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16 Civilians, Including 9 Children, Shot by American
I am so heartbroken. This is not who we are. God help the families of those civilians, and God help the troops at the FOB, and all Americans in country. Why aren't we catching the signs? I knew someone once who wasn't world's greatest Marine, but wasn't insane, and he got sent home early from deployment, escorted by a guard, because of a disagreement with one of his NCOs. Something about a psychological issue, I never heard the whole story. So WTF aren't we catching this?!
Why are we burning the Qur'an? Why are we peeing on bodies? Why are we murdering children? This isn't who we are. So why is it happening?
I've seen a lot of military surprise homecomings. It wouldn't work on me. I always have my back to the corner and my face to the door. Looking for terrorists, criminals, various other threats, and husbands.
Re: 16 Civilians, Including 9 Children, Shot by American
I'm not making excuses but if we rely on other SMs to catch the signs and they're all drained from multiple grueling deployments can you really blame them for missing the signs? I feel like our military members are at their mental breaking point and this is why things like peeing on bodies and murder are happening. (I have different opinions on the Qur'an incident but don't want to digress.) They are human beings, they only have so much to give and I think most have given way in excessive of that.
And we all know mental illness isn't cookie cutter...some people just don't exhibit the signs until this happens.
When I read this headline this morning I was sickened. I fear for our troops...I feel like we've lost the hearts and the minds of the Afghani people.
While it was a rhetorical question, I'll answer with what I believe to be truth. Leadership is responsible and accountable for everything. If not through leadership being on heightened alert for things like this, how do we avoid it? Do you think they're unavoidable?
I don't think we can make excuses for this. Murder, especially of children, is not just explained away by them being at their mental breaking points, and if it can be, then I believe there had to have been signs and it should have been caught.
ETA: What I mean by the second paragraph is that murder cannot be explained by "so many of them being at their mental breaking point", because I hope and pray that all these inappropriate incidents, and very especially these murders, are isolated.
Change in sleeping habits (too much or too little sleep)Withdrawal from family and friendsDisorganized, hard-to-understand speech, or diminished verbal interaction with othersLack of emotional responseDecreased motivation; inability to concentrate or focusExhibiting unusual behavior, hoarding objects, or wearing strange clothingSuspiciousness or hostilityHaving strange or unbelievable ideas, such as "My parents are poisoning my food."Hallucinations
I don't know, obviously I've never been in combat, but those do not sound like normal combat behaviors to me, based on my conversations/friendships with people in a variety of MOSs, other than the lack of emotional response, and perhaps the sleeping issue.
As to your first point, I obviously think that's actually healthy. I took the link to mean suspicion/hostility towards fellow troops, which I think would be a big sign with the camaraderie that occurs in combat.
As to the second, again, I think sudden withdrawal from the guys you're that close with is a sign.
Regardless of my nitpicking over something I've taken all of 2 classes in, I don't care what we have to do, I don't care if we need mental health on every single FOB or if a mental health professional is required for a platoon like a GD medic. We can't be murdering children.
See, and I'm your freak Charlie Wilson/John McCain Dem who expects us to be back in 20 years because of how poorly this war was run from the get go.
*I know Senator McCain is not a Democrat.
After not putting a footnote for Arab vs. non-Arab Africa the other day, I felt the need.
I was against invading Afghanistan in the first place, and I was way, way against Iraq. I think we had no grand strategy vision in either place, and that is always our downfall. I can't even blame President Obama (though I want to) for pulling out all Vietnam style. The American people have very short appetites for war. They're so bloody psyched at the beginning, lots of country songs about the Statue of Liberty shaking her fist and whatnot, but I wish, just once since WWII/Korea, that we would slow our roll a little bit and realize that for grand strategy success, we need things like the Marshall plan. I'm happy with our limited intervention in Libya, I just wish we had been smarter and listened to Charlie Wilson 20/25 years ago, when the Afghan population was like 70% under age 14. We could have built schools, we could have built a valid gov't. They loved us then. It all just kills me.
Stan, I think you're absolutely right. This isn't who we are and it is heartbreaking.
I just don't even know what to say. I want to say I'm ashamed as an American, but I know that the shooter surely had some sort of combat-related mental illness so I can't bring myself to condemn him 100%. I just wish we could do a better job of protecting our SMs from combat-related mental illnesses.
You know Tx, I was thinking the same thing earlier when I read that's what one of the family members want. If I trusted the Afghan judicial system (and I don't), I might be for it, because of the message it would send (to the Afghans), that we take this seriously and this isn't who we are. I just can't get on board with that though.
I totally agree, well said.
I will say that before this deployment, one of the Marines in my husband's unit was talking like he had homicidal ideations (he was talking about wanting to stab people, kill people, etc.), and they still let him deploy. I was like, how are you guys still letting him deploy with you, and my husband told me it has to do with people just saying crap like that to get out of deployments and if people knew they could get out of them by saying stuff like this, a lot of people would just so they didn't have to go.
F those guys. That makes me so angry. I can't even imagine not wanting to be deployed if my theoretical unit was deployed.
I guess the answer to that is that fine, they don't go, but they spend the entire deployment time with Navy psychologists/psychiatrists, like every day, they show up like it's their MOS, and if it's determined they lied, they get punitive discharges, and if they didn't lie, they get medically separated.
This is absolutely heartbreaking. I can see a lot of the points that everyone has made though on this thread, and I really don't know how I completely feel.
As much as I don't like the thought of what would happen, I think I do agree that he should be handed over to Afghani officials for punishment. He committed horrible crimes, and if a foreigner committed similar acts on our soil there is no way in hell the US would send them back to their own country for punishment. While I believe without a shadow of doubt that he had psych problems, and possibly was attempting suicide by murder, I think it's going to cause a huge negative reaction from the Aghani people against our troops if we completely ignore their request.
This just makes me so sick.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/world/asia/afghanistan-civilians-killed-american-soldier-held.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
Someone posted this article on P&CE. The second paragraph is just horrifying, FYI. I think his trial should be public, in Afghanistan by an American/Afghan tribunal. I don't think he was trying to commit suicide, and I'm horrified that he was a SSG.
I'm sad and ashamed that people are calling for this man to be turned over to the local judicial system for trial.
This man has deployed four times in the span of at least eleven years (according to the last link Stan posted). It appears he is some form of special forces so God only knows what he has seen and gone through. I think we need to operate under the assumption that this man is extremely mental ill until otherwise proven.
If we just toss him over to the local judicial system, which is highly unlikely to give him a fair trial, we (as a country) are telling all our of service members that they're on their own. Assuming this man is extremely mentally ill, we created this and now we're saying "we missed all the signs, failed to get you help but you're on your own".
Mental illness doesn't excuse the fact that sixteen innocent people are now dead but it also doesn't sanction washing our hands of this man because it makes our military and our country look bad. This man needs help for the rest of his life and it's the least we can provide to him.
And on a legal note, if we allow this man to be turned over to the local judicial system we're essentially voiding the indemnity we have for our service members. This is the exact reason we withdrew from Iraq...their government no longer wanted to provide indemnity to our service members. Maybe they saw something we didn't.
I'm not saying this isn't an incredibly crappy thing but where is the outrage when ANA soldiers are shooting their US/NATO counterparts in the back? Or going into the interior ministry building and shooting US advisors in the back of the head?
In those instances, I doubt one can even say it was caused by a mental illness or psychotic break. Those are malicious acts and I see no public outrage.
Is it because there were women and children, not just men?
I'm not trying to make light of what has happened, I really am just curious.
I completely agree with this. I find it Highly unlikely that we would ever turn him over to their justice system, but I do disagree with even the thought of it.
As someone else mentioned if all the anger regarding this was more because it involved women and children, for me.. to some extent yes. I'd be upset if he killed 16 unarmed men, absolutely. But the idea that there were innocent children involved makes my stomach turn even worse. I just imagine myself in that situation and it saddens me to the core.
He was not SF, nor Ranger. But I agree with you.
"The official said the sergeant was not a Green Beret himself. "
But who's to say which is the cause in either this recent instance or the ones you describe? The atrocities of war make me pretty sick to think about, but I would say it's absolutely incorrect to go assuming the US soldiers are all mentally ill and the Afghan soldiers are all malicious. Just my two cents, however flameworthy that may sound.
Thanks! Reading too fast...
Totally understandable. Especially since the media always seems to throw in that they are some sort of special forces even when they're not.
If you read what has written about these instances (and I hear from those who are there and witnessed one of these) - Taliban (and others) are infiltrating the ANA with ill intent. To gain trust and then shoot their instructors, team leaders, etc. In the instance of the interior ministry, the shooter worked with someone on the inside in order to get into the building, commit murder, and sneak out. To me that is a different mindset.
I am not saying one side is mentally ill and the other is not. It may have come across that way but not my intention at all. My point is, where is the outrage for the other people who have been killed? Both sides included. I am not anymore outraged at this incident as I am at those. I suppose that is my question to those who are vocal about this and not at other times.
Mentall ill or malicious intent - I cannot prove either one. None of us on this board can. I can play DA and say that soldier was in his right mind and knew exactly what he was doing. It won't change the fact that people are dying on both sides, regularly.
ETA: I am sensitive and deaths on both sides make my heart hurt. These past few months (and years) in Afghanistan have not been ideal. I have lost several friends and my H is currently there. Slightly off topic: This world we live in needs a serious restart. I'm all for world peace and rainbows and that really doesn't mesh with where we are.
From some of the stuff I have read, the houses were rather far apart for one soldier to have acted alone. You would think at some point someone would have shot at him.
That all aside, I am saddened and disgusted. I agree with KC and think we need to get out of there now.
I can agree with this. Both sides have been living in war for ten years.
I think my point in assuming this man is mental ill is so we don't act (or allow other people to act) in the heat of the moment. If this man is found to be of sound mind and simply void of a conscience/soul/whatever then sure let's give him a trial and a sentence to fit the crime.
Absolutely, I agree his mental state needs to be determined and treated accordingly. And I also know even from friends who have been over there, "psychotic" or not, they are not the same as when they left. Regardless, there should be some screening or treatment happening in the warzone, while they are still carrying out orders--whether that prevents more instances like this or not, I don't know. But it can't hurt, IMO.
So basically we agree. I'm terrible at getting my point across when writing - something about my delivery/tone not really showing through. More often than not, I'm just generally curious what others think on the topic.
Haha yeah, we definitely agree. I misunderstood your original post but your follow up was dead on for me.
You're curious font must be broken.
It definitely is.
the armchair psychology in this post is making my eye twitch.
I changed my name