Politics & Current Events
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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: Open Letter to Working Moms
The two things I'm most anxious about, financially are 1) saving for my own/H's retirement and 2) being able to send my children to college.
If you don't save for retirement... well, you don't retire, right? SS will likely not be around, and even if it is, try living exclusively on SS income today, let alone in 40 years. As it is, I'm assuming H and I will both work until we're around 70, or at least until our children are done with college, the house is paid off, etc.
The cost of college might be... oh, $200k-$400k per child in 20 years. Which I personally have a problem shifting the burden of to my children. They might choose not to go to college. I hope they do choose to do so. And I want to be financially able to give that too them. Just knowing the very little (relatively) SL debt my H and I have and how annoying that payment is, and what else we could be spending it on makes me blanch when I think of my children delaying marriage, their own children, home buying, whatever, just because they felt they had to take out $250k in loans for a 4 year degree.
Other people might not agree, but this is by far what makes me feel the most comfortable. It's also a large reason I don't have children yet - I'm not in a position where I feel financially comfortable. And since money grows, the sooner I can invest in either, the better. I don't want to wait until my kid is 14 to start thinking about college costs.
The number I mentioned is what you get when you max out typical retirement vehicles ($17k/person for 401k, $5k/person for either a traditional or Roth IRA), and 503b plans for college investments ($12k/year/child). Personally, this is a goal I have, although I might not use those specific vehicles (dividing college savings among a 503b and other investments, for example).
40/112
I've been "blessed" to be both a SAHM (stayed home with DD until she was about 15 months old, basically because I was unemployed by choice) and a WM (been back on the job since December.) On one hand I did love being able to witness most of DD's "firsts" and spend so much time with her. But that said, I'm infinitely more happy as a WM. It's not about "creature comforts", it's about my sanity! I feel like I have a much higher self-worth when I'm actually going out and doing something that I get paid for, and being able to help out my DH with the bills. And I like being able to have adult conversations with peers... I still drive the same car I used to, we still live in the same house. The only creature comforts we've added since I've been employed are internet and satellite. Oh, and DH's Netflix. LOL
Unfortuately, I know someone just like "Bethany from MO". In fact she used to be a neighbor of ours at a time when neither me nor DH had a job and we were truly destitute... living in an apartment complex that just recently had a police shootout. We moved out a while after DH got a good job to a nice yet small house in the country. About the same time, she and her family got kicked out of the apt for not paying rent. Her "DH" (There the D stands for douchebag) barely works and they now live in a house just like what "Bethany" described. They already have two kids... and she is now pregnant again. With twins! But yet, he barely works and she stays at home, because "it's her duty as a woman of God." *smh* And of course she is going to homeschool her poor kids...
No, I think it is. But when people who use Costco shelving units as beds get judgy about, of all things, people who want to be able to afford a better lifestyle, it kind of makes those people defensive.
40/112
This, exactly.
I chuckle every time I read something like this because they all assume we want their lives. Well, I don't. And I know very, very few people who would. And the self-imposed poverty lady, that is just insane!! I just can't even imagine.
i get the math. my "confusion" face came in after that. is this a goal you feel you have to achieve before you have kids? this looks to me to be the other end of the bell curve.
Ahh... the SAHM vs WOHM Mommy War battle. I definitely enjoy it more than the BF vs FF onslaught. Off topic - every time I read the phrase "Mommy Wars", I think of Restaurant Wars on Top Chef and I wonder what the challenge would look like if Mommy Wars actually ended in a clear winner and someone having to "Pack your toys and go home."
Really? You honestly think everyone needs to be putting away $68K a year in retirement and college savings? Or the high horse of "not putting the burden of our family's costs and retirement entirely on him"?
The poor husband. A Nest classic.
Well, I can't set up a 503b without an SS number, but ideally, close to it.
I guess it's the time aspect of everything that seriously keeps me awake. I'll be 75 years old one day, whether I like it or not, and whether I've saved for retirement or not. I can't delay getting old. Once I have kids, I can't delay saving money for them. I can't say, "it would be really great if you can spend a few more years in high school so I have a little wiggle room when it comes to saving."
And this is why I'm scared of having kids! And the irony is that I'm pretty sure nothing compromises your ability to save money like... having kids.
40/112
That's a really good point. It factors for us, also...it's not like we'd be getting a huge jump in disposable income if DH worked, by the time you factor in taxes and the extra costs. What's left just frankly isn't worth the time we'd lose nights/weekends getting caught up on housework, laundry, etc. that he mostly does now while I'm at work.
As a working mom that's currently incredibly busy, frazzled and sometimes thisclosetochuckingthejoballtohell, this was kinda what I needed to read.
Interestingly enough, the judgy mcjudgerson who wrote that "open letter" was hoping to shame me, but she did the exact opposite. She reminded me of why I put myself through hell some weeks. I do want my kids to have certain experiences. I do want my kids to go to private school (especially since schools in SoFla are far from ideal). I do want my kids to have beds instead of shelving when it's time to sleep and I want them to ride in safe vehicles, instead of cars that occasionally break down or require a ton in repairs. I want them to have good healthcare options and I do want them to have money set aside for them to use if they want to go to college. The only way I can give my son (and any future child) these things is if my husband and I both work. You may think those aren't essentials, and maybe they're not...but they're what I want for my family. Sue me. View me as a materialistic asshat. I don't think I mind as much as you think I should.
So thanks, crazy lady...you were hoping I'd see the light, realize I'm a terrible mother and that I'd storm into my boss' office tomorrow with a letter of resignation. Instead, you've actually just given me the impetus to keep trying to fight the good fight. Instead of staying home, tomorrow I'll be covering a pretty snazzy event and on Sunday, I'll even be bringing my neglected child and husband to said event so we can spend time together as a family. And the H and I are really looking forward to bringing our little kid to one of the coolest events SoFla has to offer.
Yeah, that's definitely the stuff of godawful mothering, isn't it?
i'm the last one to tell people how to manage their money but i can tell you that trying to contol everything won't work. you're never going to be completely ready.
this is what i think people are getting at. it's ok not to have $600K in the bank for your kid to go to school and for you to retire on. just because you have to cut back on small things does not equal making your kids sleep on bookshelves, KWIM?
Let me rephrase my original post, since I really did not mean to set this off:
Oh! Of course! I could live in a dilapidated house and drive a 13 year old mini van! Why didn't I think of that? Cutting cable will save enough money for me to be able to afford ALL my groceries! And to think, I was concerned about things like saving for retirement. Silly me with differing priorities and all that.
40/112
I'd love not to work. LOVE IT. And I probably could afford not to work. But I don't want to be poor forever.
My car is 10 years old, no cable, I thrift and sale shop and my dh's work pays for his car and our internet. We don't eat out every week.
Screw you Costco Mom. Screw you.
My family's health (both mental and physical), safety, and general well-being are too important to me to decide to live in f*cking poverty so I can stay home. Sometimes you have to suck it up, and do the things you don't want to do.
Driving an unsafe car, losing your family's only vehicle, not paying medical bills, having snakes and rodents in your walls...not happening.
this is why you're being given the side-eye.
This I'm OK with.
There's a WM assault of SAHM's that they're depriving their kids of a better lifestyle (which is reasonable if you're talking snake-free living arrangements, ridiculous if it means not having a gym and zoo membership). If you'll feel more comfortable contributing financially to your house, you have to do what makes you happy, but "SAHM is laying the burden all on her husband" is an old line of attack, also.
BTW, I have to say, it's a little overachieving to get in a Mommy War pre-kids. I'm tempted to be a b!tch and throw down a "It'll all change when you have them", but I won't
.
I'm not sure how not paying for your kid's college is "shifting a burden." Pay for it or don't pay for it, pay for part of it, I don't give a damn either way. But the idea that not paying for your kid's college means you're a slacker who's shirking your duty as a parent is pretty silly.
And while saving for retirement is important, there's nothing to say that you can't do so while raising kids. It's still a preference.
msmery, you're getting the side eye because your posts make it sound like anyone who doesn't have their retirement and their kids' college funds in line before they procreate has priorities that are out of line with parenting and it's just a silly argument to make. It's also not a realistic expectation at some income levels. But that might be a flammable thing to say.
Click me, click me!
I'm actually not trying to say that, but I apologize, because I realize it sounds like I did. I'm pretty good at putting my foot in my mouth. It was more of a complete 180 sort of response to the OP's blog entry about how HER way of life is totally do-able and acceptable. And I was trying to point out that for me, her way of life is the complete opposite of what my goals are for a family. But in the process I made it sound like I was critical of anyone who chooses differenly than ME. And that's not true.
Her comments about "just shopping at thrift stores" made it sound like she has no clue about lifestyles other than her own. And maybe I sounded the same way. Though we can all agree that health and safety are not things you can compromise, especially with children.
40/112
Ditto, ish. I don't understand why people get so up in arms--on either side. I understand the outrage from blogs like this, because it's sanctimonious bull, but in general, I just don't get it. But I seem to lack the Mommy War gene, because I don't give a damn about ff/bf, nip, CIO or whatever other acronyms I'm forgetting.
Hs mom stayed home. H, in some ways, wishes one of us would stay home with our son. H cant, as he makes about 85% of our income. I could, but I'd go effing crazy. Also, we have free child care (via my aunt and gma who have already worked out a sxhedule)...so, knowing me and my desire to be out of the house and busy, I'd probably spend the equivalent $ amount as daycare on random target trips and weird Mommy & Me Infant Yoga classes or someshit
I'm actually with HAB and mystic and eclaires here.
People have all kinds of circumstances, and the OP's "open letter was crap", as was the posted rats-in-the-walls response... as is trying to say that you have to be saving $68K annually before you spend dollar one on anything if you're going to have kids.
I worked for a long time before having kids, and actually saw myself as somebody who would work after having them. I didn't see myself as somebody who was in her late 30's before meeting her husband, who therefore opted to have two kids reallyclose in age, making daycare in a major city almost more expensive than my government job paid, after taxes.
I haven't ever told a working mom that I wish I could be working, though there are days when that's true. It'd be nice to get out from under the craziness for a while.
...but I have had working moms tell me that they wish they could stay home.... then I've seen them head off in their BMW SUV's. Honest. To the extent that you're choosing luxury goods over something that you say you want your priorities are messed up. It's a rarity, but it's true. To those women, I wish I could have a sit-down. The rest of folks... you want to work, work. You want to stay home, stay home.
(Shares one paid-off car with the husband. Lives in kind of a crappy house in a kind of crappy neighborhood. Etc.)
I am the 99%.
Here, here!
I do work because I like to have money saved for retirement, college, and I like spending money going out to eat. I like my lifestyle and we couldn't afford this lifestyle if I didn't work. I am not going to lie.
But after spending a weekend alone with my daughter on Saturdays (DH works), I remember why I work for real.
Daycare workers clearly have more patience than I do.
#badmom
Amen! I was just talking to a friend about this yesterday. She's SAH after her second. Good for her. But I about lost my mind yesterday when I had my LO home with me all day. I like working and having my mind and body to myself for 8 hours a day. I don't judge anyone who stays at home (unless they stack their kids on shelving and have rats/snacks in the house) and I don't expect to be judged for liking work.
And I really thought the post was satire. I wish it were. Poor kids.
If I could save $68,000 a year I would wonder, after a few years, why I was working at all.
That's actually my point. That's MY concept of part of the financial considerations that come with being a parent, which is worlds away from the OP.
ETA: I said that a big chunk would be before taxes. It's not $68k in liquid cash. I don't think most people would count their 401k towards their yearly savings goals.
40/112
ITA with this. I think the OP is over-the-top but I don't think there is anything wrong with everyone (SAHM and WM...and their husbands) to reflect on their choices and their resons for those choices. To some extent I think we all need to be more honest with ourselves.