A Past & Present 3T-er Discussion

amandaf6383 · November 2013

MadeOfAwesome said:

amandaf6383 said:

So would ovulation inducing meds and/or injects be 3T and any procedure needed (IUI/IVF/Donor Sperm/Eggs/etc) would then qualify as infertility?

I guess not necessarily... I think maybe going through all of those procedures and still not having them work would qualify as IF.

That makes sense.

saralynn7 · November 2013

To go along with infertile vs 3T I'd agree that there is a difference. I needed medical assistance to become pregnant but I didn't require invasive procedures. I feel that my needing Clomid is on a much smaller scale than IUI or IVF. I can't know what that feels like but I can at least relate to feeling like you're unable to do what your body is supposed to be able to do.

LuckyAngel07 · November 2013

amandaf6383 said:

MadeOfAwesome said:

amandaf6383 said:

So would ovulation inducing meds and/or injects be 3T and any procedure needed (IUI/IVF/Donor Sperm/Eggs/etc) would then qualify as infertility?

I guess not necessarily... I think maybe going through all of those procedures and still not having them work would qualify as IF.

That makes sense.

I disagree. I think if someone is at the point the drs say they have slim chances of getting pregnant on their own and need to do IVF or they need to use donor sperm or eggs (obviously meaning their own sperm or eggs won't work), I would call that IF. Whether they go through IVF and get pregnant or not, getting to the point of needing IVF = IF to me. Heck, I think even to some degree needing IUI qualifies as IF, since that typically means there are sperm quality issues at play and they're less likely to get the job done through TI.

I agree that longer/irregular cycles with later ovulation creates 3T, but does not equate to IF. I don't have any sort of IF diagnosis for myself, so while we're 3T, I don't consider us IF yet (I want more info on DH's sperm quality results before I go blindly accepting the lab's confusing report, which I'll get whenever I work up the courage to start calling REs).

amccul20 · November 2013

As i'm watching this whole converstation unfold I feel like I need to say that its so hard to judge if someone still 'gets it' after getting their BFP. as I mentioned before, of course a BFP changes you, but that doesn't mean that your feeling surrounding 3T or infertility just go away. and to say that you think someone doesn't get it anymore isn't really fair. who are we to judge? (i'm not calling anyone out, just saying) you can never truly know whats in someone elses heart and how how deeply they were effected by whatever they went through.

MadeOfAwesome · November 2013

Although, technically, if you google my diagnosis, it says that it's IF, but I still don't consider it that

carcrashheart · November 2013

i respectfully do not agree with your definition of IF, MOA, but that's really not what the debate is here. for me, the bitterness only went away temporarily while i was pregnant. and even then it didn't really go away, i could just refocus myself and be grateful. so when i tell someone i know how they feel, i really do know how they feel. i know how it feels to be truly unsure of whether or not there will be a family. just because i *only* needed meds doesn't mean i didn't feel deep down that we would need to go farther than that and that even those options might not work. and the older LO has gotten the more i have felt myself slip back in to my old IF frame of mind. and maybe your friend is wanting another child (maybe not, i have no idea, i don't know her details but i'm sure you do). we have been TTC #2 since december with obviously no luck. we're right back where we started, pre-LO, and have to return to the RE. that brings a lot of bitterness and it's hard because it's not ungratefulness, but it's easy to come off that way. so, yeah, i think your friend was being genuine and there's no need to be all "but HOW could she even KNOOOOWWWW" because really, she does know. just because she has a baby now doesn't mean her struggles have been erased from her memory. those memories are burned upon us. take comfort in the fact that she is one of the very few that does actually understand you.

amandaf6383 · November 2013

amccul20 said:

As i'm watching this whole converstation unfold I feel like I need to say that its so hard to judge if someone still 'gets it' after getting their BFP. as I mentioned before, of course a BFP changes you, but that doesn't mean that your feeling surrounding 3T or infertility just go away. and to say that you think someone doesn't get it anymore isn't really fair. who are we to judge? (i'm not calling anyone out, just saying) you can never truly know whats in someone elses heart and how how deeply they were effected by whatever they went through.

So I both agree and disagree with different aspects of this.

First, I absolutely agree that no one should judge others. If there is anything I've learned from this journey, it is that everyone's journey is different. However, I do think there is absolutely a difference once someone gives birth. No matter how hard the journey was, once you have a baby in your arms, you can't feel the same fear of never being a mother, which (IMO) is one of the toughest parts/fears of 3T/IF, so in that way you can't really "get it" anymore.

seahorse01 · November 2013

i respectfully do not agree with your definition of IF, MOA, but that's really not what the debate is here. for me, the bitterness only went away temporarily while i was pregnant. and even then it didn't really go away, i could just refocus myself and be grateful. so when i tell someone i know how they feel, i really do know how they feel. i know how it feels to be truly unsure of whether or not there will be a family. just because i *only* needed meds doesn't mean i didn't feel deep down that we would need to go farther than that and that even those options might not work. and the older LO has gotten the more i have felt myself slip back in to my old IF frame of mind. and maybe your friend is wanting another child (maybe not, i have no idea, i don't know her details but i'm sure you do). we have been TTC #2 since december with obviously no luck. we're right back where we started, pre-LO, and have to return to the RE. that brings a lot of bitterness and it's hard because it's not ungratefulness, but it's easy to come off that way. so, yeah, i think your friend was being genuine and there's no need to be all "but HOW could she even KNOOOOWWWW" because really, she does know. just because she has a baby now doesn't mean her struggles have been erased from her memory. those memories are burned upon us. take comfort in the fact that she is one of the very few that does actually understand you.

Two things:

1. No.

2. Why am I seeing your post when I have you blocked? @nestcayla WHY?

Panderp · November 2013

I think I take more problem with the "I know how you feel". If you get a happy ending, no matter how damn long or hard you worked there, you don't get it anymore. You might have before, but you don't any longer. They used to know how you felt.

No one knows exactly how you feel unless they are you. Those words are incredibly useless and often used as a filler when someone doesn't know what to say. I'd rather touch someone's hand or say, "I am so sorry that you even have to think of these things, or that you have to experience this."

I often have the experience of feeling very competitive with my grief. No one will know how horrible my heart hurt after my experience. Not a single person. Not even my husband. People can assume it hurt terribly, but they won't know. I will adopt a child, so I will know a happy ending. I will no longer be able to "know" how other couples feel when they are faced with being childless. I just simply won't. I will remember what it felt like to contemplate that, but I will no longer know. I also got to feel what it was like to be pregnant-- so I can not say that I know how it feels to never experience a biological child. Sure it wasn't what I had hoped it would be, but my experience is not the same as someone who has never been pregnant.

I think the short of this is that pretending to understand another's struggle or journey is never helpful. A simple "I am so sorry that your heart is touched by this kind of grief. I hope that you find peace along the way" is a lot better than minimizing with an, "I know! OMG it sucks, right?!"

MRads · November 2013

islandmonkey8 said:
I think that I just don't like it when people in general say "I know how you feel". IMO even if you have been through or are currently going through the exact same thing, you never know how that person is feeling. Everyone handles things differently, obviously some better than others.

I prefer if people give advice or just say they're sorry or something instead of trying to say they feel the same. I just don't think anyone can possibly feel the exact same way about something as the next person.

I think you might have hit on to something. My BFF and I would get into fights all the time bc she hates it when people say that they know how you feel and I hate it when people feel isolated in their situation. I guess you should steer clear of saying you know how somebody feels, even if you are going through or have gone through a similar situation. But it is my nature to want people to feel included.

It took 14 months of ttc to have B. I am so grateful that it a while, bc I never would have sought out this community or gained the insight and wisdom of this group. Even though I was never 3T, I became close with a lot of 3Ters. I had a lot of feelings Seahorsey described bc I didn't want to move on without my friends and I wish they could have fully joined me in my journey.

I'm rambling. I don't even belong in this thread bc I'm not nor never was 3t. I just really appreciate what each of you have brought into my life and I'm so grateful and humbled that you all have shared your journeys with me. I really have been challenged on my perspective and worldview from many of you and I think (at least hope) it has made me a more compassionate person.

Panderp · November 2013

carcrashheart said:

i respectfully do not agree with your definition of IF, MOA, but that's really not what the debate is here. for me, the bitterness only went away temporarily while i was pregnant. and even then it didn't really go away, i could just refocus myself and be grateful. so when i tell someone i know how they feel, i really do know how they feel. i know how it feels to be truly unsure of whether or not there will be a family. just because i *only* needed meds doesn't mean i didn't feel deep down that we would need to go farther than that and that even those options might not work. and the older LO has gotten the more i have felt myself slip back in to my old IF frame of mind. and maybe your friend is wanting another child (maybe not, i have no idea, i don't know her details but i'm sure you do). we have been TTC #2 since december with obviously no luck. we're right back where we started, pre-LO, and have to return to the RE. that brings a lot of bitterness and it's hard because it's not ungratefulness, but it's easy to come off that way. so, yeah, i think your friend was being genuine and there's no need to be all "but HOW could she even KNOOOOWWWW" because really, she does know. just because she has a baby now doesn't mean her struggles have been erased from her memory. those memories are burned upon us. take comfort in the fact that she is one of the very few that does actually understand you.

CCH. I just adore how you can be bitter about being bitter.

No one does it like you, dear. NO ONE.

rebaann · November 2013

seahorse01 said:

Having success after being 3T brings a whole new set of worries. Will my old 3T friends still want to talk to me? Will I hurt their feelings if I post on FB? It isn't an easy position to be in, even if you do get your baby at the end. It's complex and something that Resolve posts about a lot. It can be really isolating when you've spent years in a group that has one thing in common. Suddenly you don't fit in anymore. It's hard.

This is what I feel a lot of the time, which is why I don't come around here very often any more. I don't post as actively in a FB group I'm part of because I worry that being there is hurtful to some and I feel like they have formed a very tight bond with me on the outside.

amccul20 · November 2013

amandaf6383 said:

amccul20 said:

As i'm watching this whole converstation unfold I feel like I need to say that its so hard to judge if someone still 'gets it' after getting their BFP. as I mentioned before, of course a BFP changes you, but that doesn't mean that your feeling surrounding 3T or infertility just go away. and to say that you think someone doesn't get it anymore isn't really fair. who are we to judge? (i'm not calling anyone out, just saying) you can never truly know whats in someone elses heart and how how deeply they were effected by whatever they went through.

So I both agree and disagree with different aspects of this.

First, I absolutely agree that no one should judge others. If there is anything I've learned from this journey, it is that everyone's journey is different. However, I do think there is absolutely a difference once someone gives birth. No matter how hard the journey was, once you have a baby in your arms, you can't feel the same fear of never being a mother, which (IMO) is one of the toughest parts/fears of 3T/IF, so in that way you can't really "get it" anymore.

I agree that the once you have a child you won't ever feel that intense pain/worry/hurt surrounding the possibly never being able to have a child....but you can remember that feeling and empathize with someone. I think in that situation there would be nothing wrong with trying to comfort someone and say I understand what you're going through, if you've been in that position why can't you say that? I'm certain there is a right time/way to say it, and it some situations nothing should be said at all.

Panderp · November 2013

I just do not understand how a person who gets a family in the end can look someone whose family is unachieved and uncertain in the face and say, "I know how you feel."

Are you fortune tellers? Do you really know exactly how that person feels? Would you say that, baby in arms, to someone who is childless forever? Why would you say that when you don't know how their story will end then? What purpose does that sentiment serve?

Does. Not. Compute.

I'm LOLing at the pregnants/moms insisting they know. I mean, LOL people. I do not even know how they feel. And if I don't... you don't.

MadeOfAwesome · November 2013

The way I see it, is that I will NEVER know what another person is feeling. I could be in the EXACT same situation as someone else, but each person processes things differently so to say "I know how you feel" is kind of a dickish thing to say.

lilliesandvino · November 2013

The first thing that any counselor learns in school is to never, ever, under any circumstances utter the phrase "I know how you feel".

You don't know, you can't know, and it will never be received the way you intend it.

caseyandlizzie · November 2013

seahorse01 said:

Having success after being 3T brings a whole new set of worries. Will my old 3T friends still want to talk to me? Will I hurt their feelings if I post on FB? It isn't an easy position to be in, even if you do get your baby at the end. It's complex and something that Resolve posts about a lot. It can be really isolating when you've spent years in a group that has one thing in common. Suddenly you don't fit in anymore. It's hard.

All of this. I know for me, I try to be sensitive about sharing about W, especially in a FB group I'm in. I definitely have some bitterness towards those who haven't struggled, and hate being blindsided with surprise announcements even though I'm on the other side of things now. I don't forget the feelings I had, and can sympathize with those who are struggling, but I also have no idea what it's like to be faced with having to make certain decisions regarding iui and ivf, adoption. I can't pretend to know what that's like. There's a way to be supportive without shoving your success in someone's face, and I think sometimes people forget that or are ignorant to that fact.

saralynn7 · November 2013

I'm reading through responses and trying to find ones where several people specifically say they will know how others feel about 3T/infertility. I'm not finding many. There's a big difference between remembering your own feelings and struggles vs being able to correctly say "I know how you feel". I can empathize, but never know how someone else feels. Maybe I just wasn't saying it specifically enough?

amccul20 · November 2013

I feel like some of the last comments were directed at my last comment. and I want to clarify that I didn't say that I would say to someone, "I know how you feel". clearly I couldn't have any idea what someone is feeling.

what I said and I don't see a problem with saying is, "I understand what you're going through." meaning IF and 3T, if its the right situation.

I've been though IVF, IUI's, testing, counseling and if someone was struggling and they were openly talking to me about it I don't think that there is anything wrong with letting someone else know that you've been through it and can kind of understand where they're coming from.

PinkinProvence · November 2013

I still consider myself infertile. I still refer to myself as infertile in conversations. I still am bitter when I hear an announcement where I suspect it was an easy conception. The tears start forming when I think of the moment I got the phone call at work telling me my test results. The wounds are still fresh of crying myself to sleep on the bathroom floor or driving around sobbing because I didn't want DH to have to watch it daily.

And flameworthy and I know not rational or right, I feel that sometimes my pregnancy is somehow, more important or precious than my friends' pregnancies because it is a "miracle" and my "one shot" of ever becoming a mother. I know in my heart that further treatment would never work for us and we were blessed with this miracle once. It is a scary and unhealthy onus to put on myself.

That being said, I am fully aware that my story (hopefully) has a happy ending so I am not allowed to grieve or be as bitter as those who are currently going through it. I do think, however, that I do know what a current TTT is going through and can not only sympathize but empathize because I remember and know those feelings all too well. Maybe this is flameworthy, but kind of like a cancer survivor (I am fully aware I was never in danger of death and it is not the same).

BioGirl21 · November 2013

I agree with others that the problems lies within the phrase "I know how you feel". There is a way to empathize with someone and not use that phrase. I will never know how someone else feels about their situation, even if I was in the exact same situation before. Being 3T was hard and turned me into a person I didn't recognize at times and I can still remember the pain and hurt that I felt the whole time. Looking back at that time still makes me sad and bitter. Heck, I still feel like that when I hear about how easy someone had it getting pregnant or sometimes when I see a pregnant person randomly. And it pains me to know that seeing my growing bump might be hurting some random woman that sees me in the store. But I will never know how another person feels, ever.
I do think that some people choose to forget what they went through and become the people they used to hate. I have a friend that tried for almost 2 years and got pregnant. Now she is one of the people that I used to hate to see on Facebook, posting pictures of her kid every day, multiple times. I strive to remember that feeling and keep my posting minimal, and even then, when I announced on FB I acknowledged that we had tried for 20 months, and that our A/S was the day after what would have been 2 years of trying. I never want to forget our struggle getting pregnant. I think it made me a stronger person and brought MH and I closer.

PinkinProvence · November 2013

I want to add - I would never say to anyone "I know how you feel" about anything really. In general, that just takes away the feelings that someone is entitled to have. But I would hope that I could be helpful and understanding during a vent session and could empathize more than a person who never struggled.

Amanda, this is a great topic! Thanks.

poppies717 · November 2013

Great thread. This has been an interesting read.

My therapist told me during my first session that 3T would have a lasting impact, but each stage has significantly unique struggles. I absolutely believe that 3T grads do remember the pain, but I assume it's not as intense as the pain I currently feel.

I recognize that I am super bitter and competitive about pain, like @panderp wrote about in a PP. I think this stems from my relationship with my ILs, as I feel like screaming, "We have to do IVF! Are we infertile enough now?!" at them.

Something must change as soon as that second line shows up. We have seen women run off to GPM and never return. I don't know if it's because they feel like they're no longer welcome (a thread hashed this out a few months ago), or if they just want to separate themselves from the 3T journey.

My goal is to be like Bruins when (not if!) I get pregnant.

amandaf6383 · November 2013

poppies717 said:

\
Something must change as soon as that second line shows up. We have seen women run off to GPM and never return. I don't know if it's because they feel like they're no longer welcome (a thread hashed this out a few months ago), or if they just want to separate themselves from the 3T journey.

This is an interesting theory. I often wonder why so many run away and never come back, either to GPM or off the boards completely. Some women I would NEVER think would bolt do. Sometimes I feel, like you stated, they feel that they're no longer welcome. Some I think just don't have a use for us anymore.

CincodeMayoLove · November 2013

Okay a couple more additions as the conversation goes on. 1st: I do solemnly swear to never say "I know how you feel" again. About any matter. I hate it when people say "I know I know" when they clearly do not know, but didn't realize "I know how you feel" was in the same category. I find/found comfort when people say/said that to me because IF feels so lonely. It's nice to know someone has felt what I am feeling and can over come. True they never exactly feel how I feel at the same moment I am feeling, but nice to know you're not alone.. As an over all happy person, that is known to all irl for being happy, it really fucked with my head to be down 23/7 and have a hard time being truly happen. I took comfort knowing others "know how I feel" about being optimistic, but worried about Lu sticking. But that being said. I'm a weirdo with things like that, so if general consensus is don't say it, then I won't. GP has spoken.

2nd: what @seahorse01 said about fitting in after pg really struck home with me. There was one point during IVF that I actually stayed up worrying "what if this works and the bitters no longer want to talk to me and joke with me". I worried I couldn't continue to be the fiesty negative nancy I've become because they would know. I decided that those bitches are stuck with me. I may always fart rainbows and puppies, but that's not changed before/after pregnancy. I love you guys and I've told you before you've truly changed my life. Seahorsey.... This comment of your understanding made my heart so very happy. Thank you for posting.

amandaf6383 · November 2013

carcrashheart said:

so, yeah, i think your friend was being genuine and there's no need to be all "but HOW could she even KNOOOOWWWW" because really, she does know. take comfort in the fact that she is one of the very few that does actually understand you.

Wow. This is so offensive on many levels, starting with indicating that I was being in any way whiny. And, really, she doesn't know. And you don't know. Because you have a baby. Whether or not you're having issues TTC #2, which from the bottom of my heart I'm sorry about, it doesn't mean you know. No matter what, you have your happy ending.

LooneyLife · November 2013

So many of you have already shared such amazingly thoughtful sentiments and I don't have anything to add that would come close to even making sense. So I'll just quote the ever-wise MTV :P
"You think you know...but you have no idea"

poppies717 · November 2013

carcrashheart said:

i respectfully do not agree with your definition of IF, MOA, but that's really not what the debate is here. for me, the bitterness only went away temporarily while i was pregnant. and even then it didn't really go away, i could just refocus myself and be grateful. so when i tell someone i know how they feel, i really do know how they feel. i know how it feels to be truly unsure of whether or not there will be a family. just because i *only* needed meds doesn't mean i didn't feel deep down that we would need to go farther than that and that even those options might not work. and the older LO has gotten the more i have felt myself slip back in to my old IF frame of mind. and maybe your friend is wanting another child (maybe not, i have no idea, i don't know her details but i'm sure you do). we have been TTC #2 since december with obviously no luck. we're right back where we started, pre-LO, and have to return to the RE. that brings a lot of bitterness and it's hard because it's not ungratefulness, but it's easy to come off that way. so, yeah, i think your friend was being genuine and there's no need to be all "but HOW could she even KNOOOOWWWW" because really, she does know. just because she has a baby now doesn't mean her struggles have been erased from her memory. those memories are burned upon us. take comfort in the fact that she is one of the very few that does actually understand you.

I respectfully disagree with this. TTC#2 is absolutely heartbreaking. I sympathize with that. The picture of your family you've had for a long time is not complete, and TTTC threatens that dream. I get it. But it is definitely not the same as the fear and worry that you'll never even be able to have one.

LittleLady77 · November 2013

PinkinProvence said:

I still consider myself infertile. I still refer to myself as infertile in conversations. I still am bitter when I hear an announcement where I suspect it was an easy conception. The tears start forming when I think of the moment I got the phone call at work telling me my test results. The wounds are still fresh of crying myself to sleep on the bathroom floor or driving around sobbing because I didn't want DH to have to watch it daily.

And flameworthy and I know not rational or right, I feel that sometimes my pregnancy is somehow, more important or precious than my friends' pregnancies because it is a "miracle" and my "one shot" of ever becoming a mother. I know in my heart that further treatment would never work for us and we were blessed with this miracle once. It is a scary and unhealthy onus to put on myself.

That being said, I am fully aware that my story (hopefully) has a happy ending so I am not allowed to grieve or be as bitter as those who are currently going through it. I do think, however, that I do know what a current TTT is going through and can not only sympathize but empathize because I remember and know those feelings all too well. Maybe this is flameworthy, but kind of like a cancer survivor (I am fully aware I was never in danger of death and it is not the same).

Well said Pink. I feel the same way (except maybe the one shot thing). I will certainly always consider myself infertile. I will never be able to have bio children. I will always wonder what a child from my DNA would have been like.

Every journey is different. I have never experienced a miscarriage. I don't know what that's like. I also never had success with my own eggs- that will always be a biggy. I would find it pretty annoying if someone who had been trying for a year came to me and said I didn't understand what infertility was like... I understand and I tried for 3 years! The same goes for someone who got pregnant with one round of clomid. That being said, I will never understand the EXACT journey any one person has had and they will never understand mine... but I think we can mutually agree that we know what infertility is like, just at different levels.

I think the big difference is that I remember the pain, I'm not feeling it now. I stand behind saying that living through infertility was the hardest time of my life (not waking up from a comma, or dealing with deaths in the family... infertility wins). I would never take that away from someone who is currently going through the pain... it's indescribable and I get that.

tdmd09 · November 2013

I think the phrase "I know how you feel" is pretty non-therapeutic in any context. However, I think the sentiment behind it (not when people are being ridiculous, but when they are trying to empathize) is not 100% negated if someone is pregnant or is a parent after a 3T journey.

I felt like I fit into the 3T category because I had two miscarriages, and the pain from my losses has never gone away. I still have reminders of what I have lost every time I see my best friend's son who was born on my first baby's due date. He reminds me of how old my first child would have been, and what milestones he'd be tackling in that moment. And it hurts. People (who hadn't had losses) told me that somehow when I had a baby in my arms that that pain would go away because if I hadn't lost those babies, I wouldn't have L, but they didn't know what they were talking about, and I still hurt.

I don't feel like my ability to understand someone's pain who has gone through similar hardships has been erased just because I've had a baby. I can still vividly hear the doctor's voice telling me that my first pregnancy was "doomed to fail." I can see the ultrasound of my second baby when they tried to find a heart beat and it was no longer there. I remember waking up after my second D&C and crying in my sleep and hearing the nurse tell my husband to hold my hand. I remember the fear, the heartache, the loneliness, the despair. It's all incredibly fresh and real to me. Because of that, I feel like I can say to people going through a loss that even though I may not have had the exact same experience, and I do not know exactly what is going through their minds, I at least understand their feelings in a way someone else does not that hasn't gone through a loss.

I think that's the difference. I never felt like anyone "knew" how I felt, but I desperately wanted someone to "understand." I hope that makes some sense.

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