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what meat to feed raw?
Trying to help the same sorry spaniel. 
it was recommended to feed raw since a lot of dog foods have additives that aggravate allergies and ear issues. We already do a grain free kibble but we are going to try this for a while to see if it helps. For veggies I have green beans squash potatoes to start, and I figure whatever veggies are seasonal he can have those too.
So what meat do we use? I know about the raw chicken necks, we gave him one today and he liked it... I bought a mix of hearts and gizzards because they are already bite size and they are lean. But what other meats are good? I don't want to feed him anything too rich but I know he needs a variety.
Suggestions?
Re: what meat to feed raw?
We use a combination of chicken backs/necks/wings, beef necks/marrow bones/ribs, and a bit of pork, lamb, rabbit, and venison when we can get good deals. Obviously some of that is going to be too rich, though I think rabbit and venison would be okay (just not always easy to come by). Oh, we also feed turkey necks sometimes, chopping them up into smaller pieces for now. Turkey is a pretty mild meat, like chicken.
For organs, hearts and gizzards are okay. Liver is usually needed for some essential health, and we use brains and kidney when we can get it, too. Those I would use in moderations (all organs, really), but they can be rich. We give organs once a week or so to help achieve balance over time.
For the veg, make sure there's some good leafy greens in there. You can also add some plain yogurt and an egg for some extra protein, calcium (if you leave the egg in the shell), and gut bacteria.
I'm probably forgetting a bunch of things. You're right that they do need variety. Some dogs do better with a lot of game meat, too, for example (the rabbit and venison etc). Chicken is our go-to staple food, though, because it's easy to digest.
I highly recommend you consult with a veterinary nutritionist to create a balance diet for your dog. It is very easy to not balance their diet if you don't know what you are doing.
I also can't urge you enough to actually cook the food. You can still make a homemade diet that is additive free and *may* help with allergies and is safer for YOU and your pet.
Also have you seen a dermatologist? If you are really having issues with allergies it may be worth your time.
Also have you tried a basic elimination diet? The most common allergies dogs have to food are beef and chicken. A grain free diet won't help a dog allergic to a meat protein if they still have that meat in their diet.
Again I can't urge you enough to 1 see a dermatologist so you can get a proper diagnosis 2 speak to a veterinary nutritionist to properly balance the diet.
1) It's typically COOKING meats that changes the shape of the protein molecules and results in the allergy to that protein. Feeding RAW is the most beneficial thing you can do for your dog/cat. Do you think they're able to cook their food in the wild? Nope! Wash everything well, and you've got no worries of bacterial contamination.
2) Check out PreyModelRaw.com. It is an INCREDIBLY helpful site for how to get started on feeding a raw diet. You can't just launch in willy nilly feeding whatever you like. There are specific ratios of nutrients/food types that should be fed (approximately 80% muscle meat, 10% organs, and 10% bone, though some dogs do need these ratios tweaked).
3) Start off feeding around 2% of your dogs ideal adult weight. This is the low end of the recommended daily amount, but you want to start low, with higher bone content, to help transition your pup and build up higher levels of digestive acids without causing lots of loose stools. After a few weeks, you can increase the amount of food you're feeding if it's not enough to maintain you dog's weight.
4) Start with chicken ONLY for a couple of weeks; it's the highest in bone content and easiest to digest. You can transition to something like turkey or pork after a couple of weeks, then start adding a novel protein source about every week or so, in small amounts.
5) Some dogs will still be allergic to a particular raw protein; introducing one new protein source at a time will give you a chance to see if your dog has an allergic reaction to it so you can know not to feed it in the future.
B/w 1/8: betas 17,345, progesterone 25.6
False false false.
This is why people are allergic to a specific food are allergic in any form. You just can't appreciate the raw meat protein allergic reactions in people because it is unhealthy and the danger of foodborne infection is great. Just as it is for dog.
I've done my homework on this and spoken to a LOT of people who've been feeding raw for YEARS. They see it over and over again: a dog allergic to, for example, chicken in a kibble (which they pinpointed as a chicken allergy through diet elimination/change), who then eats raw chicken with ZERO allergic reaction.
Cooking has been shown to change protein structures, just like cooking vegetables alters the availability of certain nutrients while enhancing availability of others. Heating any food source invariably alters some part of it.
People =/= dogs.
Foodborne infection doesn't happen in dogs because their digestive systems are radically shorter than ours. Bacteria does not have time to proliferate in their gut like it does in ours, hence foodborne illnesses that we'd suffer from don't occur in dogs (unless they're getting salmonella from contaminated kibble, which digests far slower than raw food does).
Dogs/cats living on the streets survive and thrive off raw prey every day. So how is the dog living at home any different?!
B/w 1/8: betas 17,345, progesterone 25.6
I feed prey model without veggies.
You can start with chicken, but necks, wings, and backs are too bony as the bulk of their diet. I often purchased whole chickens and cut them into quarters for my dogs. Keep in mind though, and the really cheap chicken is enhanced, and duke did not do well when that made up a large portion of his diet. Unenhanced chicken (albeit more expensive) was fine.
Since you're starting with chicken, I would stick with it for now. I feed about 10% organ, and a lot of meat wih some bone. I don't worry too mch about what percent bone they're getting, just make sure that they're popping just fine. Soft stools --> feed more bone, difficulty pooping --> feed less bone. Organs are stuff like liver, kidney, sweetbreads....gizzards and hearts are actually muscles, so I don't consider them organs.
Have you seen my monkey?
I have been feeding PMR for almost 3 years and it has only enhanced very aspect of my dog's health and appearance. Feeding raw is great for any pet, whether there are health problems or not. I agree that preymodelraw.com is a great resource and that is the site I used to learn the proper way to feed raw. It's not difficult, but you do want to make sure you're feeding a balanced diet.
Also, finding a veterinarian who is educated in raw feeding will help you should you want to go in and talk to someone in person about it. I believe that site has a list of raw-educated vets. Most vets do not take more than one or two semesters of Nutrition, so they agree with aggiebug's archaic view of feeding raw food. I'm guessing she's a second year vet student at TAMU and thus knows ALL the things about animal nutrition.
Oh my god, I love you! Hahaha.
Thank god I have a vet who at LEAST supports me feeding the cats a limited ingredient, grain-free food without trying to convince me they need grains!
Zoey's PMR diet has never come up, but at least I have other highly educated PMR feeders I can turn to.
B/w 1/8: betas 17,345, progesterone 25.6
1 I am not a 2nd year vet student.
2 I actually dislike the nutrition education I got in school. (although the perception that it's paid food by a food company is funny) I love nutrition and have done extensive research and my advice is based on evident based medicine.
3 the raw model is an archaic view. Based on opinion not based on medical evidence and research.
I have SEEN several cases of salmonella poisoning in dogs fed raw diets so yes it's a very real issue and a concern for the animal AND the people. Especially young children.
And while people do vary a lot from dogs and cats something are quite similar. Allergies among mammalian species is the same response. While the common allergies vary from species to species but the mechanisms are the same.
I cannot reiterate enough to discuss your homemade diet with a board certified veterinary nutritionist. It is MUCH easier to do it wrong and make an imbalanced diet with long term consequences. I think the opinion of a educated professional trumps opinions here.
The educated professionals at least two veterinary practices near me recommend a raw diet for cats and dogs.
And my pit bull is allergic to chicken in kibble, but eats raw chicken just fine.
Are they board certified veterinary nutritionists?
I am not asking OP to trust my opinion, one that follows the national veterinary organization, and scientific fact. I am asking them to talk to a board certified veterinary nutritionist to get help creating a balanced healthy diet for their pet.
Dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years. Kibble has been around for several decades. What the heck do you think they ate before?! No, their owners weren't all sitting around cooking for them. Their digestive systems haven't changed.
If young children are contracting salmonella from raw meat, it's because people don't clean properly, and that's regardless of whether they feed a pet raw or not. If someone doesn't know how to properly clean after handling raw meat, then of course they're going to make themselves sick.
B/w 1/8: betas 17,345, progesterone 25.6
Cats and dogs also hunted for their own food outdoors. The majority of them also mainly lived outside the house, and we all know nowadays that the lifespan of a pet is dramatically increased by keeping it indoors. I'd say that goes a long way toward a longer life, not just the convenient kibble option.
You're not the only person out there who's done her research on a diet before implementing it. I strongly believe in feeding raw, thanks to plenty of real-life evidence from others and based on all the reading I've done on it.
Are there funded trials done on raw diets?? No. You want to know why? Because no big commercial entity out there is going to make money off it, so why pay for the research? Duh!
B/w 1/8: betas 17,345, progesterone 25.6
Cat may hunt. But the domesticated dog, in general, hasn't been a hunter for a while. A dog that hunts doesn't make a good protector for the livestock. Their primary source of food has been grains and scraps for a very long time. So long in fact that there are only minimally related to those species and ancestors that do eat a primarily raw diet.
Also even *if* they did hunt there still received plenty of scraps and grains that we will would see problems associated with those foods if that was the cause.
And there is a recent paper that indicates a correlation to domestication being related to the early dogs feeding off the wheat fields and thus in close association with people. And there are papers that have shown improved health on a balanced kibble vs a raw diet.
But this is beyond the point, as again, I am not trying to prove anything to you. I know that is pointless. I want the OP to talk to a professional. A board certified nutritionist specifically since most veterinarians cannot formulate an appropriate diet. Even ones who like nutrition and put a lot of effort into understanding nutrition.
BFP 11.8.12 * EDD 7.17.13 * MC 12.20.12
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over!
Just gonna throw this out there....my DOG can hardly be compared the wild dogs and wolves in lifestyle and nutrition as many of the pro-raw feeders compare them to. My dog doesn't have to hunt, nor is he equipped to do so. He doesn't have the same nutritional needs of a wolf, or a wild dog, and he'll likely pass them all in age as well. Why? Because of the advancements in veterinary medicine, technology and nutrition
In their crates. Easy to clean. Most meals they scarf down without touching with their paws. If its something really messy like beef ribs, I rinse their paws.
Have you seen my monkey?
Raw fed dogs shed high quantities of salmonella, enterotoxic e. coli, and camphalobacter among other dangerous bacteria including the bacteria that causes the bubonic plague.
You can't clean to eliminate the risk of feeding raw, but just feeding them in their crate and wiping their paws is asking for it. *shudder*
You are seriously one of the most judgmental vets I've ever come across.
Right. I guess this is why after nearly 2 whole years of feeding raw, my DH and I have just been overwhelmed by all of the above-mentioned bacteria.
B/w 1/8: betas 17,345, progesterone 25.6
Haha you obviously don't know me then. Yes I am passionate about nutrition and nutrition education.
Everything I have said is truth backed by studies. I am glad you and your haven't experienced any of the negative consequences of feeding raw, just because you haven't doesn't mean they are a very real risk. I have and it's not pretty, hence me advocating heavily against it.
But again. I asked OP not to take my opinion over another internet stranger. I asked them to talk to a board certified veterinary nutritionist to find or formulate a diet that works for everyone.
You say that but then these ladies are also saying they've spoken/worked with experts who had followed other studies. Again, you are saying you are right and they are wrong.
I am saying science and experience has proven the risks of a raw diet. And the value of a balanced, cooked diet.
You can find sites and people to back any opinion you have. And a site promoting something like raw diet will rarely discuss the very real risks of such diet. It's like all the evidence you can now find that immunizations are not the reason small pox is gone and polio is on its way out the door. Yes it's there. But it doesn't mean it's the truth. It's there even in my profession. There was a girl going through school who believed surgery was animal cruelty. Period. No exceptions. (I don't know if she made it though because of course requirements but still). It doesn't make their stance correct.
And I am not saying the popular opinion is always the best either. In fact disagree with some widely held opinions in my profession.
There are no studies that validates the raw diet. There are theories and opinions and that is my point.
You should see the germs in dirt too. Guess what? I let my toddler play in dirt. *cue pearl clutching*. Neither dogs nor humans get sterilized after playing in parks. We just wash hands before sticking them in our mouths. With all the freaking food recalls (human and pet), whose to say what's safe anymore unless you're going to live in a bubble. No one in this house has had a GI infection while raw feeding. Though C did get one from drinking funky pond water once, but that was when she was kibble fed.
Have you seen my monkey?
Ha. I am not a germaphobe. Not even close. But the risk is that much higher with raw fed dogs that it's unwise not to. Do you eat undercooked meat? Or leftovers that are probably past their prime? Or do you leave raw chicken juices on the counter? Or prepare raw veggies and meats together?
Just as research has shown each and every one of those actions increases the risks of foodborne illness so had the research shown that raw diets increas the risk of foodborne illness in YOU and your pet. And thus my concern about it.
I walk on the wild side. I like steaks med rare and burgers med. I currently have raw chicken thawing on the countertop. And I totally prep raw meat and veggies together, but I also don't eat raw veggies. I do eat rice that's been in the fridge more than 2 day, bacillus cereus be damned.
Have you seen my monkey?
"If young children are contracting salmonella from raw meat, it's because people don't clean properly"
Sorry, this is just not true. Take a biology class and learn about bacteria. You can get salmonella from raw meat - especially chicken. End of story. Sorry, I can't tolerate uneducated opinon.