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Severe Problems with In Laws
Ever since I met my wife, I have had huge problems with her parents. The father drinks excessively to say the least, goes on frequent racist rants, and is critical of everything we do. The mother is smiliar but to a lesser degree. I have always felts intensely uncomfortable being around them. I tried to be the better person and tried to look past these things until it blew up.
For Christmas, my wife and decided on 5 days with them. They were very angry and told us to not come at all because it was not long enough. So we had a phone conversation to talk things through and it went ugly very quickly.
Only dabbling on the Christmas rejection, they immediately went into a rant of insults/criticism against me.
They accused me of several things: I came intoxicated to their house on 3 occasions (not true but interesting as they are very heavy drinkers), I create conflict, I make everyone feel uncomfortable and I am not spirtual/religious enough for them. It only became more contentious as I started defending myself. For each instance above, I asked for examples and there was complete silence. It kind of went downhill from there. They were adamant that it was "our" problems when in reality the only conflict has been their constant involement and interfering.
My wife and I have been going to counseling and I think we are on the right track. Since then, they more or less ignore me for presents and cards and never refer to me. They have also started using her maiden name (which she freely chose to change) for packages.
Now that we are past the urgent stage, our counseling is not for a while. My wife is incredibly close to her parents. I have severe anxiety about seeing/talking to them again. Any advise on what to think/do in the interim?
Re: Severe Problems with In Laws
Just for the fact he's got an alcohol problem, you and the wife need to end contact with his dad.
Why did the 2 of you spend 5 days with them, if they are so toxic and horrible?
And why are you not livid that your wife does not have your back? They insult you and she sat there and did nothing? Not a word in your defense?
Here's where it's a wife problem, not an inlaw problem.
Cut them both off. Today. Without hesitation. And tell them why you and your wife will no longer be speaking with them or be in touch with them.
Then give your wife a piece of your mind in regard to how she did not bother to come to your defense.
Make sure you mention this in counseling: you got torn to shreds by her parents and your wife did not stand up for you. For this fact alone, you and she need counseling badly.
You need a new counselor:
My wife and I have been going to counseling and I think we are on the right track. Since then, they more or less ignore me for presents and cards and never refer to me. They have also started using her maiden name (which she freely chose to change) for packages.
Uh huh...on the right track; I noticed that she did not pick up the phone and very pointedly correct her parents "I am Mary Smith, NOT 'Mary Jones!'" She killed 2 birds with one stone: enabled them AND did not stand up for you...yet again.
WHYYYY are you so passive about this????
You are not on the right track. Not at all. She isn't standing up for you. She's letting them treat you like dirt.
Al Anon for the both of you -- and for her, ACA. Adult Children of Alcoholics will be of aid to her, along with Al Anon. .
When you met her parents and you you found out how horrible her parents were, you should have found yourself another girlfriend. Who needs people like these? And who needs to be insulted? and who needs a girlfriend who can't and won't have your back?
Since her parents don't like you and have obviously disrespected you, you have no reason to see and talk to them. They are her parents. Let her deal with them. If she still wants contact with them, then let her do what she needs to do. However, you really don't owe them anything. Having in laws who make your life miserable is nothing new. How much you are willing to put up with it is up to you.
Your wife really needs to stand up for you and herself. They send things with her maiden name, she should return to sender with "no one by this name at this address." They start in on you on a phone call she should hang up the phone and tell them why.
The only way to really get them to stop a tirade against you is by your wife putting a stop to it. Until she shows them it's unacceptable to her they will keep doing it.
Just to preface everything, I have been following my counselors orders pretty closely. Its just such a long time until the next session. (We live in a very rural town with only one clinic).
I have told her that they are toxic and I don't want anything to do with them but she is so attached -- its hard to describe. I only agree for her sake. When I personally pared it down to 5 days -- they became balistic towards me.
Yes I was very angry that she did not defend me. That is ongoing issue in counseling.
Definitely about the package -- that was brought up at counseling. Admittedly it was merely understood but no further action was taken.
I'll disagree with the last part with the mere fact that during dating I intentionally made it out to not spend too much time with them. Only as we got close to the wedding did things start to deteriorate rapidly.
I understand what you are saying and I thank you.
I will be honest with you, if she doesn't figure this out I don't see your marriage lasting. All this anger and fighting between the two of you isn't good for a marriage. The fact you are in counseling to deal with her parents and she isn't standing up for her marriage doesn't look good for the future.
You need to think carefully before you have children with her. Having kids brings a new level of crazy out in toxic people, trust me. Since they are alcoholics and drink, no way would I allow my children around that or them. The fact that they talk so awful to you, don't think for one second they won't talk to your kids that way. It's your life, but having children is a game changer in a lot of ways. Don't do it until she is ready to stand up to them.
Thank you for the response. Right now there is no talking with parents on the phone. The counselor is great but doesnt get into specifics (wants to guide us to make them ourselves). I guess that is my quandry -- the strategy going forward.
She's attached?
Holy crow. She's not too fussy with what she wants in a set of parents is she.
And "merely understood"??? The insult was as outstanding as Mount Shasta! Her parents insulted you --- that means she is insulted TOO, since you and she are a couple.
So it was merely understood yet she didn't pick up the phone and give them hell for what they did --- or as a pp said, return the package and mark it "no party by that name lives here."
You should have said goodbye the second you saw what her parents were. Why do you want to let yourself in for insults, lies and maltreatment?
The bottom line: if she won't disintegrate the apron strings and start being a team with you, your marriage doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
The vow is "forsaking all others." Did she even assimilate that much when she was with you taking her vows?
This nonsense will go on even if she shows up alone. They'll keep up the bullshit and she won't do anything about it.
She's not very mature and wow, is this ever a lack of character. By not standing up for you she is telling her parents "Go ahead and do what you want to epco33 -- it's fine by me and I won't interfere."
She's got to start standing up for you. And as i said, AlAnon (and ACA for her) is a must --- she's enabling their behavior and you can bet she enables her father's drinking.
Thank you and everyone else's response. I totally agree that if she is by herself -- it won't stop. I thought perhaps far in the future I would come along but stay at a hotel while she was having dinner. She would come back to the hotel each night.
I'm a worrier by nature and am stressing about this. I really don't want to meet them any time soon and I don't want her to see them unless I'm "around." I guess that is critical part getting her to know I don't really want to ever see them again.
I had a distantly related issue with some of my fiance's friends not respecting me, or our relationship, early on. As far as I'm concerned, if he isn't going to stand up to people about our relationship, or for me, EVERY TIME, I can't date/marry him. If he lets people make rude comments about me, it's over. I fully demanded that he openly tell people that behavior like that wasn't OK, and cut contact if it continued. Early on we disagreed about what was and wasn't the line for respecting me/relationship. We have been together long enough to have a pretty clear line, and open communication if I'm feeling disprespected. I don't abuse this to be petty and jealous, but to me it's common sense that if he wants to marry me he should expect people to treat me well.
Part of our friction over this is his threshold for 'disrespect' vs. mine. I saw some of his old friends as toxic hurtful people and said so (to him in private, with examples). But it's not my place to dictate where he draws that line for himself. I DO get to dictate where that line will be for me. It sounds like your wife was getting walked over by her parents for a LONG time, and that's their basic relationship mode. They manipulate her with emotions and hurt her and act toxic (possibly through alcoholic behavior), and she feels co-dependent or indebted or something to them and tolerates it. You knew this was a pattern before you married her. You can bring it up in therapy till your face turns blue but SHE has to decide if she wants to stand up to her parents for herself. YOU get to decide where your line of respect is. They have clearly run well beyond it and to protect yourself the only sane action is to cut contact 100%.
When you talk to your wife about this stuff is the tone more like "your parents are pricks and I'm angry" vs. "your parents are hurting me and I'm additionally hurt that you don't want to protect me"? Do you phrase your concern for her as "I see that you are hurt when your parents do X, but you keep doing it. Do you see this pattern? Do you want this to continue if we have kids?" The way you phrase this stuff impacts the other person's response and willingness to listen. Having a good therapist is also key!
I would be very concerned about involving those people in children's lives unless DRASTIC changes are made in terms of respecting boundaries, and if there's really an alcohol problem, seeking help for that. You can't decide their alcoholics because you disagree with their drinking, but you can set the boundaries for yourself and your family. Maybe no contact with their daughter and future grandchildren will shock them into wanting to grow and change.
The point is this: your relationship is in trouble because she can't and won't stand up to her parents. On the off chance, is this perhaps a cultural issue? if it is, you've got 1000 times the problem.
Is she religious or spiritual?
Maybe she'd listen to her clergyperson. Any cleric worth his or her salt will tell you that once you marry, you and your spouse are now the family: one new unit -- and that the vow is "forsaking all others." That means you put your spouse first, no questions asked.
Maybe she will listen to a third party that's neutral --- who can more or less give her a wake up call as to what's happening because she won't stand up for you and cut these people off for good. Is there a good chance she'll listen to that person?
Don't bring kids into this relationship. If you and she are thinking of starting a family soon, don't. You've got a very large problem to resolve and factor in that your IL's behavior is not something that a child should be exposed to: your FIL is a drunk and a racist, to boot.
I dont think it is cultural or religious. As a couple, we have a very hands off aproach to reiligion. Its there but for us to be in a physical church, rarely happens. I sense she feels guilty because the father constantly asks about religion. The father has a very strict, literal interpretation of the bible. This creates a lot of conflict.
We talked today about the incident in which they made horrible accusations but had no proof. My wife talked to them but still as a mediator (not really my champion). At best, they said that I wasn't sloppy but just "not all there." As for the more important issues of uncomfortable, conflict, spirtuality, they refused to address it. That part hurt me the most.
Counseling is coming up (10-14 days) but I will definitely consider going to a larger city for help. Its a very difficult process especially with how to get through the weekend.
I guess when it gets down to it, I have severe anxiety about seeing them again. The thought that keeps going in my mind, is do they really think that about me? If I say/do this, will they think this...
I'm ready for a clean break but at some point (definitely not planning now) we would like to start a family. I have nightmares on what they will say or do in addition to the current situations without children.
We are pretty tense right now and its difficult to know what do to move forward in the iterim.
Then that's a sure fire signal that the visits with them -- visits of any length -- and contact with them must end now.
We all know what a high stress atmosphere can do to people and what it can do to one's health. And besides, who wants to be insulted, walked on, sh!t upon, treated like dirt and get nothing but disregard along with being shown zero kindness?
The only thing to do:
Cut them off right now -- and your wife needs to be 100% with you on doing this.
Considering what a couple of nutcases they are, be forewarned that it won't be pretty. I wouldn't put it past these 2 to come to your home and disturb you and do what they "have to do" on their end.
In which case it could get pretty dicey. If this means a restraining order, by all means get one.
I am not saying that they will flip their lids and take liberties -- but be prepared. Knowing these 2, anything can happen.
I dont think it is cultural or religious. As a couple, we have a very hands off aproach to reiligion. Its there but for us to be in a physical church, rarely happens. I sense she feels guilty because the father constantly asks about religion. The father has a very strict, literal interpretation of the bible. This creates a lot of conflict.
What I meant was does she come from another country or another culture --- some parents of another culture can be downright obstinate and the kids more or less bend to their whims and do anything the parents want. The kids take a backseat more or less, to their parents.
being he's a fundamentalist, wow, I might say that this *could* be a cultural issue. Or at best it's a religious issue.... fat lot of good all that Bible learning does for him; did he ever actually read the part of the Bible where it says "love one another"??? How about "Judge not lest ye be judged"??? "WWJD" -- does that sound even very vaguely familiar to your nasty drunken FIL????
We talked today about the incident in which they made horrible accusations but had no proof. My wife talked to them but still as a mediator (not really my champion).
Not really your champion.
Buddy, put yourself first. How much more of this bullshit and out and out lack of respect are you going to put up with from your wife???
At best, they said that I wasn't sloppy but just "not all there." As for the more important issues of uncomfortable, conflict, spirtuality, they refused to address it. That part hurt me the most.
How they view it: We are right and case closed. You can't get through to 2 brick walls.
Counseling is coming up (10-14 days) but I will definitely consider going to a larger city for help. Its a very difficult process especially with how to get through the weekend.
What I suggest: you can also see another counselor on your own, in addition to the joint counseling. What you've got there is a very dysfunctional marriage dynamic...the dynamic that is normal is as existent as Shangrila and Utopia.There is already a rift between you and your wife --- and for your sake, make sure this is resolved to your satisfaction before these 2 pigs destroy what is left of your self esteem. Put yourself first.
I have a book to recommend.
http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901
Even if they aren't diagnosed with Borderline Personality, the focus of the book is on learning to set healthy boundaries with crazy, unpredictable, irrational people. That's you right now! Those boundaries sound like they should be NO CONTACT right now because you are expressing so much anxiety about it.
She's acting childishly.
Do you need this, really and truly?
Love is grand and great --- but as you see, it cannot and will not conquer all.
She is telling you she has no plans on being a team with you. How nice of her to tell you flat out and straight away.
You have been married for what, a year and a half? You've spoken to her, she is going to counseling (I doubt it is willingly and that is 10000% of the battle won if she was a willing and motivated party, but judging from her behavior, looks like she went to appease you; that's my guess) but she isn't doing what she needs to do: be a team with you.
It's every man for himself. Please do the right thing for yourself.
As a last ditch effort you can tell her "if you don't pick up that phone right now and tell them to buzz off, that'll be curtains for our marriage" and stand behind your words but if you ask me, what you say won't work. She probably won't give a hang.
I hear you. I asked her to no longer be a mediator and instead my champion -- she struggled with that.
I feel we are a great couple without her parents -- no fights. Then they come and everything falls apart. This is the hardest part: I know we can be a great couple without her parents but they never leave and instead we're not.
I told her if she left the room, she was leaving our marriage: she left the room claiming that we discussed everything and there was no point.
Sorry, but you are NOT a great couple.
If you were a truly great couple, you'd have each other's backs and the both of you would be a formidable and undefeatable team.
Her parents would NOT be coming between you, period.
Tell her you're "very disappointed"???
NOT strong enough of a wording.
You need to stand up for yourself -- and for your marriage -- and give her hell.
No sugar coating it, no dancing around, no lollygagging: you need to tell it how it is.
She needs to be told to get her *** together to grow up and start being YOUR WIFE and a partner with you and to hell with her parent's reaction...and to hell with them, period.
I don't see any other way out for this marriage to even make it. Give serious thought to saying goodbye to this little girl -- that's what she is since she's not grown up enough to take your side in this.
Stop being a martyr and give her hell.
I agree. I really dont know where we are. I've tried to be "clever" and nothing has worked.
I would like least one last try though. Without her parents, we are perfect. That is the most upsetting part. Without them, we would have the perfect relationship. With everything happening, I don't even know what to say....
This is an unspoken agreement: she is supposed to be a team with you, no questions asked -- and really, she sits there and lets all this go down? What kind of a normal human being lets anybody be maltreated?? This is just plain wrong.
I would like least one last try though. Without her parents, we are perfect. That is the most upsetting part. Without them, we would have the perfect relationship. With everything happening, I don't even know what to say....
You don't get it.
I said it before and I'll say it again: you are NOT -- repeat, not -- NOT a good couple. And no you are not PERFECT! She's got no respect for you, she doesn't care about you and she can't stand up for you. This is not somebody who "Gets it" that your spouse is now YOUR family.
You are not a good couple by virtue of the fact that she isn't your wife in every word of the definition. She lets her parents chew you to a bloody shred? How is that part of a "perfect couple"?
You're in denial over a great deal of this shot-to-hell couplehood you have with her. Your replies are full of "I am disappointed" and "she doesn't understand" -- she's not a full grown adult and she has no respect for you.
And she has to be a little nutso herself being that she comes from such a horrid and abnormal home -- and she's immature just for the fact of the matter she's a daughter of an alcoholic. Most sons and daughters of drunks usually are.
I kind of feel like a ultimatum is needed at this point. She is having a very difficult time understanding everything.
I said it above: you tell her either she picks up that phone and gives them hell and kindly informs these two shitheads that what hurts you hurts her and therefore, she and you will not have any more contact with them starting here and now....or you will hit the road.And be prepared, like I said, to stand behind your words. The second she doesn't get to that phone, you get to packing and getting out of there; I'm serious.
You are married a year and a half. You were engaged a year and let's say for argument's sake you were dating for a year before you proposed. This is THREE AND A HALF YEARS of being PUT LAST!!!
Want to go for three and a half years, plus one more day, effective immediately as in starting right now ---and other days to come????
Then by all means, stay with her!
If you care about yourself and your self esteem --- and you've got a problem with yours, being you let this silly little girl walk all over you (yep, by fact of the matter that she lets her parents treat you like crap) -- get out now. File and don't look back.
Alternatively you could see anattorney on your own, get your finances and other ducks in a row and when that's completed, file. You don't even have to tell her you are leaving; just file -- and after you've filed, go home after she's gone to work for the day, pack up and go. Let her figure out the rest.