Million Student March

hoffse · November 2015

Many students are marching today, with the following demands: 1) Forgiveness of student loan debt; 2) Free public college tuition; 3) $15/hour minimum wage on campus.

I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

I watched the clip with Cavuto questioning one of the organizers on how they would pay for it, and her answer was the 1%. He pointed out that even if you taxed the 1% at 100%, there wouldn't be enough money to pay for what they want. Seriously, it was kind of painful to watch. I pretty much winced the entire time.

I think the problem lies in the federal government being willing to lend a virtually unlimited amount of money to 18-year-olds who have no credit and no assets to secure the debt. Colleges then see this guaranteed source of money and start raising rates. If the federal government would cap student loans, colleges would be pricing themselves out and would have to slow the growth or (miracle of miracles) reduce tuition costs.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much (though Cavuto pointed it out) is that the 1% has an escape plan. People forget that they have the resources, education, and earning potential to go pretty much anywhere in the world. If tax rates get too high, they will take their money and investments elsewhere. France and Greece has learned that lesson the hard way.

I'll be totally honest and say that H and I have an escape plan if taxes get too high for us personally. We have debated the exact number, but it would probably be around 65-70%.

short+sassy · November 2015

I don't know a lot about student loans, but from what I understand from reading on these boards, there already is forgiveness of student loans after a long period of time under certain circumstances. Sounds about right to me. But a broader forgiveness of student debt? Hell no. If people want to go to private colleges, they can pay for it themselves or take out student loans.

Public colleges are already a substantially cheaper alternative. That's why I came out of college without having any loans. I realize some students even at public colleges need to take out student loans, but it will still be for a much lesser amount. And if they become free, like they already are in some countries, then I have even less tolerance for forgiveness of student loans.

I'm not sure how I feel about free public college tuition. I am tentatively for it. I think it will reap major benefits for our country in the future. But then I'm worried about the abuse or the "8-year" BA/BS students who wander around from major to major because they don't know what they want to do and aren't too worried about it. 1-2 years of wandering are okay, but I don't want to give free tuition to perpetual students. Of course, I'm sure limits could be put in place also.

Minimum wage absolutely should be raised because it hasn't kept pace with inflation. Not even close. But to $15/hr is ridiculous. I figured it out like 6 months ago...so this figure may not be 100% accurate...but I think a keeping up with inflation minimum wage raise is $10.64/hour. Quite frankly, I live in a somewhat LCOL area and most fast food places already pay $9/hour. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it is less at college campuses.

Xstatic3333 · November 2015

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the student loan situation, @hoffse. I've mentioned this before, but this is a huge reason why I don't give to my undergrad alma mater right now. I think it's obscene that they are taking so much borrowed money and using it to build shiny dorms while the majority of undergrad classes are still taught by grad students (not that they aren't often great teachers). I'd be in favor of capping the amounts that can be borrowed. My only concern is that predatory private lenders might step in to fill in the gap.

I'm irritated with the calls for blanket student debt forgiveness; frankly it just sounds petty and whiny. I'm fine with existing forgiveness programs, though some of them could be tweaked a bit, and think those are enough of a safety net. I'd also like to see federal refinancing options to reward good borrowers.

As for making public colleges free, I'm not necessarily against it but there would need to be a way to pay for it that makes sense. I am more in favor of how some states handle it where it is free for students in the top Xth percentile of their high school graduating class, or similar. I think this might be an issue that is better handled on a state-by-state basis as opposed to a national mandate. I know that in my own state, the flagship public university is raising tuition by 10% or more a year lately and bringing itself out of reach for many middle class families. I would be willing to see some of my own tax money go toward keeping costs in line. I got my Masters at that school, and would consider giving to them because I do see money being used efficiently there, with a priority on hiring and retaining quality professors who are focused on teaching as well as research.

On the minimum wage issue I pretty agree with @short+sassy. It needs to go up, but I don't think $15.00 nationwide is necessarily good policy given that wide variations in cost of living. It may need to be that high in some major cities, but not everywhere. I do get a bit stabby about the argument that "if you want to make more you should have made ______ life choice" that is so frequently paraded around in the media. Our current education system doesn't given people equal opportunities and guidance to make the best career decisions, but I think that people willing to work hard at a full time job or jobs should be able to keep a roof over their head and feed their families. I don't believe raising the minimum wage would be a jobs killer, and I think I've read some case studies that back that up.

That aside, none of these issues are what I want to see our nation's college students mobilizing about right now. Our country is facing much greater problems.

julieanne912 · November 2015

As someone who decided to go for an arts education, and am still paying for it even though I don't use my education at all in my career, I think it's a bit ridiculous.

Now, I do think there could be some reform to help students out a bit more with low interest rates on loans at least... like maybe a cap on private student loans. When I had to start paying back my private loans, my rate was like 16%... for no reason. I had credit cards with lower rates than that. I always paid above the minimums, and on time/early. Again, there was NO reason to charge that kind of rate. Thankfully I had a good job so I was able to refinance and consolidate the loans, but I'm still paying something like 5-6% (Just went down because I went 4 years without missing a payment). But not all students a year or two out of school have a job, let alone a well paying one, that would allow them to do what I did 10 years ago. Nowadays with my reduced income, I just pay the minimum, which is $225/mo, and that covers interest. My balance has barely gone down, and I've been out of school for 10 years. I think that's ridiculous. I fully believe that the private loan companies take advantage of the students, and their unawareness of what exactly they're signing up for. It's a bit predatory in my opinion.

My federal loans are 1.88%, which to me is pretty much nothing and I've already paid those down by half, just by paying the minimum payment, which is a reasonable amount.

I looked into going back to school a few years ago to finish a degree in something useful, but even at a public university in California, with all the transfer credits I would have, it would have taken me 3 more years and quite a bit more money. When I started college in 2000, my tuition at that same university was $900 TOTAL a semester (and yes I realize now that it was stupid to leave that school to go to design school). It's easily triple or quadruple that now (which I realize is still cheap). Plus classes are harder to get because of reduced staff and overcrowding, so it takes longer to finish, which means it costs more money.

Lastly, this is sort of related, I think there should be less emphasis on college educations for everyone. In hindsight, I realized I just like to work. If I hadn't been pushed SO hard in high school by everyone, I probably could have benefitted from just going to work after high school and figuring out what I wanted to do for a few years, instead of wasting money going to college right off the bat, because that was what you were "supposed" to do. I think adding back in more technical training in high schools, or bigger pushes for technical schools/apprenticeships would be a huge benefit. Not everyone is cut out for college, so they need to stop acting like that's the only viable option after high school.

Don't even get me started on the $15/hour minimum wage.... it's complete and utter horseshit. Minimum wage is meant to be a starting off point... not a living wage. One can argue that there aren't jobs out there so people have to turn to working minimum wage, but that's a jobs problem, not a wage problem. And, I think it's bullshit that the fast food restaurants pay $10/hour in my area, and STILL have a hard time finding workers. But then you hear about people whining about not being able to find work. Pisses me off actually.

hoffse · November 2015

Yeah $15/hour works out to about $30K/year translated to full-time work with 2 weeks of holidays or vacation time.

I think the free college tuition thing should be decided state by state. Plenty of states have lotteries that already fund free tuition at state schools for students who make good grades. You can get a tuition-free ride at GA Tech or UGA if you are a GA resident and keep a B average. That's not a terribly high threshold to maintain. TN has a similar set-up. That's a bargain.

It has the added advantage of making those schools really competitive because suddenly you are keeping talented kids in-state. I personally think the GA Tech deal is one of the best in the southeast. It's an extraordinary school.

If you are making poor grades or take 8 years to graduate, then no, I don't think you should be getting free tuition. A college education is not a right. Most of the states that do the free tuition have carve-outs to limit how many semesters you can get the scholarship.

I also don't think room and board should be free (outside of a scholarship context), because that's something you would have to pay for regardless of whether you are in school or not.

The notion that the feds need to fund public tuition for state colleges is way too top-heavy for me. They already fund quite a bit of it through the GI bill. I have a cousin who is about to start med school tuition-free thanks to the GI bill.

Erikan73 · November 2015

I'm all for working with individuals to repayment plans or interest rates. But hey, they are the ones that picked colleges with such high tuition. They could have started off at community college and save a lot of money while earning an associates degree and then transfer to a 4 year college. I don't believe in free tuition because what's the incentive to do well & not flunk classes because, if you do, oh well, I'll just take it again next semester. If they are paying for themselves & failing a class, it's more like crap, I better get help & do better because I don't want to have to pay for this class again. And if school is free, why would I want to actually graduate? Why not be a lifetime student?

In regards to minimum wage going up to $15 an hour, heck my best friend who has an associates degree in early childhood education doesn't even make that much. If my local McDonald's owner has to pay his employees $15 an hour, he's going to have to increase his prices to cover that. Higher prices mean many customers won't be buying food there anymore because it's too expensive. Less business means, the owner no longer needs as many employees so now they are getting laid off & making no money & then eventually the store probably shuts down completely.

A friend of mine posted an article from an area where they did increase the minimum wage. The workers were making more money, but then asked for fewer hours. Because the problem they were running into was they didn't reform the welfare system at the same time. So now these people were making too much money & were loosing their assistance programs. So to not loose those programs they asked for few hours to make less money to stay on assistance. So a vicious cycle has been created.

brij2006 · November 2015

Sorry, but are these students that dumb?

It's probably just me, but I'm getting so sick of this entitlement generation.

brij2006 · November 2015

This crap fires me up. Do they expect to walk in a job and make $100,000/year after their paid for college is done, or their student loans are magically forgiven?

I think all of this has just gotten to the point of choices. Everyone can make choices for themselves. Whether or not to go to college, whether or not to go to a community college or an elite private school, whether or not to work through school and pay cash as they go or take out student loans. Why should there be a blanket forgiveness for someone who took out $5,000 in student loans and someone who took out $500,000? Then the person who worked their butt off and paid as they went and attended the small junior college, gets nothing.
So that isn't fair to every party involved.

Yet this same people are protesting to increase minimum wage to a blanket $15/hour.

Also, there are 90 year old retirees who put into social security with the empty promise that it will be there when they retire. Yet there is being cut after cut made to them and that, and they're living far below the poverty level.

But this 18 year old DESERVES to have college paid for or their student loans magically forgiven, and to make $30,000/year at their entry level job.

hoffse · November 2015

Yeah and I hate to disenchant anybody, but life isn't fair. Some people are born to privilege. Some are not. Some people have natural talent in sports, music, math, art that helps them get ahead. Some do not. Some people have a lucky break. Some do not. Some people are born in the US with all the rights that come along with it. Whereas others are born in North Korea or in minority populations in the middle east or Africa that virtually guarantees their life is going to be horrendously difficult.

Frankly, the fact that these students are at college in the United States means that they experience a level of privilege that puts them way waaaaay ahead of entire populations in other parts of the world.

I wish they understood how lucky they are to be enrolled in college here. Globally, these students are among the most privileged people on the planet.

They need a little perspective.

EDIT: This is what I mean:

http://www.100people.org/statistics_100stats.php?section=statistics

brij2006 · November 2015

hoffse said:

Yeah and I hate to disenchant anybody, but life isn't fair. Some people are born to privilege. Some are not. Some people have natural talent in sports, music, math, art that helps them get ahead. Some do not. Some people have a lucky break. Some do not. Some people are born in the US with all the rights that come along with it. Whereas others are born in North Korea or in minority populations in the middle east or Africa that virtually guarantees their life is going to be horrendously difficult.

Frankly, the fact that these students are at college in the United States means that they experience a level of privilege that puts them way waaaaay ahead of entire populations in other parts of the world.

I wish they understood how lucky they are to be enrolled in college here. Globally, these students are among the most privileged people on the planet.

They need a little perspective.

EDIT: This is what I mean:

http://www.100people.org/statistics_100stats.php?section=statistics

I really don't think it's disenchanting anyone, it's being truthful and pointing out reality.

Yes, the majority of the U.S. population wants to attend college. That's why so many politicians are able to get votes by touching on the subject. But it's all just rainbows and unicorns.

Take the $15/hour minimum wage for example.
So minimum wage gets increased to $15/hour for every single person in a minimum wage job. Now, you have Bob with a wife and 2 kids, making $31,200/year. Great! He can now support his family. Oh wait, but Bob no longer qualifies for food assistance that he was once receiving, his healthcare subsidy has been cut in half due to his increased income, and they no longer qualify for housing assistance. So now Bob is bringing home an extra $1,183/month (I used Illinois current minimum wage of $8.25), but now he no longer qualifies for $600/month in food assistance, $700/month in healthcare subsidies, and any child care assistance had they used that as well.

So now he needs to find $1,300/month to make up the difference.

Where does this make sense? I only see government subsidies benefiting here, not the employee getting a big raise.

Also, since this will be a blanket increase, someone living in Chicago will try to survive on $31,200/year and so will someone in a rural area. FWIW, H made $26,000/year in our small rural town and bought his house on that, but I received an offer after college for $35k/year in Chicago and had to turn it down because I knew there was no way I could survive on that low of income.

I know they're wanting to make minimum wage a liveable wage, but there are so many people who currently are making just over that $30k/year. Many teachers, for example.

Now they will no longer be considered middle class, and will lumped into lower class/poverty level. All this is really going to do is create cost of goods to go up due to the higher demand (more liquid money in the market) and employees paying higher wages, and jobs to be cut since the small guy isn't going to be able to compete with this.

cbee817 · November 2015

The $15/hr thing cracks me up. I worked 30 hrs a week as a waitress while in college and I easily made $20/hr with tips plus an hourly base pay of $4 from the restaurant. I worked Wednesday night, Friday night, and double shifts on Saturday and Sunday. I had a 3.75 GPA in Mathematics and graduated with honors in 4 years. I got a 50% scholarship from my state school, my mom covered the other 50% (but did not cover any other expenses- car, insurance, books, cell phone, clothing, trips, etc), and I lived at home. Graduated with $0 in SL and $0 in CC debt, got a job at 22 making $35,000 with full benefits, bought a condo that same year, and my employer paid for grad school as long as I maintained a 3.5 GPA and stayed for 1 year after I graduated (MA in Economics).

I made smart choices and it paid off- any 17 or 18 can do the same thing. It was far from rocket science. They need to be smart enough to look past the 4 years of college and realize that this is going to affect the rest of their lives. Make better decisions and take responsibility for your future- it's really not that difficult.

julieanne912 · November 2015

cbee817 said:

The $15/hr thing cracks me up. I worked 30 hrs a week as a waitress while in college and I easily made $20/hr with tips plus an hourly base pay of $4 from the restaurant. I worked Wednesday night, Friday night, and double shifts on Saturday and Sunday. I had a 3.75 GPA in Mathematics and graduated with honors in 4 years. I got a 50% scholarship from my state school, my mom covered the other 50% (but did not cover any other expenses- car, insurance, books, cell phone, clothing, trips, etc), and I lived at home. Graduated with $0 in SL and $0 in CC debt, got a job at 22 making $35,000 with full benefits, bought a condo that same year, and my employer paid for grad school as long as I maintained a 3.5 GPA and stayed for 1 year after I graduated (MA in Economics).
I made smart choices and it paid off- any 17 or 18 can do the same thing. It was far from rocket science. They need to be smart enough to look past the 4 years of college and realize that this is going to affect the rest of their lives. Make better decisions and take responsibility for your future- it's really not that difficult.

I wouldn't say ANY 17 or 18 year old could do what you did. You had a lot of "leg ups" handed to you that made making smart choices easier. Your mom paid for half of your tuition and let you live at home for free. You were lucky enough to live in an area with a university nearby. I mean, my dad died my first week of college, when I was 18. My mom couldn't do anything to help me pay for college as she now faced paying the entire mortgage etc. by herself. We had a community college in town but the university was an hour away. I had friends whose parents expected them to either move out or start paying rent as soon as they were done with high school. So, you were fortunate to have the help you did.

BUT, like hoffse said, sometimes life is just not fair. I was dealt some pretty shitty hands here and there, but the majority of my struggles were caused by the decisions I made. These kids protesting don't want to have to live with the results of their decisions.

HarryCanary · November 2015

When I made the decision to get an MBA, I decided to go to a reputable school and go at night so I could continue working and cash flow some of the costs and get employer reimbursement. I still ended up with ~$44k in federal student loans at 6.8%. After graduation, I doubled my salary and will have my loans paid off this March - 5 years early. There was never a question in my mind about paying those loans. I took them on; they were my responsibility.

I hope to raise my son to make smart decisions about college. To treat it as a business case and determine what, if any, return he would be getting from that investment. This means weighing the costs/benefits of community college, public schools, and/or prestigious schools with great statistics in job placement. Making sure he knows exactly what he wants to study and finishing it on time - take time off between high school and college to figure it out if need be. knowing exactly what job he wants to get upon graduation and what the job market in that area is like. What salary he can expect to make. If he has to take out loans, what are the terms? How long will it take him to pay them back?

I do not believe it is the government's responsibility to provide higher education. I don't even believe that is a parents responsibility (though if their retirement is fully funded, and they are able to help, great!) The costs and benefits of higher education belong solely to the person seeking higher education. I think we as a society need to take more responsibility for ourselves.

I also do not see the benefit of every American citizen having a bachelor's degree. Folks will then have to get master's degrees to set themselves apart and we end up right back where we started.

And don't even get me started on the people who attend for-profit schools...

cbee817 · November 2015

julieanne912 said:

cbee817 said:

The $15/hr thing cracks me up. I worked 30 hrs a week as a waitress while in college and I easily made $20/hr with tips plus an hourly base pay of $4 from the restaurant. I worked Wednesday night, Friday night, and double shifts on Saturday and Sunday. I had a 3.75 GPA in Mathematics and graduated with honors in 4 years. I got a 50% scholarship from my state school, my mom covered the other 50% (but did not cover any other expenses- car, insurance, books, cell phone, clothing, trips, etc), and I lived at home. Graduated with $0 in SL and $0 in CC debt, got a job at 22 making $35,000 with full benefits, bought a condo that same year, and my employer paid for grad school as long as I maintained a 3.5 GPA and stayed for 1 year after I graduated (MA in Economics).
I made smart choices and it paid off- any 17 or 18 can do the same thing. It was far from rocket science. They need to be smart enough to look past the 4 years of college and realize that this is going to affect the rest of their lives. Make better decisions and take responsibility for your future- it's really not that difficult.

I wouldn't say ANY 17 or 18 year old could do what you did. You had a lot of "leg ups" handed to you that made making smart choices easier. Your mom paid for half of your tuition and let you live at home for free. You were lucky enough to live in an area with a university nearby. I mean, my dad died my first week of college, when I was 18. My mom couldn't do anything to help me pay for college as she now faced paying the entire mortgage etc. by herself. We had a community college in town but the university was an hour away. I had friends whose parents expected them to either move out or start paying rent as soon as they were done with high school. So, you were fortunate to have the help you did.

BUT, like hoffse said, sometimes life is just not fair. I was dealt some pretty shitty hands here and there, but the majority of my struggles were caused by the decisions I made. These kids protesting don't want to have to live with the results of their decisions.

Sorry to hear about your dad- losing a parent at that age has to be really awful. I don't know what I would do if I had lost my mom.

I will say, for further clarification, my dad abandoned me when I was 3 days old, still in the hospital, and didn't come back until I was 16 years old- my parents were both 22, just graduated from college, and not married. (Crazy enough my parents actually got married when I was 20 but that story is for another day). So even though I did have a "leg up", I had plenty of garbage too. My mom and I lived with my gandparents until I was 6 because she couldn't afford an apartment. Eventually, she got her MA in education and we moved so she could teach. I was in 4 different elementary schools by the time I was 9, we lived with my aunt and cousin for 3 years while my mom was in pharmacy school, and we didn't own a home until I was 12. So eventually things worked out, but I would say I learned from my childhood and what my mom went through and made sure not to repeat history. To me, it was a no brainer- I did not want that life for myself or my kids.

vlagrl29 · November 2015

Its called being an adult. I don't get any of this. You choose to go to college so you can better your career and make more money. If you don't that's your choice and not a big deal. College isn't free unless you get full rides. Why should someone working at mcdonalds make WAY more than I ever did working as a receptionist? I don't get the $15 an hour thing at all. You raise that, then you have to raise the price of a hamburger. little jobs like fast food are meant for college kids and retired people - they were never meant to be a career.

dragonstarjk · November 2015

Hmmm....there are a lot of generalisms being thrown out here. I don't support blanket student loan forgiveness; I think people who took out loans need to be held responsible for that. However, I definitely think there needs to be some regulation as far as private lenders, similar to what banks have to abide by, so that people aren't over-borrowing. I totally get that students should be responsible and know what they can afford, but the reality is, at 18 years old, if a lender tells you you can borrow $XX amount, the majority of teenagers aren't going to know how to realistically analyze that situation and are going to get in over their heads. I also agree with pps that we could really help by not putting such an emphasis on having to have a college degree. College is expensive. There are a lot of meaningful, well paying jobs that don't require degrees. Our educational focus needs to shift on highlighting all of the alternatives to students as they leave high school.

I support free tuition at public colleges, with restrictions. I think this could be a way to entice people to fill fields of jobs that have suffered, such as teaching and nursing. Obviously, I don't support people becoming career students. I received a PELL grant to attend community college (I could have attended the University but I would have needed a loan to pay for room/board and I chose not to go into student loan debt). If you are receiving government grants for college, you are required to take a certain amount of credits and maintain a certain GPA. I don't see why it couldn't be the same for all students at public schools. Of course, there would need to be a way to pay for it. I don't know what the answer is.

I'm in support of a higher minimum wage where warranted, based on cost of living. I think $15 across the board is way too generalized. However, I live in a state that has one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) minimum wages in the country. I do think it's naïve to assume that minimum wage jobs are just 'little jobs' like fast food. There are hundreds of companies that take advantage of minimum wage rules to pay their employees less, and they aren't just the little fast food jobs. And if you didn't get an education because you chose not to have student loans, chances are you will end up in one of these jobs at some point in your life. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I also find it a little naïve to say 'any 17 or 18 year old' could do the same thing. This is just simply not true. Having your parents pay for part of your college is simply out of the question for thousands of aspiring students. I'm pretty smart; I graduated in the top 10% of my high school class. I got a scholarship to our one state university, but I turned it down because it wasn't a full ride and I didn't know how to pay for everything. I knew I didn't want to go into debt with student loans because I saw my sister do that. I made the best choice I knew how to make at the time, given my background. I went to community college so I could live at home, maintained a 4.0GPA, was president of the honor society, and also graduated with $0 debt. The difference being, it's pretty hard to find a $35K/year job straight out of community college. Again, we all have to make choices. Situations are so different for each person, and I don't think we should generalize any of these things into 'all or nothing' categories. I also don't think we can look at students as a whole and say, it's so easy, just take responsibility, and you'll have it made. It just doesn't always work that way.

csuave · November 2015

I agree with PPs so I won't repeat, but since minimum wage fires me up a bit I will add:

I worked at least 5-6 minimum wage jobs when I was younger. All of them paid a low hourly wage but started above what the state minimum was at the time.
Like @cbee817 I made quite a bit above minimum wage when you averaged out tips made waitressing.
I have seen minimum wage jobs as stepping stones to careers. Best example is my cousin that is a fast food manager. She started there as a teen and worked while at community college. She ended up getting promoted and then became manager and made a career out of it. I don't know what she makes now but she did post on FB how a FF career has provided for her family and been a good job all these years (her husband also works so she isn't the only income). Her daughter also got a scholarship from FF corporate this year. And she is such a good manager that she has won trips to training conferences that included free ipads, etc.

julieanne912 · November 2015

csuave said:

I agree with PPs so I won't repeat, but since minimum wage fires me up a bit I will add:
I worked at least 5-6 minimum wage jobs when I was younger. All of them paid a low hourly wage but started above what the state minimum was at the time.
Like @cbee817 I made quite a bit above minimum wage when you averaged out tips made waitressing.
I have seen minimum wage jobs as stepping stones to careers. Best example is my cousin that is a fast food manager. She started there as a teen and worked while at community college. She ended up getting promoted and then became manager and made a career out of it. I don't know what she makes now but she did post on FB how a FF career has provided for her family and been a good job all these years (her husband also works so she isn't the only income). Her daughter also got a scholarship from FF corporate this year. And she is such a good manager that she has won trips to training conferences that included free ipads, etc.

And that's exactly what minimum wage jobs should be... stepping stones to something better, even if for the same company. I worked minimum wage jobs in high school, and that experience was the stepping stone to future opportunities.

And yes, management in most fast food places is actually quite good. I believe store managers at Chipotle make like $70,000/year, and they promote from within.

kmurphy2131 · November 2015

I always feel like I should be like "yay! student loan forgiveness" but I feel like I made the choice. Granted, my parents said "don't worry it will work out" (which I mean it has...but they don't just go away and impact every decision we make now) so I didn't worry too much. I would make a different choice now for sure. Here are some things that I think should happen

1) ability to refinance to a lower interest rate if you have a good payment history

2) cap what students can take out (as was discussed above)

3) more education on what the impact of student loans are. I had to do an education session to get my loans but it didn't feel very "real life" I think they should lay out information about what your repayment would be, and also information about what kind of a salary you could expect. Maybe even go so far as to integrate what other expenses could be to paint a picture. Honestly I don't know what could realisticaly work, but most 18 year olds (I was overly mature for my age, and I had no idea) don't realize the impact of their decisions and I think they should be better educated.

BlueBirdMB · November 2015

I agree the consensus here. I'm very fiscally conservative and I'm exhausted from listening to people bitch instead of taking personal responsibility for themselves and their families.

My FIL worked 3 minimum wage jobs and my MIL worked 2 when they first came here from India. They never bitched about it for a second or lamented the rate. They worked very hard and eventually created salary careers for themselves.

As for student loans, it's shocking to me how many students and their parents I see who never give college costs a single thought until the first semester payment is due...

Besides that, I 100% agree with @hoffse 's assessment of the rising costs of tuition. The solution is not throw more money at the situation- that will only continue to drive the price up. The solution is to cut the money off. At this point, that is the only solution. Yes, an entire generation will probably get screwed, but after a few years, colleges will cut expenses and drop their prices to match demand.

kyrgyzstan · November 2015

How nice for the people who can use minimum wage jobs as a stepping stone. That was not its purpose. There are millions of people who have to live off those kinds of jobs. Because they were born into a cycle of poverty that people can't just bootstrap out of. For whom these jobs are not a stepping stone but rather the only jobs they will ever qualify for. Read nickle and dimed and stop whining about what's fair because you had to work so hard or you chose community college and were responsible. What isn't fair is that we're in the best country in the world and we have people living in extreme poverty like they're in a third world country.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/f-d-r-makes-the-case-for-the-minimum-wage/?_r=0

BlueBirdMB · November 2015

kyrgyzstan said:

How nice for the people who can use minimum wage jobs as a stepping stone. That was not its purpose. There are millions of people who have to live off those kinds of jobs. Because they were born into a cycle of poverty that people can't just bootstrap out of. For whom these jobs are not a stepping stone but rather the only jobs they will ever qualify for. Read nickle and dimed and stop whining about what's fair because you had to work so hard or you chose community college and were responsible. What isn't fair is that we're in the best country in the world and we have people living in extreme poverty like they're in a third world country.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/f-d-r-makes-the-case-for-the-minimum-wage/?_r=0

You have absolutely zero idea what a third world country is like, I have no doubt. My husband and his family of 4 lived in a small, one bedroom apartment, in a terrible neighborhood while his parents worked their many minimum wage jobs. There was nothing special about his parents. They didn't have money or resources, but they did manage to climb out of poverty without a penny of government assistance. Their life while working minimum wage jobs was significantly better than living in a third world country. My husband finds it greatly insulting to hear any part of this country compared to true third world poverty. People who believe that have had the fortune of living in this great country, never really seeing the outside world. He believes whole-heartedly that this is the land of opportunity for those willing to work for it. His parents sacrificed everything to accomplish their goal of creating a better life for their children, which they did.

From a practical standpoint (and a standpoint proved by history and basic economics), increasing minimum wage only drives up living costs. Eventually those working minimum wage jobs are in the same situation again. Again and again we have seen the proof of this each time we increase the minimum wage. I believe that my home state of NH has the lowest minimum wage in the country. We also have the highest standard of living, a shockingly low poverty rate, and one of the largest middle classes in the country. This isn't an accident.

bmo88 · November 2015

I do not support blanket loan forgiveness, however, I differ than most on this thread regarding minimum wage.

I believe that everyone should earn a livable wage, whatever that is for their area. That doesn't necessarily mean $15 an hour, it will differ depending on location.

Even if you think minimum wage jobs should be "stepping stones" or "temporary," you should still be able to live a life where you can afford basic bills, food and shelter. The reality is that minimum wage has not kept pace with the rise in cost of living over the years.

I find it unfortunate that many people do not support the concept of livable wages. Some people find it difficult to move beyond minimum wage jobs for whatever reason (education, disability, lack of skills, poverty, etc), but that doesn't mean they should have to work full time and not be able to afford basic living expenses.

BlueBirdMB: Actually it isn't true that increasing minimum wage drives up the cost of living. Additionally, New Hampshire probably has a "shockingly low" poverty rate because poor families cannot afford to live there since the standard of living is so high.

I also find it quite rude you would tell the PP that she doesn't know what a third world country is like. You don't know her story or her situation. Also, I work for an institution that serves over 800 children living in poverty on a daily basis. I have been to their homes, visited their neighborhoods, worked with their families and it is quite devastating what poverty looks like in America.

The US may be a first world country, but there are third world conditions is some parts of this country. I have been to homes of children with no running water, no working heat and the equivalent of shed for the living structure. When there are 10 people living in a single bedroom shack, that is comparable to third world conditions. You might think because there is a McDonald's down the street or that you live comfortably that living in the US is automatically superior to living in a third world country, but you are wrong. The difference often is that Americans love helping other countries (which isn't bad), but at the same time they want to pretend like people here don't need help.

The reality is that the infant mortality rate for an African American baby born in the US is higher than an African child born in Africa. So has is that for a "third world comparison?"

Just because you think this country is great and there is opportunity does not mean it is equitable or accessible for all. Your statement makes it seem like if you want it will happen or that someone is lazy or unintelligent if they can't "make it." That may not be your intent, but that's the way it reads. Generational poverty is real and it is cyclical. You may not be familiar with it or see it daily, but it does exist.

Here are some myths and facts about minimum wage:

http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/23/5-facts-about-the-minimum-wage/

Edited to extend my point of view and elaborate.

BlueBirdMB · November 2015

bmo88 said:

I do not support blanket loan forgiveness, however, I differ than most on this thread regarding minimum wage.

I believe that everyone should earn a livable wage, whatever that is for their area. That doesn't necessarily mean $15 an hour, it will differ depending on location.

Even if you think minimum wage jobs should be "stepping stones" or "temporary," you should still be able to live a life where you can afford basic bills, food and shelter. The reality is that minimum wage has not kept pace with the rise in cost of living over the years.

I find it unfortunate that many people do not support the concept of livable wages. Some people find it difficult to move beyond minimum wage jobs for whatever reason (education, disability, lack of skills, poverty, etc), but that doesn't mean they should have to work full time and not be able to afford basic living expenses.

BlueBirdMB: Actually it isn't true that increasing minimum wage drives up the cost of living. Additionally, New Hampshire probably has a "shockingly low" poverty rate because poor families cannot afford to live there since the standard of living is so high. Here are some myths and facts about minimum wage:

http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/23/5-facts-about-the-minimum-wage/

Standard of living doesn't mean cost of living. Standard of living means that you get the most for the money. So no, it means that the cost of living is low. You completely misunderstood my point. We don't make a high income here, but we live nicely for the money we do make. We also always have a low unemployment rate because even small business can afford to hire employees.

So you're saying that if a company has to increase their costs (wages) based on an arbitrary mandate, they won't have to eventually charge more for their product? Because that is what happens eventually. It takes years for things to level out, but it's part of what creates general inflation. $15 per hour would devastate businesses and cause massive layoffs and only further drive prices up.

I think businesses have a responsibility to treat their employees with respect and do all they have agreed to do, but I realize they don't always do this. I think individuals have the obligation to create the life they wish for themselves out of their own accord, but I also realize they don't always do this. I get that there needs to be a middle ground, but people running out arguing that they arbitrarily want their income doubled by government mandate is absurd.

bmo88 · November 2015

BlueBirdMB: New Hampshire's cost of living is higher than the US average: http://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/state/new_hampshire

NH ranks among the top 15 highest cost of living states: https://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/cost_of_living/

Additionally, read the myths about what increasing the minimum wage does to business that I linked before. I didn't say it had to be increased to $15 an hour. I said the amount increase should depend on the areas cost of living.

kyrgyzstan · November 2015

BlueBirdMB said:

kyrgyzstan said:

How nice for the people who can use minimum wage jobs as a stepping stone. That was not its purpose. There are millions of people who have to live off those kinds of jobs. Because they were born into a cycle of poverty that people can't just bootstrap out of. For whom these jobs are not a stepping stone but rather the only jobs they will ever qualify for. Read nickle and dimed and stop whining about what's fair because you had to work so hard or you chose community college and were responsible. What isn't fair is that we're in the best country in the world and we have people living in extreme poverty like they're in a third world country.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/f-d-r-makes-the-case-for-the-minimum-wage/?_r=0

You have absolutely zero idea what a third world country is like, I have no doubt. My husband and his family of 4 lived in a small, one bedroom apartment, in a terrible neighborhood while his parents worked their many minimum wage jobs. There was nothing special about his parents. They didn't have money or resources, but they did manage to climb out of poverty without a penny of government assistance. Their life while working minimum wage jobs was significantly better than living in a third world country. My husband finds it greatly insulting to hear any part of this country compared to true third world poverty. People who believe that have had the fortune of living in this great country, never really seeing the outside world. He believes whole-heartedly that this is the land of opportunity for those willing to work for it. His parents sacrificed everything to accomplish their goal of creating a better life for their children, which they did.

From a practical standpoint (and a standpoint proved by history and basic economics), increasing minimum wage only drives up living costs. Eventually those working minimum wage jobs are in the same situation again. Again and again we have seen the proof of this each time we increase the minimum wage. I believe that my home state of NH has the lowest minimum wage in the country. We also have the highest standard of living, a shockingly low poverty rate, and one of the largest middle classes in the country. This isn't an accident.

You have no doubt, huh? No, I've never had to live in poverty. Yes, there are people in this country who live like I've seen people live in Central America, like my spouse has seen people live in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen it in cities here and I've seen it in very rural areas. Sorry it offends your spouse that there are people in this country who fight for their lives every single day. It offends me too.

BlueBirdMB · November 2015

And just an additional FYI, NH is where those who work low paying jobs in surrounding states (mostly MA in my area) come to live because the cost of living is so much lower. Those who work minimum wage jobs here in NH, live in NH because there is no place close by that has a cheaper cost of living, yet we have a low poverty rate because we haven't driven up the price of living by arbitrarily mandating salaries- that in addition to our lack of income or property taxes. We are often referred to as the "freest state" in the country because of our lack of laws controlling business and individuals.

kyrgyzstan · November 2015

BlueBirdMB said:

And just an additional FYI, NH is where those who work low paying jobs in surrounding states (mostly MA in my area) come to live because the cost of living is so much lower. Those who work minimum wage jobs here in NH, live in NH because there is no place close by that has a cheaper cost of living, yet we have a low poverty rate because we haven't driven up the price of living by arbitrarily mandating salaries- that in addition to our lack of income or property taxes. We are often referred to as the "freest state" in the country because of our lack of laws controlling business and individuals.

NH has no property tax? Uh. Yes they do. That's how they subsidize the lack of income and sales tax.

bmo88 · November 2015

kyrgyzstan said:

BlueBirdMB said:

And just an additional FYI, NH is where those who work low paying jobs in surrounding states (mostly MA in my area) come to live because the cost of living is so much lower. Those who work minimum wage jobs here in NH, live in NH because there is no place close by that has a cheaper cost of living, yet we have a low poverty rate because we haven't driven up the price of living by arbitrarily mandating salaries- that in addition to our lack of income or property taxes. We are often referred to as the "freest state" in the country because of our lack of laws controlling business and individuals.

NH has no property tax? Uh. Yes they do. That's how they subsidize the lack of income and sales tax.

Yep, NH has the third highest property tax in the country.

BlueBirdMB · November 2015

Totally meant sales tax! Mistyped completely. I actually came back to add this about property tax:

One of our biggest issues is that our property tax has been driven up in recent years. We had a democrat congress for several years that started tons of state run programs in an effort to "keep up with the country". We had to continue raising property taxes, which has driven up housing costs. Bigger government over the years has created the higher taxes and has increased our cost of living.

I only talk about my state because I know about it. I know it's track record, history, statistics, etc. I'm sure there are other places with similar records, this is just the one I know about.

hoffse · November 2015

We do have abject poverty in the United States. The major difference between us and the third world is that we have the infrastructure to handle it (in theory), if only that would be a focus. We also aren't war-torn or committing genocide against entire populations like you see occur in certain pockets of the third world. So we do have the advantage of government stability and tremendous resources here, if only we would leverage it correctly.

The current scheme of hand-outs very obviously does not work, but I agree that nobody should starve or die of a preventable disease in the US. I also don't know if the minimum wage can be fully blamed for the poverty we do have. It is clearly not high enough in certain regions, but implementing things like free or low-cost contraception might have a bigger impact on elevating standards of living, so that you have fewer mouths to feed if you are stuck in the minimum wage track for your whole working life.

A flat, $15/hour minimum wage for college students at all public colleges in the nation is ridiculous and in no way addresses the poverty issues we do have. Notice they aren't demanding a $15/hour wage for EVERYBODY, just those who are working on campus, many of whom are the students themselves.

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