September 2009 Weddings
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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: How comfortable are you?
I did have a huge thing written out, but the Nest ate is 6 times....grrr
So about the debate at hand, I will say that stereotypes are bad when used against a specific group (race or age or religion, etc), but not when used for the purpose of making a point. No hate or intolerance was behind Ames comment so get over it.
It was using a stereotype that would bring a readily available image to the minds of her audience. I also first thought of Nat Geo. Not about the plight against Etiopian women's saggy breasts. In that regard, it would make EVERY single comedian derogatory and ignorant because at one point they have all used some sort of stereotypical material. We are all a bunch of educated women who can tell the difference between hate speech and a joke.
I disagree with your assumption on Trump's rationale. I think it is all about publicity and getting his name out there. Otherwise why would he be announcing whether or not to run for president on the season finale of The Apprentice? This is a publicity trick. People who pay attention play in, and encourage this type of behavior later on.
I'm just wondering how Obama's citizenship being questioned (for racial reasons or not) affects you. Because you are being questioned about who you are, because you are also partially African American?
I'm not brushing off Obama's achievement through complacency- I'm glad that he's President and that my nephew can look up to him as a role model when things will inevitably be tough for him. But, things are tough for everybody at some point. For you to question whether or not he matters to me is out of line.
I understand how difficult racial issues can be, but it isn't as much a majority/ minority thing as you make it out to be. The metro area where I live is majority minority populations. I worked with some of the most underserved of those populations achieving freedom and opportunity to have a future, against the odds. But those odds aren't all racial. Those odds include socioeconomic factors, absent parents, drugs, etc. I don't talk about how I still send clothes to one of my old clients who is locked up in UTAH of all ever loving places to send an urban, Muslim, African American teen because her parents can't afford them and the juvenile justice system will ship them off but not support them once they're there. Or the emails I get from my old mentees who talk about their babies (I have a 17 yr old who has 3 now) and how their WIC isn't going to hold them through the month and the need to skip school to pick up extra shifts at McDonald's and how I discourage it and send formula and gift cards and locations of the nearest Planned Parenthood for birth control. Because I don't do it for recognition, or because of their race or gender or anything of the sort. I do it because I am invested in giving them the best possible opportunities and having them make the most out of it.
So, in short, I'd rather do something rather than pay attention (which, if no one paid attention to Trump or the media decided they were going to straight up ignore his ignorant commentary and not cover it) and hope that is goes away. Doing anything else to me is a waste of time and effort because you're not going to change the minds of the crazies who believe things that are completely out there.
Donald Trump is an assh0le. He does lack intelligence, passion, common sense and decency- everything that the person in the video said he was (except for a Klansman and the fact that his towers will be built with the blood of slaves who died- that's probably taking it a bit far). I don't think Obama should have produced his long form birth certificate, I'd rather have him give a speech on our role in the ongoing crises Middle East and the recovery efforts of FEMA in Alabama. The video is absolutely right that he shouldn't have done anything to acknowledge or address it- it brought the argument into the forefront of national attention and validated the claims. It doesn't change anything with the crazies, just like getting worked up over it doesn't.
So, if you feel so strongly, go out and mentor kids. Teach them the value of doing thing like voting and the value of restraint when addressing some kinds of ignorance, like Donald Trump. And not the kids in your church (no offense, their parents probably care, and if they don't then they've already found community support)- go out into the neighborhoods where the lives of the kids are really in jeopardy, the ones whose parents aren't there and the ones who haven't seen anything of success from people who are just like they are.
In that way, you're more suited to do it than I am, because reverse racism goes the same way- the kids I work with can write me off and say that I put myself through college, got into law school and got a good job because I'm white. Now, this has absolutely nothing to do with what I did or did not do (there's clear historical [and Supreme Court] precedent for allowing affirmative action and race to be one of the factors in admission to schools, so if anything, my race worked against me), but it could happen, and it has happened to me. The way to overcome this is to show people I care about them as people and not about their race or their nationality or their criminal record or whatever.
The best thing I can do for the betterment of my society is to rise above this and treat people the way I want to be treated. The only way to change things is not to troll and create drama, but to encourage understanding and tolerance.
Stand up for something you believe in.
I disagree with your assumption on Trump's rationale. I think it is all about publicity and getting his name out there. Otherwise why would he be announcing whether or not to run for president on the season finale of The Apprentice? This is a publicity trick. People who pay attention play in, and encourage this type of behavior later on.
Publicity may be one reason, but the fact that he has money and wants attention and power, makes this also about race in regards to the things that he is doing about this birth certificate. Groupon is actually blocking ads of the Apprentice for this reason.
I choose to get worked up because it affects me. It will affect my children, it will affect Tre, if that makes a difference to you. That is worth the time to protest, to write letters to networks, and to get up in arms about.
Brushing it off as unimportant is complacency. It is wholly offensive and thick with racism. As ridiculous as the claims are, it is still relevant that he is being questioned.
I'm just wondering how Obama's citizenship being questioned (for racial reasons or not) affects you. Because you are being questioned about who you are, because you are also partially African American?
I know this might be hard for you to grasp, but when I walk down the street, or in a store I am fully aware of the inequalities of races. Whether it is seeing minorities waiting for the bus, that isn't downtown during 9-5 hours, or seeing young girls being followed around in stores. My life as a black person is affected by this. For us to be in a nation where the president is questioned about lying about him being an American, when no other president has faced such discriminatory questioning, is my problem. He can be qualified, intelligent, and black, and still have to show his papers. What kind of message does that give to people? What kind of message will little black kids see? That they can be the president, and still have to bow down to discrimination. It is shameful. My kid might face the same, I might face the same. I think it affects me quite clearly.
I'm not brushing off Obama's achievement through complacency- I'm glad that he's President and that my nephew can look up to him as a role model when things will inevitably be tough for him. But, things are tough for everybody at some point. For you to question whether or not he matters to me is out of line.
Aside from male thing, I have walked in the world that your nephew will. That is just how the world works. Things are particularly tough for minorities, which you seem to keep pushing aside when you post crap like this. It's tough for everyone, not really tough for white middle class Americans, and white upper class Americans. And not really in the same way.
I understand how difficult racial issues can be, but it isn't as much a majority/ minority thing as you make it out to be. The metro area where I live is majority minority populations. I worked with some of the most underserved of those populations achieving freedom and opportunity to have a future, against the odds. But those odds aren't all racial. Those odds include socioeconomic factors, absent parents, drugs, etc. I don't talk about how I still send clothes to one of my old clients who is locked up in UTAH of all ever loving places to send an urban, Muslim, African American teen because her parents can't afford them and the juvenile justice system will ship them off but not support them once they're there. Or the emails I get from my old mentees who talk about their babies (I have a 17 yr old who has 3 now) and how their WIC isn't going to hold them through the month and the need to skip school to pick up extra shifts at McDonald's and how I discourage it and send formula and gift cards and locations of the nearest Planned Parenthood for birth control. Because I don't do it for recognition, or because of their race or gender or anything of the sort. I do it because I am invested in giving them the best possible opportunities and having them make the most out of it.
It is a majority/minority thing as well as a racial thing and a socioeconomic thing. All of these combined put white people in a place of privilege. I?d look up Tim Wise about white privilege, he is much well versed than I am about it.
Normally the socioeconomic status, parental issues broken homes, drugs, all of that tends to be seeded in the world that minorities had in this country in comparison to white people. Does these things exclude white people as a whole, no. But they do lend to the disparities between minorities in comparison to white people.
All your giving and emails, and mentoring, and formula, all of that is also coming from a place of white privilege. You have the opportunity to do that, which is awesome. But people that you?re helping have likely lived in a state where the odds were set up against them.
So, in short, I'd rather do something rather than pay attention (which, if no one paid attention to Trump or the media decided they were going to straight up ignore his ignorant commentary and not cover it) and hope that is goes away. Doing anything else to me is a waste of time and effort because you're not going to change the minds of the crazies who believe things that are completely out there.
Someone had to fight against the crazies that thought segregation, slavery, Jim Crow was all okay. When it wasn?t. It isn?t a great easy fight. Clearly exhibited here as people can still use slurs even though it is clear that they?re hurtful and harmful. (yes Sarges, I call your statement out as ignorant as well.)
Donald Trump is an assh0le. He does lack intelligence, passion, common sense and decency- everything that the person in the video said he was (except for a Klansman and the fact that his towers will be built with the blood of slaves who died- that's probably taking it a bit far). I don't think Obama should have produced his long form birth certificate, I'd rather have him give a speech on our role in the ongoing crises Middle East and the recovery efforts of FEMA in Alabama. The video is absolutely right that he shouldn't have done anything to acknowledge or address it- it brought the argument into the forefront of national attention and validated the claims. It doesn't change anything with the crazies, just like getting worked up over it doesn't.
So, if you feel so strongly, go out and mentor kids. Teach them the value of doing thing like voting and the value of restraint when addressing some kinds of ignorance, like Donald Trump. And not the kids in your church (no offense, their parents probably care, and if they don't then they've already found community support)- go out into the neighborhoods where the lives of the kids are really in jeopardy, the ones whose parents aren't there and the ones who haven't seen anything of success from people who are just like they are.
I do mentor kids. Maybe not through an official program, but I still do. Our church is in a lower income area. You made a poor and bold assumption, and it was wrong. Mentoring the kids there and spending time with them is significant. You?re also wrong about the parents caring. A lot of the kids come to church with friends or with parents of other kids. Their parents don?t care, neither do their schools. I?m happy to be a part of exposure to them when I can, and offer up lessons in art, black history, literature, and other areas.
In that way, you're more suited to do it than I am, because reverse racism goes the same way- the kids I work with can write me off and say that I put myself through college, got into law school and got a good job because I'm white. Now, this has absolutely nothing to do with what I did or did not do (there's clear historical [and Supreme Court] precedent for allowing affirmative action and race to be one of the factors in admission to schools, so if anything, my race worked against me), but it could happen, and it has happened to me. The way to overcome this is to show people I care about them as people and not about their race or their nationality or their criminal record or whatever.
Reverse racism is real, but often due to the set-up of our society, white people are often not grouped together, nor treated poorly in major ways that minorities are. It is statistically proven that if you have darker skin, that you?re more likely to spend more time in prison. So, while white people are the number one users of drugs, blacks and minorities are the majority in prison.
Affirmative action did not make your race work against you. Minorities are set up for a race in which they?re laps behind white people, AA was enforced to help balance that. It will never harm a white person the way you?re alluding to. Even if there are cases in which it might seem that way, having a name like Mary will get you into a higher running for a job over someone like LaToya. Even if LaToya is more qualified than you.
Caring about these people as you say you do, also involves recognizing when there is such obvious racial injustice. Otherwise you?re just treating a problem, not trying to cure it.
The best thing I can do for the betterment of my society is to rise above this and treat people the way I want to be treated. The only way to change things is not to troll and create drama, but to encourage understanding and tolerance.
I hardly feel like calling out Ames for using a slur is trolling. Despite the fact that people are still unapologetic about it, it might have caused someone to see that type of thing should not be tolerated.
If she had said something about gay marriage, I?m sure this would not be such a big thing, and I wouldn?t be trolling. Considering it is race, and there isn?t much diversity here on this board, it is deemed as it is.
Neuner ? not all Ethiopians have saggy breasts. If you wear supportive undergarments, like I did since prior to puberty and development, doesn?t mean you can escape less that perky breasts. Moreover, just because an Ethiopian woman that Ames might have been referring to had saggy breasts, it doesn?t not automatically lend that that trait is undesirable to her tribe or culture.
Zuma Zoom
I myself come from a broken home. I have a mother who was disabled from birth, and a father who is a paraplegic as the result of an accident. I grew up extremely poor, often wondering where my next meal would come from. Before his accident, my father was fired from his job for being obese. At 16 I became the sole breadwinner in my household. We got evicted more times than I can count. I was molested as a child and raped as a teenager. I have always struggled with my weight and have dealt with hurtful comments and stares and criticism. I have dealt with bulimia. I have dealt with being ostracized from the church. College wasn't a possibility for me until I made it one. I pulled myself up from my bootstraps and made this life I was given work for me.
yes there are people out there who have it worse than me, and there are people who have it better. But to assume that anyone has had it easy just because they were born white? That's ignorant.
not all grandmas have saggy breasts either. Generalizations are just that. Generalized. Not all generalizations are discrimination.
FWIW, I think my grandma would be offended if I said her breasts were saggy. Just because someone gets offended doesn't make it discrimination either. Rude, insensitive, maybe. But not necessarily discrimination.
But Ames, don't you get it? Any other kind of discrimination is ok, as long as it isn't racist. Agism, that's ok. Discriminating against homosexuals? that's ok too. As long as it doesn't interfere with Smo's beliefs. Racism (maybe sexism) is the only thing in her world because they are the only things that affect her.
I used to think you were pretty cool Smo. Honestly. Then you came out against gay marriage. An how ANYONE who is so passionate against discrimiation can actively discriminate against another group of human beings is postively beyond me. You lost every ounce of credibility with me (and I have a feeling a lot of people) that day. You want to talk about hypocritical?! THAT is hypocritical.
I don't make bold or poor assumptions, I just call it as I see it too. You're only interested in helping people who believe the same things as you.
As far as affirmative action goes, there's a Supreme Court case (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=02-241) that lays out the way higher educational institutions weigh applicants, including a points system that allows people to get points for their race towards admission. How is that anything other than what I alluded to? That's like saying you need 75 points to get in, and I get 0 for being white and you get 5 for being of a minority race. How does that not help you or make anything equal in any way? 0=/=5. You claim you want equality but you don't want it when it is convenient for you to have some other practice. And then you want that. Hypocracy at its finest.
And, people can name their babies what they want. If someone chooses to name their child LaToya or Sh1thead (see Freakanomics for more), and that impacts their potential for jobs, etc. later, they should name their children other things. Your name is Stephanie, and does that make you any less attached to your culture than other people? No. So, if that's a serious concern for parents (or people as adults once they turn 18), then name your child something that isn't going to adversely affect them or change your name if your parents didn't have the forethought. Again, something that has nothing to do with race that you're making an argument about
My work with kids does not come from a place of white privilege and how dare you say so. My work with these kids rises out of experiences I had and an understanding that if one more thing in my life had gone the wrong way I'd have been stealing to feed my family too.
So, I worked hard and went to school because I know I didn't want my children to live that way, I knew I needed more education- and I went to law school. Again, working full time and interning while I went to college, studying on my own because I couldn't afford a prep class, overdrawing my account to keep myself in the running with the stupid system that you have to use for transcript and recommendation management. And then I went. Still without help.
I'll be paying back my educational debt for the better part of a lifetime but it is worth it because I know it is the best possible investment I could make in myself. That's why I think college is so important.
And, for the record, you don't walk around in a life like my nephew's no matter the color of his skin or the races of his parents. They're both tolerant individuals and they'll care for him and bring him up with love and understanding, and teach him to do the same. He's not going to use his race as a way to start arguments and act persecuted when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. He's already better than that a month old an infant. Seriously, don't ever say one word about him again, or you'll earn my true ire.
Stand up for something you believe in.
as has already been pointed out, almost everyone, everywhere has overcome some type of injustice or discrimination. discrimination is everywhere...IF you are looking for it. i am discriminated upon every single day because i am a woman. in fact, i was recently the focus of a federal investigation regarding the way i am treated because of my sex. the difference between myself and the others who have commented, and you Smo, is that we have overcome it. we dont go around looking for the injustice and discrimination. we dont let it define us and we dont have a chip on our shoulder about it. i dont think its fair for you to assume that you are the only person who knows what a difficult life is solely because of your race. i am willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 people treat you the way that they do not because of your race, but because you are a pretentious biitch.
you preach that you are so sensitive to others and that you would never say something offensive to offend even the smallest group of people, regardless of whether that particular demographic is on this board or not.
since i looove to point out how much of a hypocrite you are, and im not passive aggressive about it as we all know...lets discuss how you came onto the board making a joke about how you are fearful that the name you and Anwar have chosen for your unborn, unconceived, and currently unwanted child might become popular. that is a serious slap in the face to some women of this board. there are women on here who cant have babies, who desperately want a child, or have lost children that they have conceived. but you have the balls to boo-hoo over the fact that you might not get the name you want for your child. that to me, is ridiculously insensitive and if i were one of the women on this board who was having trouble TTC, you would have lot all credibility with me that day.
your problems are miniscule compared to others. when you come to realize that i guarentee your life will be better.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Stees. I was trying to find a nice way to say all this but you did it for me.
SMo- As another/fellow minority on this board, I want to let you know that you speak for yourself when it comes to these topics. And quite honestly, the things you like to preach about when it comes to race and discrimination, I find more offensive than original comment. I feel like you like to find some negative meaning behind every comment about race... not every comment about the color of one's skin, nationality, etc. has bad intentions. And that's the difference. Racism, to me, is when someone means intentional harm.... not when someone is non-chalantly/jokingly is comparing their boobies to those in Africa or in the Amazon.
Maybe I'm blind to it, but I seriously can't say that I have been adversely treated because the color of my skin. I'm really trying hard to recall situations when the color of my skin could have been used against me and I can't. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and conclude that your (general population, not you directly) life and situations are what you make of it. If you choose to be offended by every single "racist" comment, then you're not improving the cause. I'm pretty sure even MLK, Jr and Obama even laughed at a black joke and didn't feel offended by it.
Bottom line, lighten the fvck up.
My Acme Box last update 3/28/11
I don't see where Smo ever said this was a personal attack on her.
Did she take it personally? Yes.
So did I because it was a HORRIBLE comment.
People have the right to be affected by discriminatory statements.
I have pointed out this point a million times in the past.
This board is fine with people talking down, or calling out, to CERTAIN people but not the 'bosses' (which is psychologically interesting but in reality, utterly ridiculous).So sad.
I would like to point out I actually defended Smo, not the other way around. And, there have been plenty of times where Smo has disagreed with me and vice versa. (For example, I completely support gay marriage).
The bottom line is: The comment by Ames was horrible and should have been immediately deleted and apologized for. And, the fact that only Smo and myself have voiced objections to it is so disheartening about the 'progress' we've made as human beings. :-(
My problem has nothing to do with the fact that you're from the South (although if the shoe fits, wear it.....).
I don't THINK you're a racist because you're from the South, I KNOW you're a racist because of what you actually SAY/DO.
So don't blame your region's history of racial intolerance, blame your own little mind.
Smo is probably grouping you in with those racist southern americans because you ACT like those racist southern individuals.
You make racist comments = you are a racist.
You say you're educated yet you can't wrap your head around this simple concept.
As usual, Neuner is wrong, even in her sarcasm.
I definitely don't agree with Smo re: homosexuality. Obviously, being religious probably influences her beliefs on that but on this:
She's right.
How can a social worker seriously not see anything wrong with Ames' comment? And, you say I'm the crock? HA
updated 10.03.12
Haha... Is this seriously how you gauge "progress"???
Statements like that don't mark progression or even regression. I think real progress is when everyone can just brush off a comment like Ames and realize that it's not true for every AND that she meant NO HARM in her comment. Whether or not Ethiopian women's saggy breasts are negative or positive thing is subjective. You can't speak for them. Seriously, get the fvck over yourself and your psychological bullsh!t.
I can understand making a big deal about this crap if she was being negative about it... but she CLEARLY was not... as you and SMo both agree on. Let it go!
My Acme Box last update 3/28/11
Well, I guess I'm a racist, too. Go figure.
My Acme Box last update 3/28/11
The only reason the two of you have voiced your "objections" is because only the two of you have the stick of righteousness shoved so far up your @sses that you can't see the forest for the fvckin' trees.
But I'm sure Smo is honored to have crazycakes like you on her side to help dig her hole deeper, but I'm sure she doesn't need The Great MB to tell her that! *thumbs up*
updated 10.03.12
?? Everyone's a little bit racist sometimessssss~??
updated 10.03.12
Natalie, I love you. That's all.
Stand up for something you believe in.
Boy, this thread certainly spiraled out of control, huh?
There are other ways to handle this. A few months ago, I made a joke about the Catholic church in a post, and Riss posted a response about how she was offended by what I said. I didn't delete the comment, but posted an apology to her, explaining the basis for my comment and my experience, and explaining that I meant no harm to her, and I also emailed her offboard to reiterate.
While everyone knew my comment was meant as a joke, that didn't really matter.
We all have choices. Whether or not you agree with Smo, it doesn't matter. Read her initial post again: what she was upset about was the comment. She didn't attack anyone in that post, and she had as much right to comment on that word choice as Jill did to express outrage over the word "broad" (yeah yeah, I am using that as an example...I think it fits the situation). Someone (or everyone) else made it personal.
And for the record, when I first read Ames' reply, I raised my eyebrows at that word and thought "really?" Not in a "That was racist!" way but more a "Huh...could've picked another word" way. I knew Ames meant no harm by it, nor did I think she was a racist. It was just a joke that not everyone appreciated. Like my shot at the Catholic church.
Aren't we all adults here? Seriously.
Not by Smo, she didn't. From page 2:
Im sorry I missed where I said Smo called her racist. Oh thats because I didnt.
But she did call her statements ignorant and she did attribute it to the racism of the south.
I stand corrected, but I never said that you said she did. I was just pointing out that Smo didn't launch a personal attack on Ames. Nor did Ames launch one on Smo, from what I can tell. It's everyone else who seems to have made it personal, and I don't think Smo deserved that.
Yup - that's the problem. Adults not behaving as such. Like you said - this could have been an non-event if it people were able to swallow their pride for just a friggin second and admit that they could have behaved/spoken better. SMo could have responded in a less harsh way - Ames could have said "Ya know, I didn't mean any harm, but I probably should have used a different word" - and this would have been over in an instant. Instead, droves of people have to come in and wage war.
The amount of hatred spewed in this post is disgusting and shameful. And I don't care what side of the argument you're on, there's no need to gang up on someone like that. It's childish bullying.
| cute shoes make me happy |
Okay, here we go again.
I'm not sorry for what I said. If you chose to take it out of context, that's your issue. I'm not going to apologize if I'm not truly sorry. That would be hypocritical of me.
What I AM sorry for is that this thread got so out of control. I'm sorry that so many hateful words have been tossed around. I'm sorry that the trolls came out of the woodwork.
You all can think whatever you want about me. I don't really care. Call be a racist. Tear me down. It doesn't matter. I know that I'm a good person who would never intentionally cause harm to anyone. And, not to sound cliche, but when you point fingers, ladies...there's three more pointing back at you.
This thread was SO 24 hours ago....
updated 10.03.12