

AnneShirleyBlythe · April 2012

I remember a few years ago a teacher was video taped by some students and it ended up on YouTube. I think the students got in trouble because recording the class in any way was against the code of conduct for the school.

meshaliu · April 2012

Thanks sbp!

huber22 · April 2012

I think it is kind of a terrible idea and kind of a brilliant idea.

In this case? Brilliant.

In the case where a teacher has to discipline a truly nasty kid with outrageous parents? Bad, bad, bad.

That's why I'm not on board with his idea of a law to fire teachers who are deemed bullies. Sometimes good teachers can get caught in the fray.

This is also why I am not a teacher.

taratru · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
taratru:
This is exactly where I went as well. I feel bad for this particular kid because now no teacher is going to really want to work with him because what if his dad does it again?
It's probably not illegal, but it certainly is icky to think about.
I'd work with him. I'd have no problem with that. Why do you think teachers would be hesitant to teach the kid? I'd assume most of them would just be like, "Well, I don't swear, show up to work hung over, or verbally abuse ten year olds, so we should be all good here."
I was actually wondering whether there is something like the National Practitioner Data Bank for teachers. The NPDB is for doctors and if a physician has his privileges terminated for cause or is fired for cause, it has to be reported to the NPDB. Hospitals and clinics are then supposed to include the NPDB profile in their back ground check for hiring. It's a really big deal for doctors. In fact, if the employer is sued for something the doctor did everything on the NPDB is entirely confidential and privileged so long as the employer can prove he checked the data bank. If he didn't check the data bank, then the plaintiff can get a copy of the report to see what the employer would have found if they'd done what they were supposed to do by checking it.
If there isn't something like that for teachers, there should be.

I'm having a difficult time articulating why I think so, so bear with me?

Because parents today are scary and even though I don't do those things, knowing that there is the possibility of this happening because this parent takes this kind of action just feels...threatening? Like, now I have to walk on eggshells around this child because his parent has shown the kind of extreme he can go to? In my experience, even good teachers who have *never* done anything remotely like this would probably (even briefly) wonder when it was their turn.

And when teachers apply for jobs and new licenses, they're required to sign, and have notarized, an affidavit that asks questions about discipline, reprimands, firings and the like. I don't know if there's a database for that info, but it is available to districts when they interview and hire candidates.

2Vermont · April 2012

taratru:
swimbikepuke:
taratru:

This is exactly where I went as well. I feel bad for this particular kid because now no teacher is going to really want to work with him because what if his dad does it again?

It's probably not illegal, but it certainly is icky to think about.

I'd work with him. I'd have no problem with that. Why do you think teachers would be hesitant to teach the kid? I'd assume most of them would just be like, "Well, I don't swear, show up to work hung over, or verbally abuse ten year olds, so we should be all good here."

I was actually wondering whether there is something like the National Practitioner Data Bank for teachers. The NPDB is for doctors and if a physician has his privileges terminated for cause or is fired for cause, it has to be reported to the NPDB. Hospitals and clinics are then supposed to include the NPDB profile in their back ground check for hiring. It's a really big deal for doctors. In fact, if the employer is sued for something the doctor did everything on the NPDB is entirely confidential and privileged so long as the employer can prove he checked the data bank. If he didn't check the data bank, then the plaintiff can get a copy of the report to see what the employer would have found if they'd done what they were supposed to do by checking it.

If there isn't something like that for teachers, there should be.

I'm having a difficult time articulating why I think so, so bear with me?

Because parents today are scary and even though I don't do those things, knowing that there is the possibility of this happening because this parent takes this kind of action just feels...threatening? Like, now I have to walk on eggshells around this child because his parent has shown the kind of extreme he can go to? In my experience, even good teachers who have *never* done anything remotely like this would probably (even briefly) wonder when it was their turn.

And when teachers apply for jobs and new licenses, they're required to sign, and have notarized, an affidavit that asks questions about discipline, reprimands, firings and the like. I don't know if there's a database for that info, but it is available to districts when they interview and hire candidates.

**nods in agreement** I think, to some extent, teachers are already walking on egg shells. Knowing you're dealing with a parent that went to this extent?

2Vermont · April 2012

swimbikepuke:

I actually thought about that too. In some states it's illegal to tape record someone if they're unaware they're being tape recorded and although I think those teachers deserve to spend the rest of their days being the sh!t shovelers at the elephant exhibit, I also thought, "Dude, I'm not sure you're following the law there." It really depends on the state.

The other thing, though, is that we've had several discussion on here about cameras in the classroom. And at least for special needs classrooms, I think that might be a very good idea. Those kids can't communicate what happens to them during the day. And as a mom of a toddler, sometimes the communication you get from kids is sort of unclear and you're not sure whether they did something wrong or some other kid or the teacher did (I always think of PTS telling me she was put in time out for hitting a kid and then the next day when I marched her up to the teacher and the kid to apologize for disrupting the class, the teacher said PTS had never hit anyone in any class ever).

In somewhat of a tangent, I do have to commend this father because it's easy to be told that your kid is a "problem" and assume that's the end of the story. It's also easy to think that you're a lunatic crazy person for having a gut feeling that something's not right. What he did was brave. Possibly illegal. But brave.

I don't know SBP. The student I work with right now is rarely verbal (maybe 1-2 words at a time). Although I can understand the concern, I would have to really consider whether I would want to work under those conditions.....being on tape all day long. Have people come by to see how things are going, etc, but to watch me like I am not a professional? Like I'm already guilty? Like we're just waiting for a shoe to drop?

No way. And I think that school would be missing out on a really good teacher who only wants the best for her kids.

Vanessa Doofenshmirtz · April 2012

While I appreciate that this could be viewed as the next ugly step in helicopter parenting, it's justified (in my opinion only...not commenting on legality) when there is suspicion of danger or major mistreatment. I thought about this after several national incidents where kids with autism were bullied, and one incident ended tragically with the victim stabbing the bully in self-defense. I'd rather overreact a bit to prevent a bully situation from escalating, or to explore suspicion of abuse.

I worry about my child being more vulnerable to sexual abuse because of disabilities and the fact that he's late to potty-train (since he requires adult help getting cleaned up). So, while icky, I'd wire my kid.

Further, if there is anything they wouldn't feel comfortable saying to a child in the presence of the child's parents, that's an indication that it's inappropriate. Case in point, this week's poster who lectured two black "knuckle-heads" (her words) wouldn't have given the little race-themed "pep talk" in front of their parents.

2Vermont · April 2012

Vanessa Doofenshmirtz:
While I appreciate that this could be viewed as the next ugly step in helicopter parenting, it's justified (in my opinion only...not commenting on legality) when there is suspicion of danger or major mistreatment. I thought about this after several national incidents where kids with autism were bullied, and one incident ended tragically with the victim stabbing the bully in self-defense. I'd rather overreact a bit to prevent a bully situation from escalating, or to explore suspicion of abuse.

I worry about my child being more vulnerable to sexual abuse because of disabilities and the fact that he's late to potty-train (since he requires adult help getting cleaned up). So, while icky, I'd wire my kid.

Further, if there is anything they wouldn't feel comfortable saying to a child in the presence of the child's parents, that's an indication that it's inappropriate. Case in point, this week's poster who lectured two black "knuckle-heads" (her words) wouldn't have given the little race-themed "pep talk" in front of their parents.

While I agree with you re: the race-themed pep talk, I disagree with the first sentence. Ic an not come up with an example because it's reaching far back into the recesses of my mind, but some parents are hypersensitive. Therefore, there are definitely things that may feel uncomfortable, but they are not necessarily inappropriate. This is where the aforementioned walking on egg shells comes into play. Something that should be okay to say/do is not.

JulieFe · April 2012

2Vermont:
Vanessa Doofenshmirtz:
While I appreciate that this could be viewed as the next ugly step in helicopter parenting, it's justified (in my opinion only...not commenting on legality) when there is suspicion of danger or major mistreatment. I thought about this after several national incidents where kids with autism were bullied, and one incident ended tragically with the victim stabbing the bully in self-defense. I'd rather overreact a bit to prevent a bully situation from escalating, or to explore suspicion of abuse.

I worry about my child being more vulnerable to sexual abuse because of disabilities and the fact that he's late to potty-train (since he requires adult help getting cleaned up). So, while icky, I'd wire my kid.

Further, if there is anything they wouldn't feel comfortable saying to a child in the presence of the child's parents, that's an indication that it's inappropriate. Case in point, this week's poster who lectured two black "knuckle-heads" (her words) wouldn't have given the little race-themed "pep talk" in front of their parents.

While I agree with you re: the race-themed pep talk, I disagree with the first sentence. I can not come up with an example because it's reaching far back into the recesses of my mind, but some parents are hypersensitive. Therefore, there are definitely things that may feel uncomfortable, but they are not necessarily inappropriate. This is where the aforementioned walking on egg shells comes into play. Something that should be okay to say/do is not.

Strongly agree. There are parents who would try to micromanage and would just not like your teaching style, so they'd have all those constructive hints, tips, etc., or want their child treated in a certain way (i.e. with kid gloves).. Due to my personal experience and cynical view of some administrators, I feel like they'd seize on the two minutes you sat in your chair and use it as an excuse to give you a bad reference.

taratru · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
2Vermont:
swimbikepuke:

I actually thought about that too. In some states it's illegal to tape record someone if they're unaware they're being tape recorded and although I think those teachers deserve to spend the rest of their days being the sh!t shovelers at the elephant exhibit, I also thought, "Dude, I'm not sure you're following the law there." It really depends on the state.

The other thing, though, is that we've had several discussion on here about cameras in the classroom. And at least for special needs classrooms, I think that might be a very good idea. Those kids can't communicate what happens to them during the day. And as a mom of a toddler, sometimes the communication you get from kids is sort of unclear and you're not sure whether they did something wrong or some other kid or the teacher did (I always think of PTS telling me she was put in time out for hitting a kid and then the next day when I marched her up to the teacher and the kid to apologize for disrupting the class, the teacher said PTS had never hit anyone in any class ever).

In somewhat of a tangent, I do have to commend this father because it's easy to be told that your kid is a "problem" and assume that's the end of the story. It's also easy to think that you're a lunatic crazy person for having a gut feeling that something's not right. What he did was brave. Possibly illegal. But brave.

I don't know SBP. The student I work with right now is rarely verbal (maybe 1-2 words at a time). Although I can understand the concern, I would have to really consider whether I would want to work under those conditions.....being on tape all day long. Have people come by to see how things are going, etc, but to watch me like I am not a professional? Like I'm already guilty? Like we're just waiting for a shoe to drop?

No way. And I think that school would be missing out on a really good teacher who only wants the best for her kids.
This is weird for me to wrap my head around because I've never been at a job where my "product" wasn't being constantly reviewed an evaluated. When I'm at court, there are other attorneys around, there's the judge, sometimes there's a jury and I guess, technically there could be cameras though my lawyering is not likely to be worth the effort of hauling that stuff into the court room.
When I'm in my office, anything I write is going to be submitted to a client or to another attorney. If I take a deposition, it's recorded and the client could easily ask to see it (and some have in the past)... I guess because so much of what I "create" as a profession does become part of some kind of permanent record, it's weird for me to think of a job where having a camera in your room would feel invasive. I would assume that it would only be reviewed if there were a problem and that it might be helpful in some circumstances where a teacher is being chronically bullied by a student.

In education, though, the "product" can't be judged using the same criteria for every child. There are plenty of things I say to kids I wouldn't say to/in front of their parents because the context of our student/teacher relationship is different than the parent/teacher one. And the thought of having the ability to form those relationships differently because I'm being constantly viewed on camera or heard on tape would fundamentally change the way I teach students. There's an element of personality to each teacher that parents sometimes just. don't. get. I'm a good teacher not because I'm good at English, but because I'm good with kids. That changes when I'm not allowed the flexibility and professional decision making freedom to create that relationship and that's what would happen if I were videotaped/recorded all day, every day, just waiting for some parent to flip their lid.

However, I absolutely agree all of that goes out the window when safety of children is involved.

Vanessa Doofenshmirtz · April 2012

JulieFe:
2Vermont:
Vanessa Doofenshmirtz:
While I appreciate that this could be viewed as the next ugly step in helicopter parenting, it's justified (in my opinion only...not commenting on legality) when there is suspicion of danger or major mistreatment. I thought about this after several national incidents where kids with autism were bullied, and one incident ended tragically with the victim stabbing the bully in self-defense. I'd rather overreact a bit to prevent a bully situation from escalating, or to explore suspicion of abuse.

I worry about my child being more vulnerable to sexual abuse because of disabilities and the fact that he's late to potty-train (since he requires adult help getting cleaned up). So, while icky, I'd wire my kid.

Further, if there is anything they wouldn't feel comfortable saying to a child in the presence of the child's parents, that's an indication that it's inappropriate. Case in point, this week's poster who lectured two black "knuckle-heads" (her words) wouldn't have given the little race-themed "pep talk" in front of their parents.

While I agree with you re: the race-themed pep talk, I disagree with the first sentence. I can not come up with an example because it's reaching far back into the recesses of my mind, but some parents are hypersensitive. Therefore, there are definitely things that may feel uncomfortable, but they are not necessarily inappropriate. This is where the aforementioned walking on egg shells comes into play. Something that should be okay to say/do is not.
Strongly agree. There are parents who would try to micromanage and would just not like your teaching style, so they'd have all those constructive hints, tips, etc., or want their child treated in a certain way (i.e. with kid gloves).. Due to my personal experience and cynical view of some administrators, I feel like they'd seize on the two minutes you sat in your chair and use it as an excuse to give you a bad reference.

I can see your point. If you felt you couldn't say the thing because of a specifically sensitive parent, sure, it could be that it's their hang up.

curmudgeon · April 2012

swimbikepuke:
2Vermont:
swimbikepuke:

I actually thought about that too. In some states it's illegal to tape record someone if they're unaware they're being tape recorded and although I think those teachers deserve to spend the rest of their days being the sh!t shovelers at the elephant exhibit, I also thought, "Dude, I'm not sure you're following the law there." It really depends on the state.

The other thing, though, is that we've had several discussion on here about cameras in the classroom. And at least for special needs classrooms, I think that might be a very good idea. Those kids can't communicate what happens to them during the day. And as a mom of a toddler, sometimes the communication you get from kids is sort of unclear and you're not sure whether they did something wrong or some other kid or the teacher did (I always think of PTS telling me she was put in time out for hitting a kid and then the next day when I marched her up to the teacher and the kid to apologize for disrupting the class, the teacher said PTS had never hit anyone in any class ever).

In somewhat of a tangent, I do have to commend this father because it's easy to be told that your kid is a "problem" and assume that's the end of the story. It's also easy to think that you're a lunatic crazy person for having a gut feeling that something's not right. What he did was brave. Possibly illegal. But brave.

I don't know SBP. The student I work with right now is rarely verbal (maybe 1-2 words at a time). Although I can understand the concern, I would have to really consider whether I would want to work under those conditions.....being on tape all day long. Have people come by to see how things are going, etc, but to watch me like I am not a professional? Like I'm already guilty? Like we're just waiting for a shoe to drop?

No way. And I think that school would be missing out on a really good teacher who only wants the best for her kids.

This is weird for me to wrap my head around because I've never been at a job where my "product" wasn't being constantly reviewed an evaluated. When I'm at court, there are other attorneys around, there's the judge, sometimes there's a jury and I guess, technically there could be cameras though my lawyering is not likely to be worth the effort of hauling that stuff into the court room.

When I'm in my office, anything I write is going to be submitted to a client or to another attorney. If I take a deposition, it's recorded and the client could easily ask to see it (and some have in the past)... I guess because so much of what I "create" as a profession does become part of some kind of permanent record, it's weird for me to think of a job where having a camera in your room would feel invasive. I would assume that it would only be reviewed if there were a problem and that it might be helpful in some circumstances where a teacher is being chronically bullied by a student.

IDK, being recorded while doing a job seems really uncomfortable to me. I used to prepare minutes for board meetings (the meeting recorded and broadcast live, up on the dias in front of the entire room) so "on record" so to speak and not a problem. But I would feel very different if someone sat in my office inspecting every movement throughout the day or if my boss installed a camera to keep tabs on me. You can produce a professional work product but still do things you wouldn't want broadcast (like Nest in my case Embarrassed ).

In this instance however, I think wiring the kid was brilliant and good for the dad for taking action.

KateAggie · April 2012

.....wrong post...nothing to see here, folks. Move it along.

3sthecharm · April 2012

Where I work every word I speak to someone is recorded. No exageration. So , this wouldnt bother me. And yes thers been a time or two Ive been caught not speaking as politely as I should. But Id say having been recorded for 8 years Ive never cussed at someone and thats with them yelling at me for up to an hour at time when they dont agree with our policies. Someone in authority calls my kid a bastard because they are stressed out. I think not.

SunMoon&Stars · April 2012

Clinicians, at least ones who are employed by hospitals like I am, are constantly scrutinized. Every word and action is subject to criticism because the patients' rights to be treated appropriately come first.. So should students' rights to be treated appropriately. I'm not losing any sleep if teachers feel like they have to " walk on eggshells" because an atrocious situation was brought to light. The only alternative is give them the freedom do whatever they want without consequence, which has been proven unacceptable.

As a parent, I'm willing to play fair. But anyone who has power over my child goddamn better play fair, too.

EloiseWeenieSkipperdee · April 2012

You would think that having a teacher with aides in the classroom, that between the adults in the room there would be some form of accountability. I think this is the case in most classrooms. Someone should have had the sense to stop this awful behavior towards the student. Now in this classroom, unfortunately the teacher and aides (was there just the one or more?) encouraged each others' bad behavior. I'm disgusted that these women got to the point that they thought their behavior towards these kids was acceptable and humorous. From the school system's perspective, I don't know if more parent observation days, or routine in-class evaluations from the principal/school board would help foster a healthy teaching environment.

I'm in the impressed with the dad camp. I hope the teachers that were recorded are beyond mortified and will never work with children again.

2Vermont · April 2012

SunMoon&Stars:

Clinicians, at least ones who are employed by hospitals like I am, are constantly scrutinized. Every word and action is subject to criticism because the patients' rights to be treated appropriately come first.. So should students' rights to be treated appropriately. I'm not losing any sleep if teachers feel like they have to " walk on eggshells" because an atrocious situation was brought to light. The only alternative is give them the freedom do whatever they want without consequence, which has been proven unacceptable.

As a parent, I'm willing to play fair. But anyone who has power over my child goddamn better play fair, too.

Somehow I don't believe you'll play fair. The fact that youdon't care what good teachers go through because of situations like these shows you don't get it and don't care to get it.

Based on your post history on this topic, I'm pretty darn sure you would outright assume the teacher is wrong and to blame every.single.time. Guilty until proven innocent, right?

Heather R · April 2012

2Vermont:
SunMoon&Stars:

Clinicians, at least ones who are employed by hospitals like I am, are constantly scrutinized. Every word and action is subject to criticism because the patients' rights to be treated appropriately come first.. So should students' rights to be treated appropriately. I'm not losing any sleep if teachers feel like they have to " walk on eggshells" because an atrocious situation was brought to light. The only alternative is give them the freedom do whatever they want without consequence, which has been proven unacceptable.

As a parent, I'm willing to play fair. But anyone who has power over my child goddamn better play fair, too.

Somehow I don't believe you'll play fair. The fact that youdon't care what good teachers go through because of situations like these shows you don't get it and don't care to get it.

Based on your post history on this topic, I'm pretty darn sure you would outright assume the teacher is wrong and to blame every.single.time. Guilty until proven innocent, right?

whoa. What is op's past commentary?

LittleMoxie · April 2012

2Vermont:

I don't know SBP. The student I work with right now is rarely verbal (maybe 1-2 words at a time). Although I can understand the concern, I would have to really consider whether I would want to work under those conditions.....being on tape all day long. Have people come by to see how things are going, etc, but to watch me like I am not a professional? Like I'm already guilty? Like we're just waiting for a shoe to drop?

No way. And I think that school would be missing out on a really good teacher who only wants the best for her kids.

I don't have kids, so perhpaps I'd feel differently, but I'm with 2V here. That sounds like a horrible way to work and a crappy work environment. I think this would do more harm than good.

SunMoon&Stars · April 2012

Heather R:
2Vermont:
SunMoon&Stars:

Clinicians, at least ones who are employed by hospitals like I am, are constantly scrutinized. Every word and action is subject to criticism because the patients' rights to be treated appropriately come first.. So should students' rights to be treated appropriately. I'm not losing any sleep if teachers feel like they have to " walk on eggshells" because an atrocious situation was brought to light. The only alternative is give them the freedom do whatever they want without consequence, which has been proven unacceptable.

As a parent, I'm willing to play fair. But anyone who has power over my child goddamn better play fair, too.

Somehow I don't believe you'll play fair. The fact that youdon't care what good teachers go through because of situations like these shows you don't get it and don't care to get it.

Based on your post history on this topic, I'm pretty darn sure you would outright assume the teacher is wrong and to blame every.single.time. Guilty until proven innocent, right?
whoa. What is op's past commentary?

She's talking about the fact that I'm pretty outspoken about the bullying issue.

2V, you're forgetting that every comment I've ever made about bullying has been based on cases in which the situation has already gone way too far and the circumstances are known - not everyday scenarios where there are a number of possibilities remaining.

Yes, I've gotten very angry over KNOWN abuse issues that are deliberately ignored even when reported, but it's quite a leap to say that means I would assume issues exist when there's no reason to do so.

Question - If this dad hadn't wired his son and just went in talked to the teacher, do you honestly think the teacher would have said "Oh yeah, I screamed at him and called him an idiot. You see, I was hung over". Personally, I'm pretty sure she would have denied everything and said the child's problems were all in his head.

Am I to assume that this was the last abusive teacher on the planet, and she's caught now so nothing like this can ever, ever hapoen again?

Knitty · April 2012

It doesn't bother me the way nanny cams do. Because the wire is on the child and recording voice, then you know you're not in private, and what it catches will the things you were intending to say to a person. A nanny cam in the lounge room could easily catch you picking my nose while the baby's napping.

LittleMoxie · April 2012

swimbikepuke:

This is weird for me to wrap my head around because I've never been at a job where my "product" wasn't being constantly reviewed an evaluated. When I'm at court, there are other attorneys around, there's the judge, sometimes there's a jury and I guess, technically there could be cameras though my lawyering is not likely to be worth the effort of hauling that stuff into the court room.

When I'm in my office, anything I write is going to be submitted to a client or to another attorney. If I take a deposition, it's recorded and the client could easily ask to see it (and some have in the past)... I guess because so much of what I "create" as a profession does become part of some kind of permanent record, it's weird for me to think of a job where having a camera in your room would feel invasive. I would assume that it would only be reviewed if there were a problem and that it might be helpful in some circumstances where a teacher is being chronically bullied by a student.

Yes, but while in your office researching, there isn't a camera seeing how much time you spend online, if your Westlaw/Lexis searches are efficient enough, etc. I think that's the level of "being watched" this would relate to.

LittleMoxie · April 2012

swimbikepuke:

Well, I have to submit bills of my time divided up into 6 minute increments so my clients know my level of efficiency and my bosses know exactly what I'm doing on my files. And both Westlaw and Lexis provide reports of the amount of time you spent researching, so, while there's not a camera, there's a complete and accurate record. If it showed that I spent 3 hours online researching the standard of summary judgment (something I should already well know), and I tried to bill for that, I'd get my ass handed to me. But again, there's very little about my office time that could actually harm someone. The stakes just aren't as high and even with that, the supervision and accountability is enormous.

I meant more that you bill in 6 minute increments, but no one is watching to make sure that you aren't mixing that with nest time/etc. You do that yourself and judge how much time you wasted that day. So you only bill for the time you were working, which is obviously less than the time you were in the office. Imagine someone wiring how often you talked to co-workers, bathroom breaks, everything you said on the phone (your personal phone), etc. That seems closer to wiring to me.

But you are right about the stakes being higher. Does that mean it's worth it or OK though? That's a tough question. I can see though, why 2V and other teachers would not want this level of being watched and do think it's different from what attorneys do. Although I'm corporate, so I'm not "watched" nearly as much as you were/are.

mrsbecky07 · April 2012

I am not sure how I feel about wiring kids to catch teachers. In this situation it is easy to say "well it was a brilliant idea on the dad's part" because it resulted in the abuse being caught and hopefully stopped. but I know there are probably a lot of legal issues involved in situations like this and it can get complicated and murky very quickly.

But to go to the point about the cameras in the classrooms - 2V, taratru etc all seem to be assuming parents would have access to the cameras, right, and be able to watch the class all day if they wanted. To me that is borderline.....invasive? something....but I can see the cameras being perfectly acceptable if they aren't available for public view without good reason (maybe not quite as extreme as a warrant, but something like that.) Beyond that they basically are just tapes that get stored and may be reviewed periodically by administrators or something, but but its not like a live feed would be uploaded every day to the internet for the parents to review. I think in that regard it would be a good protection for the students AND teachers when behavior or actions are called into question.

2Vermont · April 2012

SunMoon&Stars:
Heather R:
2Vermont:
SunMoon&Stars:

Clinicians, at least ones who are employed by hospitals like I am, are constantly scrutinized. Every word and action is subject to criticism because the patients' rights to be treated appropriately come first.. So should students' rights to be treated appropriately. I'm not losing any sleep if teachers feel like they have to " walk on eggshells" because an atrocious situation was brought to light. The only alternative is give them the freedom do whatever they want without consequence, which has been proven unacceptable.

As a parent, I'm willing to play fair. But anyone who has power over my child goddamn better play fair, too.

Somehow I don't believe you'll play fair. The fact that youdon't care what good teachers go through because of situations like these shows you don't get it and don't care to get it.

Based on your post history on this topic, I'm pretty darn sure you would outright assume the teacher is wrong and to blame every.single.time. Guilty until proven innocent, right?
whoa. What is op's past commentary?

She's talking about the fact that I'm pretty outspoken about the bullying issue.

2V, you're forgetting that every comment I've ever made about bullying has been based on cases in which the situation has already gone way too far and the circumstances are known - not everyday scenarios where there are a number of possibilities remaining.

Yes, I've gotten very angry over KNOWN abuse issues that are deliberately ignored even when reported, but it's quite a leap to say that means I would assume issues exist when there's no reason to do so.

Question - If this dad hadn't wired his son and just went in talked to the teacher, do you honestly think the teacher would have said "Oh yeah, I screamed at him and called him an idiot. You see, I was hung over". Personally, I'm pretty sure she would have denied everything and said the child's problems were all in his head.

Am I to assume that this was the last abusive teacher on the planet, and she's caught now so nothing like this can ever, ever hapoen again?

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I'm pretty sure you have a tendency to assume teachers are at fault. I rarely get a certain feeling from certain posters that stick with me and this sticks with me.

Regardless, as for your question: absolutely that teacher would have denied it. I'm not saying she would have admitted to wrongdoing. However, that is not the only thing this father could have done. He could have then gone to admin and asked that the principal to speak to the teachers. It is possible that if the principal spoke with the teachers, it would at least make them think twice. The principal could also do a random observation/walk by the classroom etc (personally I do think that when admin is more proactive in this regard there is less of a chance of this sort of thing happening).

I'm not sure that this father tried any of these things.

SunMoon&Stars · April 2012

2Vermont:

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I'm pretty sure you have a tendency to assume teachers are at fault. I rarely get a certain feeling from certain posters that stick with me and this sticks with me.

Regardless, as for your question: absolutely that teacher would have denied it. I'm not saying she would have admitted to wrongdoing. However, that is not the only thing this father could have done. He could have then gone to admin and asked that the principal to speak to the teachers. It is possible that if the principal spoke with the teachers, it would at least make them think twice. The principal could also do a random observation/walk by the classroom etc (personally I do think that when admin is more proactive in this regard there is less of a chance of this sort of thing happening).

I'm not sure that this father tried any of these things.

Yes, your memory is wrong. Again, my comments about teachers have been limited to publicly known cases in which it has been established who's at fault.

Not assuming teachers are always right does NOT = assuming they're always wrong, and quite honestly I'm getting sick of the assertion that it does.

WRT to the rest of your post, I'm going to give the father the benefit of the doubt and presume he did try other interventions.

2Vermont · April 2012

SunMoon&Stars:
2Vermont:

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I'm pretty sure you have a tendency to assume teachers are at fault. I rarely get a certain feeling from certain posters that stick with me and this sticks with me.

Regardless, as for your question: absolutely that teacher would have denied it. I'm not saying she would have admitted to wrongdoing. However, that is not the only thing this father could have done. He could have then gone to admin and asked that the principal to speak to the teachers. It is possible that if the principal spoke with the teachers, it would at least make them think twice. The principal could also do a random observation/walk by the classroom etc (personally I do think that when admin is more proactive in this regard there is less of a chance of this sort of thing happening).

I'm not sure that this father tried any of these things.

Yes, your memory is wrong. Again, my comments about teachers have been limited to publicly known cases in which it has been established who's at fault.

Not assuming teachers are always right does NOT = assuming they're always wrong, and quite honestly I'm getting sick of the assertion that it does.

WRT to the rest of your post, I'm going to give the father the benefit of the doubt and presume he did try other interventions.

Guess it's your memory against mine...and mine generally sucks so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But I won't be surprised when I see otherwise.

Considering another post on this matter, it sounds like he reviewed a report by a behavioral specialist on Feb 8, 2012....and wired his son on Feb 17, 2012. Other than speaking with the teachers (which I agree isn't going to solve anything), it sounds like he made a huge, quick leap to the tape. I can understnad letting one's emotions rule here and doing something drastic, but I am not convinced that this man tried other interventions.

S/O Wiring kids to catch teachers

Re: S/O Wiring kids to catch teachers

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