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Re: Junior Seau found dead of allegedly self-inflicted gun shot wound.
Right now, I'm reacting emotionally (shocker). My first instinct was to pick a side to sympathize with - and I chose to sympathize with his kids because they are suffering, and will continue to suffer, as a result of Seau's conscious act.
I'm sure that I'll develop some sympathy for Seau once a certain amount of time has passed. And I'll agree with HAB that the sympathies in question aren't mutually exclusive.
When sh!t like this happens, we often pick a position immediately - ignoring the validity of other ones as a result. That's what I'm doing here. I'm pissed at Seau for succumbing to a weakness at the expense of his kids.
Sure, maybe his kids are better off, or will be better off, without him. No one can know that right now.
But when other people accuse me of being wrong for calling him weak, I will defend it because... sh!t. Of COURSE he was weak! We're all weak at many things, often. But his weakness took away their father. I choose to be pissed at him for that.
I'm sure I'll be accused of backpedaling a bit as a result of this post's implications, but I'm so okay with that. I reacted emotionally, and it's not the first time I did. But I'm convinced that once said time has passed that I'll still be of the mind that he was weak. And selfish.
I said I didn't come out arguing. Of course I later reacted to others that chose to argue. Read the words I type. It could help you for future reference.
People trying to broaden my perspective on mental illness has nothing to do with my empathy for his kids. Nor should it.
Would you say someone with cancer is weak? You sound woefully uninformed, at best, about the nature of mental illness.
I can't get behind calling it a weakness. Suicide is often a side effect and/or symptom of depression or other mental illness. I wouldn't call it a weakness to die of cancer.
And yes, I understand that suicide is a willful act while succumbing to cancer is not. But suicide is often a willful act made under the pressure of illness. I'm not sure anyone who commits suicide, particularly in such a way has rationally thought everything out. Their thinking is disordered, usually due to the illness.
Click me, click me!
Would you say cancer is a mental illness?
You can empathize with the children without wishing hell on their father.
In any case, I hope both the departed and those left behind are able to find some measure of peace. I just can't fathom being that twisted up, that desperate only to die and find yourself just as desolate. It just seems cruel to wish upon someone a fate worse than the one that drove them to commit suicide in the first place.
Click me, click me!
Well as I said, I'll probably loosen my criticism of him a tad with the passing of time. And the fact that I don't believe in hell should take away some of the sting.
I hope that his kids realize one day how much he loved them and that the decision that he made this morning was not a reflection of their worth in his life.
I would have thought heart attack or stroke were more of a comparrison, for most (not all because sometimes genetics just suck) there is a lifestyle factor in which you can control, but we all know that's not as easy as it sounds...
Except that it most likely wasn't a conscious act, whether it be the result of mental illness unrelated to his career or because of brain damage. Would you say the same thing about soldiers who commit suicide after suffering traumatic brain injury? Because that's pretty much the same thing as what posters are speculating might have happened to Seau.
I'm sure his kids really feel sympathy in your vitriol for the man they loved.
Oh, that is fantastic. This...this is wine. Yeah. Look what all these idiots are drinking. Look at these dicks! Obviously it's not really delicious, like hot chocolate or Coke, but for wine...brilliant.
I have to admit that my first reaction to D's comments was that he was looking to rile things up here....I know, hard to believe. ;-) Then, when I realized my initial reaction was wrong, I thought the level of anger towards this father made me think this touched a nerve with D...and if it did, then I think his reaction was probably understandable (ie. not saying I agree with it, but I can understand it). Not my business for sure but that is what I thought.
I thought about this post all night.
I will admit to my first thought being that suicide is a selfish act that impacts those left behind much more than the person who did the act. Especially his children.
I have no idea what his relationship was with his kids or how old they were, but they were my first thought when I heard that he had three.
My kids would think that I was being selfish if I ever did something like that, I think it would be any childs first instinct. It would take a very long time for them to forgive me if they ever did.
BUT...I know that my last thought would be of my children and I also know that if my brain was overriding my children then I would have to be VERY VERY ill for me to go ahead and commit suicide.
Amen.
My father committed suicide when he was 45 years old. I was 18; my siblings were 19 and 16. It was really freaking hard after he died to wonder how he could do that, in our family home, surrounded by pictures and reminders of his family he loved so much and worked so hard for. We had a happy family life. My parents had a good marriage. But depression is a really strong disease.
I don't know Junior Seau. He wasn't my father. By all accounts, he was a good man and a loving father.
For me, it's so offensive to for someone to insinuate that my father's love for me or my siblings wasn't enough to keep him alive. That...in a roundabout way...blames me for his death. It's so offensive to call him weak for succumbing to his disease because the pressure to act so strong all the time is what kept him from getting treatment for his disease sooner.
My father fought and tried to stay alive. He told my mom what he was planning. My mom dragged him to the doctor, who told him he needed rest and a vacation. At this point, he already had a plan. He didn't need rest, he needed medical care. He was dead within a week. Who knows what Junior Seau did or who he reached out to or how he tried to stay alive? We don't know the battles he fought and won, we just know the one he lost.
If he didn't reach out, it was probably for fear of being seen as weak, selfish. Perpetuating this belief doesn't help keep people alive. It shames them into hiding their disease. I think the tough guy mentality is so dangerous here. My dad was a tough guy - and I think part of that kept him from getting help for his disease sooner.
People don't kill themselves because of a relationship problems or problems at work or financial problems. People kill themselves because depression robs them of the ability to react to these problems in a rational, healthy way.
Overture, it's too bad you find offense in my calling Seau weak. I'm most certainly not sorry though.
ETA: that was meant for CallingAllAngels actually.
ETA2: Kinda interesting, this thread. A lot of murderers turn out to be insane/sick, and I'm of the position in most of those cases that even the crazy suspect should be punished in full. It's interesting that some of us (a few of us) are consistent there.
:::nods:::
Succumbing to a weakness, a lifestyle factor. Wow, it's too bad Jr was just pill popping for that over-diagnosed depression, right?
FWIW, Dyl, I do agree that many (most?) perpetrators of serious violent crimes are mentally ill. Like suicide, I don't believe a truly healthy brain is capable of murder, maybe save crimes of passion. I support a wider definition of the insanity defense and incarceration focused on rehabilitation, not punishment. But I know my position is rare, and I agree that it's inconsistent that sociopathy is not treated with the same compassion as other mental illnesses.
i'm very glad i missed the rampant ignorance of dylanite's argument yesterday.
However ignorant it may appear to (or actually) be, I'm sorry that some people choose to be offended by mere speculation about an individual unrelated to their own experiences. I'll never understand why it's so common to strain one's self just so they can be offended by something that has nothing to do with them.
Obviously that's not an apology for anything I've said, so I'm compelled to admit that it wasn't intended to be.
Once we don't have to speculate (presuming facts come out to explain his train of thought and the reasons for them), I know my position will be forced to adapt to them. I'll likely have a different position at that time. But I'll be surprised if I cease from thinking he was weak for possibly succumbing to an illness that makes one weak. Weakness = weakness, no matter the cause.
I had to turn SportsCenter off because of this. His mom made me ugly cry.
I heard her on the radio. Awful
I don't think there is anything wrong with calling it weakness. I don't think weakness is necessarily a negative or positive thing; it just is. We all have weaknesses, and we all sometimes succumb to those weaknesses.
I tend to skew a bit toward Dylanite in this thread, which I'm sure will endear me to no one. But I've had people in my life who have committed suicide, and I'm still angry, and I still think they were terribly selfish. Particularly in the case of those who killed themselves in a gruesome way in the family home and left their loved ones to come home and find them; I find that unconscionable, and I don't care how ill they were. My sister's FIL spent weeks updating his will and meeting with financial advisors and transferring bank accounts, planning for the well-being of his family after his death -- and then horrifyingly, shot himself in the face in the g*ddamn garage while his wife was out shopping, so that when she came home and opened the garage door, it was to discover blood and brains and gore covering the garage and her beloved husband sprawled headless on the f*cking floor.
So yeah. I judge.
I have compassion for the deceased in that I hope they find peace, whatever the means; but I also have anger, and I also think the act of suicide is terribly and destructively selfish. Particularly in the case of people who have support systems and families and therapists and any number of means for help at their disposal.
Updated September 2012.
Yes. And it's a HUGE stigma in the African American community. Just pray. It'll be ok. Black folks are strong! Our ancestors survived slavery! You don't get to be weak minded. We watched a male friend of ours battle depression for almost two years. It was so hard to watch this once bubbly guy go to basically living in his car and being beyond slovenly. Like your H KA, thus guy's wife battled it with him. She made sure that he got on meds, checked him into a behavioral clinic. I shudder to think what would have happened if she didn't stand by him and made sure he got treatment.
Yeah, black folks have a long way to go in acknowledging mental illness. For instance, my brother is diagnosed bipolar. My mom is a good mother and loves all of us but it simply never occured to her that his behavior were symptoms of mental illness and not just bad behavior. It never occurred to any of us actually. We just thought he was a stubborn kid and needed more discipline.
As to LHC's point, yeah, it's definately a selfish act and I can understand the pain and anger people feel, particularly under the circumstances she related. I guess I just don't think suicidal people consider those things. There's something disordered and wrong in their thinking and you can tell that just by her example. There is nothing logical about taking care of the finances and putting your affairs in order and then leaving yourself to be found that way. None. My only explanation is that he obviously couldn't be thinking clearly.
Click me, click me!
I don't know what his thought processes entailed, or whether or not he was thinking clearly enough -- but the fact that he was so meticulous, so detailed, about taking care of everything else, and then so callous and unthinking about the actual death makes me furious.
Updated September 2012.
KA, you are being far more understanding that I am right now. Dyl, this is just uncalled for. Maybe it's because I have a parent who made multiple suicide attempts but I find your comments callous and hateful. Are you bored or something today?
Maybe you found them callous and hateful because they were callous and hateful. I tend to be callous and hateful when emotionally reacting to things I hate.