16 Civilians, Including 9 Children, Shot by American

iluvmytxrgr

Sgt M's Wife:

I'm sad and ashamed that people are calling for this man to be turned over to the local judicial system for trial.

This man has deployed four times in the span of at least eleven years (according to the last link Stan posted).  It appears he is some form of special forces so God only knows what he has seen and gone through.  I think we need to operate under the assumption that this man is extremely mental ill until otherwise proven.

If we just toss him over to the local judicial system, which is highly unlikely to give him a fair trial, we (as a country) are telling all our of service members that they're on their own.  Assuming this man is extremely mentally ill, we created this and now we're saying "we missed all the signs, failed to get you help but you're on your own".

Mental illness doesn't excuse the fact that sixteen innocent people are now dead but it also doesn't sanction washing our hands of this man because it makes our military and our country look bad.  This man needs help for the rest of his life and it's the least we can provide to him.

And on a legal note, if we allow this man to be turned over to the local judicial system we're essentially voiding the indemnity we have for our service members.  This is the exact reason we withdrew from Iraq...their government no longer wanted to provide indemnity to our service members.  Maybe they saw something we didn't. 

Mine is leaving for #13 soon out of 10 years. That's no excuse.  

iluvmytxrgr

I'd also like to add something that angers me beyond all sanity. There are many times people are kicked out of units like my husband's. They are sent out of those units and into the "regular Army" with paperwork explaining this person is not fit for this unit because of mental issues, behavioral issues and so forth. Because they have expirience in Spec Ops units, they are put in leadership positions. It just recently happened. One guy wa sent off because he had issues. 3rd ID ranked him up to E5 and made him a team leader. This was a guy who refused to follow orders, almost got people killed. Now he's headed of to SF selection. I can tell you at least 10 people who have gone this exact route. This needs to stop ASAP. This is why crap like this happens. 

kyrgyzstan

SpunkyBlowfish:

Irishcurls:

SpunkyBlowfish:

I'm not saying this isn't an incredibly crappy thing but where is the outrage when ANA soldiers are shooting their US/NATO counterparts in the back? Or going into the interior ministry building and shooting US advisors in the back of the head? 

In those instances, I doubt one can even say it was caused by a mental illness or psychotic break. Those are malicious acts and I see no public outrage. 

Is it because there were women and children, not just men?

I'm not trying to make light of what has happened, I really am just curious. 

But who's to say which is the cause in either this recent instance or the ones you describe? The atrocities of war make me pretty sick to think about, but I would say it's absolutely incorrect to go assuming the US soldiers are all mentally ill and the Afghan soldiers are all malicious.  Just my two cents, however flameworthy that may sound.

If you read what has written about these instances (and I hear from those who are there and witnessed one of these) - Taliban (and others) are infiltrating the ANA with ill intent. To gain trust and then shoot their instructors, team leaders, etc. In the instance of the interior ministry, the shooter worked with someone on the inside in order to get into the building, commit murder, and sneak out. To me that is a different mindset.

I am not saying one side is mentally ill and the other is not. It may have come across that way but not my intention at all. My point is, where is the outrage for the other people who have been killed? Both sides included. I am not anymore outraged at this incident as I am at those. I suppose that is my question to those who are vocal about this and not at other times. 

Mentall ill or malicious intent - I cannot prove either one. None of us on this board can. I can play DA and say that soldier was in his right mind and knew exactly what he was doing. It won't change the fact that people are dying on both sides, regularly. 

ETA: I am sensitive and deaths on both sides make my heart hurt. These past few months (and years) in Afghanistan have not been ideal. I have lost several friends and my H is currently there. Slightly off topic: This world we live in needs a serious restart. I'm all for world peace and rainbows and that really doesn't mesh with where we are. 

I'm going to ETA here and not delete the rest because, hey, I said it. I reread this and now realize you weren't accusing the responders in this post of not caring about American service members, but rather Karzai, and I get that. I agree with you. I haven't liked Karzai really ever, and I don't think he cares when American service members die. So I'm tracking. I apologize for taking your post personally. Good old narcissism from me. I'm sorry. /ETA  

Are you kidding me?! You don't think I'm angry and upset when American service members are killed? I was at a memorial service a week ago because one of the kids in that crash was one of H's. Much like you, I have had to wonder multiple times over the last year if this crash meant my husband was dead. I'm not saying my husband has a fancy job, he doesn't, but I know fear, and I know sensitivity. But there is a damn huge difference between a service member/American official in Afghanistan dying and a civilian (or multiple civilians). This is not who WE are supposed to be. It's exactly who I expect the Taliban to be. My husband volunteered to go, we prayed for him to get a deploying unit. I don't think any one of the 16 civilians killed prayed to be involved in war, and I don't think any of the children had volunteered. 

kyrgyzstan

Sgt M's Wife:

I'm sad and ashamed that people are calling for this man to be turned over to the local judicial system for trial.

I don't think it's fair to say that you're ashamed of people for wanting to turn him over. As I said earlier, I can't get on board with that, but I understand why people would. My H doesn't really work with the civilian population, but SF folks do, and regular infantry does. And my H is outside the wire on an almost daily basis, and gets stuck at super remote places sometimes, so I would like very much if the civilian population is as on our side as much as we can get them. The people calling for him to be turned over, I believe, are doing so for two reasons. One, because it's true that if this happened on our soil, we would prosecute him all by ourselves, and people would be circling the courthouse with pitch forks. Two, because they have the mission front and center in their minds. Turning him over would further our mission in Afghanistan. It simply would.

I can't get on board because I believe he would be tortured and killed, I don't think he would get a fair trial, and I agree that it would jeopardize every service member who fires a weapon (or not, really) in country, and I can't support that.

And now, I really think I need to step away from this post. 

AlouetteBeans

Killer Cupcake:

JillyWtP:

the armchair psychology in this post is making my eye twitch.

 

Sorry Jilly. 

lol no worries

hindsight's_a_biotch

Why are we talking one BSC dude and assuming it's a statement on the entire military? We try hard not to do that with other people, other religions, other organizations.

It's a terrible, shiitty thing and we needs to look into this further to find out if his battle buddies and COC acted appropriately but we shouldn't be taking these things are representative of the military or America as a whole.

Who is this collective "we" you keep referencing? Of course this isn't who we are, just as 9/11 isn't who muslims are, Casey Anthony isn't who 20 year old mothers are, and Cujo isn't who pit bulls are.

hindsight's_a_biotch

Also, we shouldn't turn him over to the local justice system because we're talking about a nation that has no qualms about stoning a woman for burning dinner.

I think the best way would be to do the trial in Afghanistan, allow Afghani witnesses to participate in the process by giving testimony, and going from there. Let justice be served and don't allow ourselves reactionary and non-sensical responses.

The fact of the matter is that the overall picture in Aghanistan is fuuked. It's not as if this one event is what's screwing us over there. So handing him over isn't going to make one dent in our perception.

As for being on the Koran, as ridiculous as it is, we do have free speech and we can't compromise our values and rights as Americans just because some people choose to express those rights in ugly ways. See Westboro Baptist Church.

kyrgyzstan

hindsight's_a_biotch:

Why are we talking one BSC dude and assuming it's a statement on the entire military? We try hard not to do that with other people, other religions, other organizations.

It's a terrible, shiitty thing and we needs to look into this further to find out if his battle buddies and COC acted appropriately but we shouldn't be taking these things are representative of the military or America as a whole.

Who is this collective "we" you keep referencing? Of course this isn't who we are, just as 9/11 isn't who muslims are, Casey Anthony isn't who 20 year old mothers are, and Cujo isn't who pit bulls are.

Wouldnt it be nice if the local population didn't decide to provide aid and comfort to the other side based on this sort of thing? Wouldn't it be nice if this crap wasn't recruitment fodder for the other side? But it is. This BS scares me precisely because this affects the mission. It's obtuse to think it doesn't. 

kyrgyzstan

hindsight's_a_biotch:

As for being on the Koran, as ridiculous as it is, we do have free speech and we can't compromise our values and rights as Americans just because some people choose to express those rights in ugly ways. See Westboro Baptist Church.

Service members don't have free speech. I don't care what a jerky pastor does, but I do care what US troops do.  

hindsight's_a_biotch

WishIcouldbeinthe'stan:

Wouldnt it be nice if the local population didn't decide to provide aid and comfort to the other side based on this sort of thing? Wouldn't it be nice if this crap wasn't recruitment fodder for the other side? But it is. This BS scares me precisely because this affects the mission. It's obtuse to think it doesn't. 

Now you're just being hyperbolic and putting words under my fingertips. There's a fine line between passionate and hysterical. Be careful you don't cross it.

kyrgyzstan

hindsight's_a_biotch:

WishIcouldbeinthe'stan:

Wouldnt it be nice if the local population didn't decide to provide aid and comfort to the other side based on this sort of thing? Wouldn't it be nice if this crap wasn't recruitment fodder for the other side? But it is. This BS scares me precisely because this affects the mission. It's obtuse to think it doesn't. 

Now you're just being hyperbolic and putting words under my fingertips. There's a fine line between passionate and hysterical. Be careful you don't cross it.

Thanks for the advice.  

SpunkyBlowfish

WishIcouldbeinthe'stan:

SpunkyBlowfish:

Irishcurls:

SpunkyBlowfish:

I'm not saying this isn't an incredibly crappy thing but where is the outrage when ANA soldiers are shooting their US/NATO counterparts in the back? Or going into the interior ministry building and shooting US advisors in the back of the head? 

In those instances, I doubt one can even say it was caused by a mental illness or psychotic break. Those are malicious acts and I see no public outrage. 

Is it because there were women and children, not just men?

I'm not trying to make light of what has happened, I really am just curious. 

But who's to say which is the cause in either this recent instance or the ones you describe? The atrocities of war make me pretty sick to think about, but I would say it's absolutely incorrect to go assuming the US soldiers are all mentally ill and the Afghan soldiers are all malicious.  Just my two cents, however flameworthy that may sound.

If you read what has written about these instances (and I hear from those who are there and witnessed one of these) - Taliban (and others) are infiltrating the ANA with ill intent. To gain trust and then shoot their instructors, team leaders, etc. In the instance of the interior ministry, the shooter worked with someone on the inside in order to get into the building, commit murder, and sneak out. To me that is a different mindset.

I am not saying one side is mentally ill and the other is not. It may have come across that way but not my intention at all. My point is, where is the outrage for the other people who have been killed? Both sides included. I am not anymore outraged at this incident as I am at those. I suppose that is my question to those who are vocal about this and not at other times. 

Mentall ill or malicious intent - I cannot prove either one. None of us on this board can. I can play DA and say that soldier was in his right mind and knew exactly what he was doing. It won't change the fact that people are dying on both sides, regularly. 

ETA: I am sensitive and deaths on both sides make my heart hurt. These past few months (and years) in Afghanistan have not been ideal. I have lost several friends and my H is currently there. Slightly off topic: This world we live in needs a serious restart. I'm all for world peace and rainbows and that really doesn't mesh with where we are. 

I'm going to ETA here and not delete the rest because, hey, I said it. I reread this and now realize you weren't accusing the responders in this post of not caring about American service members, but rather Karzai, and I get that. I agree with you. I haven't liked Karzai really ever, and I don't think he cares when American service members die. So I'm tracking. I apologize for taking your post personally. Good old narcissism from me. I'm sorry. /ETA  

Are you kidding me?! You don't think I'm angry and upset when American service members are killed? I was at a memorial service a week ago because one of the kids in that crash was one of H's. Much like you, I have had to wonder multiple times over the last year if this crash meant my husband was dead. I'm not saying my husband has a fancy job, he doesn't, but I know fear, and I know sensitivity. But there is a damn huge difference between a service member/American official in Afghanistan dying and a civilian (or multiple civilians). This is not who WE are supposed to be. It's exactly who I expect the Taliban to be. My husband volunteered to go, we prayed for him to get a deploying unit. I don't think any one of the 16 civilians killed prayed to be involved in war, and I don't think any of the children had volunteered. 

No worries Stan. You're right, I am not accusing those in this thread, more like the general public, Karzai, and the gov't.