Video of Zimmerman after shooting shows no cuts, bruises

hindsight's_a_biotch

mrsbecky07:

To tack onto SMo's point and to reiterate what HAB and I think TTT said earlier....

 AW, the reason there is an assumption of "trying to believe the white man" or however epphd phrased it (I dont have the quote in front of me, sorry epphd!) when people talk about "wanting the full story" is because that overlooks the one very simple fact that started this. 

Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose. Even if Zimmerman did eventually pull the gun on him in self-defense. Even if the actual killing was self-defense....

Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin because he saw a young black male, wearing a hoodie, that he thought looked "suspicious" due to the color of his skin and what he was wearing.  that's where the racism comes into play here.  Even if Zimmerman is telling the truth about everything that happened once he actually encountered Trayvon - he called 911, got out of his car and started following the young black male dressed "suspiciously."  That's why people are discussing racism here.

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!

tartaruga

The thing is, this case is so much more complicated than "he's racist" or "it was self defense." I don't believe that Zimmerman said "I'm going to kill a black guy tonight." I don't believe he even intended to kill Trayvon after whatever confrontation that happened happened. I think he genuinely thought there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood and took it upon himself to be the one to stop him.

But, why did he think Trayvon was suspicious? That's where the racism comes into play. I don't think he consciously thought "oh black guy, must be a criminal" but it was there, the underlying assumption or prejudice that a black kid in a hoodie must be up to no good. 

I think that what happened was Zimmerman honestly thought this kid was casing houses or something, so he confronted him. Trayvon did not take kindly to being questioned by a random guy following him in a car, Zimmerman said something to set him off (something racial? who knows), a confrontation ensued. Maybe Trayvon punched him or pushed him onto the ground, Zimmerman either got scared or got pissed off, pulled his gun and fired or possibly the gun went off accidentally.

What happened was a tragedy. It was probably a crime. But the real racism here to me is not the actual incident but the fact that the criminal justice system in Sanford failed to even consider Trayvon a victim. Zimmerman should have been arrested, full stop. There was more than enough probable cause. There is plenty of evidence that should be heard in court before a judge or jury. That is the real injustice - that it hasn't even made it that far. That either the police or the DA considered Trayvon's death so insignificant as to not even bother to fully investigate what happened. 

MeredithE

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

+adamwife+

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

I think it's a standard part of an autopsy, isn't it?

DownToEarthGirl

I think that you don't need all the details to form an opinion, we aren't the jury, but this is something to think about b/c a lot of us have kids that will be surley teens and don't want to be in a situation like this ever.  IMO the details will be important in court, but let's look at the big picture. 

Adult male patrols his neighborhood (I'd say snoops since he's not asked to do so) from a car with a gun and was asked by authority not to pursue a kid one evening.  Adult chose to ignore the authority's wishes and confronts an innocent kid in the backyards of people's houses on a public path.  According to adult, he must have confronted the kid with a gun in obvious view if they had to "struggle over the gun" (debatable).  Kid reacts aggressively (debatable) b/c he's confronted.  Adult shoots a kid in a public area/backyard of neighborhood - possibly near other kids if there is a 13 yr old witness. 

The adult has made a LOT of bad choices that night: carrying a gun to patrol a neighborhood that he was asked not to do, carrying a gun with a bunch of kids around following/perhaps surprising a kid who is talking on the phone after authority asked him not to, pulling/showing a gun, shooting and killing a kid. 

The kid made one bad choice that is debatable - being aggresive when confronted.  I cannot see that the kid's consequence of dying is reasonable and I don't see any consequences applied to the adult who made multiple bad choices and created the whole situation?!

And seriously, what "neighborhood watch" self-proclaimed or officially appointed doesn't know/carry non-lethal forms of protection like pepper spray or tazers?  Heck, even police carry non-lethal forms of protection and use them way more often then their guns. 

soontobeka

+adamwife+:

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

I think it's a standard part of an autopsy, isn't it?

I can only speak from our experience but Cam had a tox screen as part of her autopsy. My issue is that Zimmerman did not have to submit to an alcohol or drug screen after the shooting.

mrsbecky07

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

it was in an article someone posted here I think? I am not sure if it is standard protocol or not. It may be just part of an autopsy?   The whole John Doe thing is the really bad part to me because it indicates the mindset of the police force and the hospital workers.

LaPiscine

tartaruga:

I'll give him the nose, but there's no way in hell that someone whose head was bashed into the sidewalk wouldn't be bleeding and/or have a visible injury.

I find the more important detail to be the condition of his t-shirt.  Even assuming he got cleaned up and used his wolverine healing powers to heal himself, there should have been blood all over his shirt from his nose and head.  I believe he also said that Trayvon jumped on him and he shot him in the middle of the tussle. If he shot him at basically point blank range, there would be Trayvon's blood on his shirt.  His clothes are pristine.  

LaPiscine

+adamwife+:

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

I think it's a standard part of an autopsy, isn't it?

Not unless you don't know the cause of death.  So unless the coroner was standing around like, "Yeah, there's a big gaping gun shot to his chest, but we don't know.  If CSI has taught us anything, it's that that wound could have been postmortem.  Better test him for a drug overdose.  Also lets see if we can match the paint under his finger nails to one of the neighborhood houses by using a non-existent computer program that will tell us exactly what color the paint was and how many people in FL have used that color on their house.  Dun dun dahhhhh."

No.  There was no reason to run a toxicology screen on him.  In fact, because he was a minor, his parents should have been consulted before an autopsy was even performed and frankly, if it were my kid, I would have refused the autopsy because the cause of death was pretty fwcking obvious. 

epphd

mysticporter:

epphd:

To be honest, I really feel like people who are "trying to see both sides" and who "don't want to jump to a conclusion of racism" are really just trying to excuse the white guy and blame the black guy. I think many people in this category don't even realize it, but really are just much more comfortable with the worldview that the black guy deserved it and the white guy is the hero.  It's just harder to swallow that yes, racism is alive, well, and pretty much abundantly clear here.  And no one is doing anything about it in Sanford.

I don't think that's entirely fair.  My personal opinion on this case is that racism was absolutely why Zimmerman following Martin.  I also think it's important to realize that Zimmerman may not be an overt, stereotypical racist.  He may have lots of black friends, and he may not consciously judge people based on being black.  That doesn't mean he didn't react differently because Martin was black, and that, I think, is a really, really important point.  I think there's a sh!tload more people than are willing to admit who may even be vocally anti-racist and still do the cross-the-street-look-who's-coming thing, and not even consciously, they just may find certain people to be "more scary looking".

I think anyone who can't see that is a dumbass that doesn't understand that racism takes many forms.  I don't think it's obvious that anyone who questions if the whole story is out yet must be waiting for a reason to blame the black guy, though, at least if they have the same amount of skepticism for any heavily reported shock value story.

The bolded is a more example-based and perhaps better way of saying what I was trying to.  I'm sorry that you're offended, AW - I wasn't actually trying to call YOU out. I'm actually speaking about people like my brother, who is not consciously racIST but who is not race blind.  Neither am I, in that race is something that I immediately notice, particularly in a very white city. I think oftentimes we leap to conclusions that upon close examination we might not be proud of.

And AW, your point that there is a group mentality on this board is, honestly, a fair one.  I think you are right on, in many cases.  I don't think that means that the majority is always following blindly, but I think that my opinion can sometimes be influenced by a large number of people I respect coalescing around a conclusion.  that said, one reason I love it here is because I can read differing opinions. I feel more informed for having done so, and like you, have actually changed my tune on some pretty important issues as a result.  

I think the best news about this whole thing though is that we are having a conversation, in a respectful way (at least so far, I haven't finished reading this thread!), about an issue that is tough to talk about and that we, as a nation, need to talk about.

 

Dylanite

LaPiscine:

+adamwife+:

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

I think it's a standard part of an autopsy, isn't it?

Not unless you don't know the cause of death.  So unless the coroner was standing around like, "Yeah, there's a big gaping gun shot to his chest, but we don't know.  If CSI has taught us anything, it's that that wound could have been postmortem.  Better test him for a drug overdose.  Also lets see if we can match the paint under his finger nails to one of the neighborhood houses by using a non-existent computer program that will tell us exactly what color the paint was and how many people in FL have used that color on their house.  Dun dun dahhhhh."

No.  There was no reason to run a toxicology screen on him.  In fact, because he was a minor, his parents should have been consulted before an autopsy was even performed and frankly, if it were my kid, I would have refused the autopsy because the cause of death was pretty fwcking obvious. 

Unless of course, due to GZ saying on the 911 tape Tray appeared to be on drugs they were trying to presume Tray was out of his mind, high on something (NOT weed, fuucks), giving GZ a benefit of any doubt Tray was the primary aggressor.

Of course. 

LaPiscine

Dylanite:

LaPiscine:

+adamwife+:

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

I think it's a standard part of an autopsy, isn't it?

Not unless you don't know the cause of death.  So unless the coroner was standing around like, "Yeah, there's a big gaping gun shot to his chest, but we don't know.  If CSI has taught us anything, it's that that wound could have been postmortem.  Better test him for a drug overdose.  Also lets see if we can match the paint under his finger nails to one of the neighborhood houses by using a non-existent computer program that will tell us exactly what color the paint was and how many people in FL have used that color on their house.  Dun dun dahhhhh."

No.  There was no reason to run a toxicology screen on him.  In fact, because he was a minor, his parents should have been consulted before an autopsy was even performed and frankly, if it were my kid, I would have refused the autopsy because the cause of death was pretty fwcking obvious. 

Unless of course, due to GZ saying on the 911 tape Tray appeared to be on drugs they were trying to presume Tray was out of his mind, high on something (NOT weed, fuucks), giving GZ a benefit of any doubt Tray was the primary aggressor.

Of course. 

If they did a toxicology screen without also doing an analysis of the wound to determine which point was exit and which point was entry, I will have to fwcking throw something.  I think the police conduct towards this case is getting frighteningly close to a Section 1983 deliberate indifference standard.  I'm still stunned that they only attempted chest compressions on this kid for about 5 minutes and never made any attempts with a defibrillator.  They pronounced him on the scene something like 17 minutes after 911 dispatched the cops.  That's appalling to me.  Appalling.  I've spent more time than that trying to figure out what to order at Burger King.

soontobeka

Has Zimmerman's attorney said anything since the video aired?

Dylanite

soontobeka:

Has Zimmerman's attorney said anything since the video aired?

From iPhone, hope format isn't funky. 

 Zimmerman Attorney: Police Video Too Grainy

BRIAN HAMACHER03/29/2012 1:10 PM
The attorney for George Zimmerman said Thursday that a Sanford Police video taken hours after the neighborhood watch volunteer shot and killed Miami teen Trayvon Martin may be too grainy to show the injuries he sustained at the hands of the teen.

Attorney Craig Sonner, appearing onNBC's "Today Show" Thursday, says thevideo released by Sanford Police Wednesday neither refutes or backs up Zimmerman's claims that he was left bloodied and with a broken nose after an altercation with the 17-year-old.Click here to watch the police surveillance video. 

"It's a very grainy video, I do however, if you watch, you'll see one of the officers, as he's walking in, looking at something on the back of his head," Sonner said. "The video is very grainy, and I'm not sure that it has, as far as being able to see the injuries that were recently sustained and then later cleaned up, clearly the report shows he was cleaned up before he was taken in the squad car."

The video shows a handcuffed Zimmerman being escorted from a police cruiser and into Sanford Police headquarters just hours after the deadly encounter with Martin in a gated community on Feb. 26.

The Miami Gardens teen was visiting with his father at his father's girlfriend's home in the gated community and had gone to buy a bag of Skittles and iced tea at a nearby convenience store and was walking back when the shooting happened.

Though Martin was unarmed, Zimmerman told police the shooting was self-defense, and no charges have been filed in the case.

Zimmerman told police he had been following Martin but was walking back to his car when the teen approached him from behind, punched him in the face, got on top of him while he was on the ground and started bashing his head into the sidewalk.

Police said Zimmerman had a bloody nose, gash on the back of his head and grass stains on the back of his shirt. Sonner said Zimmerman's nose was broken by Martin.

The Martin family says the teen was not the aggressor. 

"All the other evidence clearly contradicts everything George Zimmerman has said," Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump said Wednesday. "America has now listened to those 911 tapes with their ears and now they see this video tonight with their eyes and it's clear that what was in that police report was a fabrication." 

When asked Thursday whether there were any photos or x-rays that could prove Zimmerman's injuries, Sonner didn't indicate if any existed.

"Even with all the evidence that's coming out, I'm not gonna litigate this case in the media," Sonner said.

Meanwhile, late Wednesday, Zimmerman's father spoke out for the first time since the shooting, supporting his son's self-defense claim and saying Martin confronted the 28-year-old as he was walking back to his car.

Robert Zimmerman, in an interview with WOFL Fox 35 in Orlando, said his son was suspicious because of several break-ins and thought it was strange for someone to be walking between the town homes on a rainy night.

He said that despite 911 dispatchers telling his son to stop following Martin, he kept going so he could get an address for police to check.

The elder Zimmerman also backed up Zimmerman's claim that Martin broke his nose, knocked him to the concrete and started beating him.

"Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of 'you're gonna die now' or 'you're gonna die tonight,'" Robert Zimmerman said. "He continued to beat George, and at some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did."

He also said screams for help heard in 911 calls were his son, a claim refuted by Crump and the Martin family, who claim the screams were coming from the teen.

Sonner said he wasn't consulted on whether Zimmerman's father would be speaking with the media.

"I suppose he stayed quiet as long as he could and then had to tell his side of the story," Sonner said.

The shooting has led to several marches and protests throughout South Florida and across the country, as Martin's family and supporters demand Zimmerman's arrest.

Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, who has temporarily stepped down pending the investigation into the shooting, had said there was no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman, citing the state's "Stand Your Ground" law.

Florida Gov. Rick Scott has appointed a special prosecutor to oversee the investigation into Martin's death. The FBI and U.S. Justice Department are also investigating the shooting.

Pescalita

+adamwife+:

I think that what I have come out of this post with, after learning a little more about the case, is that I should be more outraged with the police department for not doing their job properly.  I hope that if anything, not only will this situation cause us as a nation to look into the subconscious biases we have about race, but also hold police departments more accountable for the work they do.  Hopefully if this happens Trayvon didn't die in vain. 

To be clear about my previous question on court of public opinion, ITA with Chilly & ESF. I didn't mean to say we shouldn't be, I mean to say the courts should.  

tartaruga

MeredithE:

mrsbecky07:

Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on.  So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.

HOLD THE MOTHER PHONE!!! How did I miss this?? They tested him for drugs?????  Tell me this is common. Please? Tell me toxicology testing and reports are done to every single body that ends up in the morgue.

According to H this is standard procedure when there is a homicide.

Sibil

But, it's also SOP to alcohol/drug test the shooter, right?  And they didn't do that.