2nd Amendment

CoffeeBeen · December 2012

MommyLiberty5013:
GeraldoRivera:
snp605:

I find it interesting though of the countries with fewest mass gun killings, several of them have WAY more lenient gun laws than we do. In particular, it is estimated that in Switzerland there are at least 420,000 ASSAULT rifles owned by private citizens for a population of around 8 million. Sweden's gun laws are very generous. Italy's gun laws are fairly relaxed as are Ireland's (which has a very high rate of gun ownership) relatively speaking with consideration that in some countries guns are completely banned. Meanwhile you have countries like East Timor and most African countries which have laws making gun ownership 100% illegal yet have large roving bands of illegal militias committing all sorts of horrible gun atrocities pretty much unchecked. These atrocities are just as bad if not worse than the mass killings mentioned here. Maybe more so because it happens so frequently that it doesn't get reported on like it does over here so there are no memorials and cries for stricter gun laws or victim's compensation funds.

I believe the issues that cause the gun violence stem far more often from poverty, classism and the big black hole that is our mental health system. One of the big differences between a place like here and Africa is that you can earn enough money to buy a gun if you are a whack job and thus go shoot your boss and 15 co-workers. Over there your opportunity is to join a warlord or become one to get access to the ability to act out your sick fantasies. You take guns away here and the whackjobs will then bomb or poison people because you haven't gone to the root of the issue.

Your first sentence is just not true. Italy, Ireland, Sweden, even Switzerland all have gun laws that are FAR more restrictive than here. Switzerland (which has by far the loosest gun laws in Western Europe), for example, you must have a permit to carry weapons in public, and you must pass an exam in order to get such a permit (plus state a legitimate reason for wanting a carry permit, not just 'i want one'). And this permit is only for one specific type of firearm that's on the permit and it's only good for five years. You have to have a permit just to buy a gun, and you're only allowed to buy 3 guns with that permit.
In the US, it's a joke to get a carry permit in many states (you just apply and if you aren't a felon or on record as mentally ill, you get it automatically), and the permit lets you carry basically any gun you want. Anybody without a record can go into a gun store and buy as many guns as they want, no permit required.
Our violence issues do stem from the issues you state, I completely agree. But I do not agree that guns are irrelevant. It's a hell of a lot easier for a mentally disturbed person to kill lots of people with a gun than with a knife or baseball bat. And it's a lot easier for a criminal to commit violent crimes with a gun as well. The more guns there are, the more gun crimes you will have. You'll never eliminate them, as I said, but you can drastically reduce them.
We just choose not to do so as a society.
Just one problem, the mentally disturbed and criminals don't come upon their guns as law abiding citizens do...stricter gun laws won't prevent a crazy person from accessing the weapons they want. If this is your case then what we need isn't stricter gun laws - it's stricter laws limiting or eliminating the Black Market for firearms. All you'd be doing otherwise is limiting guns to the law-abiding citizens.

I don't think that you guys realize that fewer means fewer. Yeah, there will be some black market guns, but if you have fewer semi- automatics then it will be harder for crazies to get a semi-automatic. it's basic trickle down, right? If there are less in the mainstream pool then that trickles down to the crazy pool.

MommyLiberty5013 · December 2012

CoffeeBeen:
MommyLiberty5013:
GeraldoRivera:
snp605:

I find it interesting though of the countries with fewest mass gun killings, several of them have WAY more lenient gun laws than we do. In particular, it is estimated that in Switzerland there are at least 420,000 ASSAULT rifles owned by private citizens for a population of around 8 million. Sweden's gun laws are very generous. Italy's gun laws are fairly relaxed as are Ireland's (which has a very high rate of gun ownership) relatively speaking with consideration that in some countries guns are completely banned. Meanwhile you have countries like East Timor and most African countries which have laws making gun ownership 100% illegal yet have large roving bands of illegal militias committing all sorts of horrible gun atrocities pretty much unchecked. These atrocities are just as bad if not worse than the mass killings mentioned here. Maybe more so because it happens so frequently that it doesn't get reported on like it does over here so there are no memorials and cries for stricter gun laws or victim's compensation funds.

I believe the issues that cause the gun violence stem far more often from poverty, classism and the big black hole that is our mental health system. One of the big differences between a place like here and Africa is that you can earn enough money to buy a gun if you are a whack job and thus go shoot your boss and 15 co-workers. Over there your opportunity is to join a warlord or become one to get access to the ability to act out your sick fantasies. You take guns away here and the whackjobs will then bomb or poison people because you haven't gone to the root of the issue.

Your first sentence is just not true. Italy, Ireland, Sweden, even Switzerland all have gun laws that are FAR more restrictive than here. Switzerland (which has by far the loosest gun laws in Western Europe), for example, you must have a permit to carry weapons in public, and you must pass an exam in order to get such a permit (plus state a legitimate reason for wanting a carry permit, not just 'i want one'). And this permit is only for one specific type of firearm that's on the permit and it's only good for five years. You have to have a permit just to buy a gun, and you're only allowed to buy 3 guns with that permit.
In the US, it's a joke to get a carry permit in many states (you just apply and if you aren't a felon or on record as mentally ill, you get it automatically), and the permit lets you carry basically any gun you want. Anybody without a record can go into a gun store and buy as many guns as they want, no permit required.
Our violence issues do stem from the issues you state, I completely agree. But I do not agree that guns are irrelevant. It's a hell of a lot easier for a mentally disturbed person to kill lots of people with a gun than with a knife or baseball bat. And it's a lot easier for a criminal to commit violent crimes with a gun as well. The more guns there are, the more gun crimes you will have. You'll never eliminate them, as I said, but you can drastically reduce them.
We just choose not to do so as a society.
Just one problem, the mentally disturbed and criminals don't come upon their guns as law abiding citizens do...stricter gun laws won't prevent a crazy person from accessing the weapons they want. If this is your case then what we need isn't stricter gun laws - it's stricter laws limiting or eliminating the Black Market for firearms. All you'd be doing otherwise is limiting guns to the law-abiding citizens.
I don't think that you guys realize that fewer means fewer. Yeah, there will be some black market guns, but if you have fewer semi- automatics then it will be harder for crazies to get a semi-automatic. it's basic trickle down, right? If there are less in the mainstream pool then that trickles down to the crazy pool.

And, the crazy pool is where the guns would stay...trickle down, but not trickle up. The crazies would have them and the legit citizens wouldn't. Yes. This makes sense. Ick!

GeraldoRivera · December 2012

MommyLiberty5013:
GeraldoRivera:
snp605:

I find it interesting though of the countries with fewest mass gun killings, several of them have WAY more lenient gun laws than we do. In particular, it is estimated that in Switzerland there are at least 420,000 ASSAULT rifles owned by private citizens for a population of around 8 million. Sweden's gun laws are very generous. Italy's gun laws are fairly relaxed as are Ireland's (which has a very high rate of gun ownership) relatively speaking with consideration that in some countries guns are completely banned. Meanwhile you have countries like East Timor and most African countries which have laws making gun ownership 100% illegal yet have large roving bands of illegal militias committing all sorts of horrible gun atrocities pretty much unchecked. These atrocities are just as bad if not worse than the mass killings mentioned here. Maybe more so because it happens so frequently that it doesn't get reported on like it does over here so there are no memorials and cries for stricter gun laws or victim's compensation funds.

I believe the issues that cause the gun violence stem far more often from poverty, classism and the big black hole that is our mental health system. One of the big differences between a place like here and Africa is that you can earn enough money to buy a gun if you are a whack job and thus go shoot your boss and 15 co-workers. Over there your opportunity is to join a warlord or become one to get access to the ability to act out your sick fantasies. You take guns away here and the whackjobs will then bomb or poison people because you haven't gone to the root of the issue.

Your first sentence is just not true. Italy, Ireland, Sweden, even Switzerland all have gun laws that are FAR more restrictive than here. Switzerland (which has by far the loosest gun laws in Western Europe), for example, you must have a permit to carry weapons in public, and you must pass an exam in order to get such a permit (plus state a legitimate reason for wanting a carry permit, not just 'i want one'). And this permit is only for one specific type of firearm that's on the permit and it's only good for five years. You have to have a permit just to buy a gun, and you're only allowed to buy 3 guns with that permit.
In the US, it's a joke to get a carry permit in many states (you just apply and if you aren't a felon or on record as mentally ill, you get it automatically), and the permit lets you carry basically any gun you want. Anybody without a record can go into a gun store and buy as many guns as they want, no permit required.
Our violence issues do stem from the issues you state, I completely agree. But I do not agree that guns are irrelevant. It's a hell of a lot easier for a mentally disturbed person to kill lots of people with a gun than with a knife or baseball bat. And it's a lot easier for a criminal to commit violent crimes with a gun as well. The more guns there are, the more gun crimes you will have. You'll never eliminate them, as I said, but you can drastically reduce them.
We just choose not to do so as a society.
Just one problem, the mentally disturbed and criminals don't come upon their guns as law abiding citizens do...stricter gun laws won't prevent a crazy person from accessing the weapons they want. If this is your case then what we need isn't stricter gun laws - it's stricter laws limiting or eliminating the Black Market for firearms. All you'd be doing otherwise is limiting guns to the law-abiding citizens.

Did you even read my post? Or do you believe that other countries don't have criminals and mentally disturbed people, only the USA?

CoffeeBeen · December 2012

MommyLiberty5013:
CoffeeBeen:
MommyLiberty5013:
GeraldoRivera:
snp605:

I find it interesting though of the countries with fewest mass gun killings, several of them have WAY more lenient gun laws than we do. In particular, it is estimated that in Switzerland there are at least 420,000 ASSAULT rifles owned by private citizens for a population of around 8 million. Sweden's gun laws are very generous. Italy's gun laws are fairly relaxed as are Ireland's (which has a very high rate of gun ownership) relatively speaking with consideration that in some countries guns are completely banned. Meanwhile you have countries like East Timor and most African countries which have laws making gun ownership 100% illegal yet have large roving bands of illegal militias committing all sorts of horrible gun atrocities pretty much unchecked. These atrocities are just as bad if not worse than the mass killings mentioned here. Maybe more so because it happens so frequently that it doesn't get reported on like it does over here so there are no memorials and cries for stricter gun laws or victim's compensation funds.

I believe the issues that cause the gun violence stem far more often from poverty, classism and the big black hole that is our mental health system. One of the big differences between a place like here and Africa is that you can earn enough money to buy a gun if you are a whack job and thus go shoot your boss and 15 co-workers. Over there your opportunity is to join a warlord or become one to get access to the ability to act out your sick fantasies. You take guns away here and the whackjobs will then bomb or poison people because you haven't gone to the root of the issue.

Your first sentence is just not true. Italy, Ireland, Sweden, even Switzerland all have gun laws that are FAR more restrictive than here. Switzerland (which has by far the loosest gun laws in Western Europe), for example, you must have a permit to carry weapons in public, and you must pass an exam in order to get such a permit (plus state a legitimate reason for wanting a carry permit, not just 'i want one'). And this permit is only for one specific type of firearm that's on the permit and it's only good for five years. You have to have a permit just to buy a gun, and you're only allowed to buy 3 guns with that permit.
In the US, it's a joke to get a carry permit in many states (you just apply and if you aren't a felon or on record as mentally ill, you get it automatically), and the permit lets you carry basically any gun you want. Anybody without a record can go into a gun store and buy as many guns as they want, no permit required.
Our violence issues do stem from the issues you state, I completely agree. But I do not agree that guns are irrelevant. It's a hell of a lot easier for a mentally disturbed person to kill lots of people with a gun than with a knife or baseball bat. And it's a lot easier for a criminal to commit violent crimes with a gun as well. The more guns there are, the more gun crimes you will have. You'll never eliminate them, as I said, but you can drastically reduce them.
We just choose not to do so as a society.
Just one problem, the mentally disturbed and criminals don't come upon their guns as law abiding citizens do...stricter gun laws won't prevent a crazy person from accessing the weapons they want. If this is your case then what we need isn't stricter gun laws - it's stricter laws limiting or eliminating the Black Market for firearms. All you'd be doing otherwise is limiting guns to the law-abiding citizens.
I don't think that you guys realize that fewer means fewer. Yeah, there will be some black market guns, but if you have fewer semi- automatics then it will be harder for crazies to get a semi-automatic. it's basic trickle down, right? If there are less in the mainstream pool then that trickles down to the crazy pool.
And, the crazy pool is where the guns would stay...trickle down, but not trickle up. The crazies would have them and the legit citizens wouldn't. Yes. This makes sense.

Really? You think that about guns, but when it comes to the economy money magically distributes to all. Confused

2nd Amendment

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